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As an interesting item of discussion that gives us all a chance to share some of our varied approaches, I think it would be interesting to talk about our various approaches to learning a new difficult piece.

As as segway, consdering the following:

Do you prefer to start by listening to it, then reading the music, or just having the music?

Do you go measure by measure, or phrase by phrase, or try to play the whole thing very slowly and ramp up to speed?

How much hands-separate (HS) practice do you commit to before putting HT?

Do you start at the top of the mountain (the most difficult section) or do you like to take it purely sequentially?

What do you do when you encounter a technical difficulty?

Do you seek to memorize, and if so what is your approach?

How long do you practice the piece each session, and do you break it up into smaller pracice sections?

Hi gerg,

As per usual, my methods of learning are my own and probably not recommended as the best way to learn a piece:

I usually listen to the piece on cd first, so I can get the tune in my memory. I then start playing through the piece sequentially. If there are tough bits, I skip them and focus on the easier sections. This goes against alot of people's methodologies, and I will explain why:

I find motivation a key factor for pieces that I'm playing. If I'm not making much progress, I'm liable to switch to another piece where progress can be made. So rather than sweating away with a section I can't play (and not being able to play the rest of the piece), I focus on the easier sections - then when it comes to that tough section, since I've made progress with the rest of the piece, it helps me to continue. Its collateral.

[Its like instead of riding a bicycle up the side of the mountain and then coasting downhill to finish - with my way, I'm starting up a hill, coasting down and then having a climb to the finish. I need the momentum to get up that hill!]

I don't tend to do much HS when learning, I like to keep the two hands playing together. Although sometimes i do right-hand only to get a feel for melody.

When encountering a difficulty - skip it, then come back to it later!

Some pieces I can commit to memory easier than others. Some just end up there. Others I have to work to get there.

I used to do longer practise sessions, about 2x1 hour. Now time is a bit more limited, so I'm happy if my butt is on the bench for over 45 minutes per day.

Euan.

Thanks Euan. Sounds like your method is good for keeping you moving. We all probably reach that point where we're not making the progress we'd like That's when we tend to "drop" a piece, and this method seems to prevent that from happening.

I share in common your desire to listen first and get the tune into the brain. I do differ (as of recently) in that I like to attack the toughest sections head-on. Still there is value in your approach - as you said, it provides an incentive: "I've come this far, I can't give up now."

That's very interesting, Euan. I keep reading how you should start on the most difficult bits but I tend to do the opposite as well. I now realise it's for the same reason as you ... motivation to keep working at the piece. I'd never thought about it like that before!

Gerg, I also try and listen to someone play the piece before I attempt it (I usually youtube it). This is because tempo is a real weak point of mine and also, if I lose the melody I struggle badly. I wonder if this is 'cheating' but if I hear the piece first, I learn it SOOO much quicker and I'm a real beginner so I figure it's not really cheating at my level.

I play RH separately just to pick out the melody (it helps me learn quicker) and only separate the hands if I am struggling with a section. I try counting the beats but normally find that HT helps with tempo more than HS.

I am trying to make the most of my practice time by playing on those bits that I'm struggling with but, for motivation, I usually end up playing it from start to finish just so I can feel I'm getting somewhere with it and for the musicality.

If I encounter a real tough spot I keep repeating it over and over but not for too long. If I am still struggling with the same part and not getting anywhere after a week or so, I put the piece away for a while (a few weeks) and come back later. Usually, I find my technique has improved (or I'm starting fresh .. not sure which) and I find it easier.

I need to work on my memorisation. I rely too much on muscle memory. Some parts stick, some don't and I don't like the feeling of never knowing which part will come unstuck for me. I intend to read Chang's book on this but haven't had a chance yet (spending too much time on the internet )

Not offering you too much different from Euan so far but here's where we differ ....
I usually sit for very short stints (5 - 10 minutes) unless I am in a particularly receptive mood in which case I can usually increase to about 30 minutes. I find that my concentration doesn't last much longer than that and my back starts hurting. My concentration is probably very bad though because I am trying to snatch as much time as I can between work, bathing kids, cooking dinner etc.

I also yell out 'in a minute!' to one of my children at least once in every piece. Now that I think about it ... I wonder if I could get through a piece in silence ... best figure that out before I do my first recital

Thanks shimmer. I'm not really looking for advice, just thought this would be an interesting topic on which we can sound off and am curious as to what others do.

I would highly, highly recommend Chang. I cannot say enough good things about his ideas, even if I don't follow his principles to the letter. Esp. for those without a teacher - I would have had no clue about advanced technique like thrust and pull and am amazed by the improvement in my technique. Sounds like you are applying some of his ideas too, even if you've yet to read it: practicing over and over, one hand only, is a technique called cycling, which he's very big on. With that, and parallel sets, you essentially replace the need for Hanon with its real-world equivalent. (Of course, if you or anyone enjoys Hanon, by all means continue it - just recognize its limitations.)

Practicing with kids around is actually a good thing in the sense it teaches you to ignore distractions (within reason hopefully ).

Nice topic gerg!

I always start at the beginning and work my way through measure by measure till the end. I don't struggle through measures, if its a piece I want to add to my repertoire permanently, i memorise each measure and get them up to speed in groups of 1,2,3,4 or 5 depending on their difficulty, and then move on once they are at a decent level.

Its odd, but I feel bad when I skip to different parts in the music and not learn it sequentially so I guess I ride on a mountain akin to a rollercoaster!

I only pick pieces to learn that I know I like, so I have always listened to a recording first. And when I'm working on a piece I will often sit and listen to it repeatedly, following along with the sheet music.

I'm like Euan in that I will always try to start off HT, slowly, and then work my way up to tempo. I don't consciously try to memorize a piece, but it usually happens as a result of repeated practice.

One tactic I've introduced recently is Cooke's idea of "setting a fracture." I don't start off with the most difficult section (that's usually too discouraging for me), but in the past I'd play a piece once or twice all the way through and that would be it for the practice session. Now, after I've played through it, I'll take a minute or two playing just the troublesome bars, often slowing it way down, in the hopes of getting the hard parts nailed.

Out of mercy to my family, I rarely play a piece more than two times during a practice session.

hi nice topic, it's always nice to see how other people learn and maybe adopt some of their methods.

I start out by reading my music like a road map. I see what key it's in what flats and sharps it has. I also tend to highlight dynamics so I don't miss them when I start out the piece. I'll mark it up before my lesson if it's a new piece.

Then as of late I play through it hands together slowly while sightreading with my teacher. She'll point out anything that I didn't do correctly.

I don't listen to the piece beforehand if I'm not familiar with it, because part of my exhiliration is the surprise and pleasant feeling I experience when I've fashioned some music of something I've never heard before. that's just me though, I like to experience something new.

I'll continue at home playing hands together but if there's a section that's hard as long as I can play the rest easily I'll play the whole thing one time, then concentrate on the hard measures for the rest of my practice that day. Once I'm satisfied with those hard measures, then I'll put it all together.

I don't memorize intentionally but if I'm on a piece for more than a week (Italian Song Tchaicokvsky), I tend to memorize pieces of it and what I started doing lately was memorize the difficult measures and look at the keyboard so as to get the fingering right. I never never looked at the keyboard before then, but lately I started to glance at it for difficult measures and jumps and it's working out great. The rest of the time I'm looking at the sheet music for reference although I noticed that I'm not concentrating on it like I was when I was learning it. It's just a focal point for me now.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I like the challenge of learning things I've never heard. I enjoy that "I really like this" moment that comes when you start to play something new and discover it's really quite beautiful (though of course you do get some "I really don't like this" moments as well!).

As for learning, like Monica and Euan, I always start off HT, and like stephenc I always learn pieces from beginning to end. But if it's something I'm finding difficult, I'll play it through from the beginning when I start working on it, and then isolate the section I'm having trouble with and just work on those measures. Then when I finish with that piece for the day I play it from the beginning again.

As for time, I'm usually lucky to get 45 minutes practice a day, but I warm up with my 'finished' pieces, spend 10-15 minutes on technical stuff (scales, arpeggios, any pieces I regard as etudes rather than "for fun") and then dedicate the rest of my practice to the pieces I'm working on. I might spend all of that time on one piece or work on a couple - it depends on my mood and how the practice goes.

Donna

I' not familiar with the book by Chang referred to by gerg. I've check Amazon but can't find anything. Sorry to slide off topic but could someone give me more information on this? It looks like something I need to see. Thanks...

Here ya go.....

http://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

It's free on the web:

Chang book

[edit] aw, man... gmm1 beat me to it! I must be slipping!

i usually selected a piece because i heard it and like it. but once i decide on learning it, i usually (currently) read through a page or two to see how it is before getting into details, and i'd listen to some recording of it if i have it.

it all depends on difficult level of the piece. i don't do it in slower beginner process anymore, i.e. go 1 bar after another. i'd work on each phrase at a time for relatively difficult pieces. for easy piece, i'd read through the whole thing a few times, if it's short. for larger pieces (5-10 pages), i usually concentrate on 1 or 2 pages first before moving onto others.

for some difficult/challenging piece, i do HS only for a few times, basically for working out some fingerings, and then as soon as each hand gets familiar with the fingering i choose, i do HT. for some easy piece/passages, however, i do HT right away, because there's not much fingering consideration involved.

i usualy go by sequence, from beginning to end, but occasionally will do difficult section first.

for me, it's basically repetition or adjustment with movement/fingering if it's not working out well with my original fingering choice. if the difficulty is mainly on one hand, then repeat or work on one hand only.

yes, i do, but it usually will be in my memory after repeating so many times. i usually keep reading notes during the learning process, and eventually i don't have to look at music anymore.

i almost always take breaks (many in fact), after playing a while, especially at the learning stage, because after working on a passage for a while, my concentration will go downward and then i'd just walk away for a while.

What I do when first starting something is go through the whole piece as close to the right tempo as I can to find out how it feels so I know what to aim for. As I do that, if certain sections jump out at me as difficult, I mark those (using Cooke's "fracture" method). I also mark off sections for general practicing; I've been trying to memorize everything I learn, so I use these sections for memorization. They might be only a few measures long.

After I've done that, I practice the fractures first, HS, slowly, using whatever techniques work. I'll do this in every practice session, but not spend the whole session on it. I'll then move on to my other small sections to start to memorize and learn the piece; this kind of practicing I usually do starting either from the beginning or the end (I like memorizing the end of a piece first, so I really get into my head where it's ultimately going).

As far as listening goes, I like to listen to recordings after I've worked on the piece a bit, because then they mean a lot more to me and I'm able to listen more carefully.

I don't have a lot of time to practice; most days, it's usually about an hour at the most. Right now I'm working on several different pieces that are in different stages of development. I try to spend a good portion of practice time on the newest piece, but it varies, depending on how I'm feeling that day. I try not to do too much "playing through"; instead, I concentrate on the shorter sections and play those many times. When I have a piece completely memorized and am trying to get the flow of it, I do more play throughs than when I'm first learning it.

Those are the basics of the way I've been practicing the piano for the past couple of years. Specifics kind of depend on the piece.

Like Kemble, I'd rather play something from the music instead of listening to others play it first. If I hear something on the radio, or in a recording I like, I'll write down the name, and then research the piece until I find it. By learning the music on my own, it becomes part of me mentally and emotionally.

When I start working on something, I'll read through it first, kind of like doing a sightseeing tour first, to get an idea what I'll be in for. After that it's slow practice HT unless there's a sticky spot that requires more focus. After I've got all the smaller pieces comfortable, I then aim for a complete play through and then focus on tempo, dynamics, etc. Later on, once the elements are in place, I'll start memorizing if necessary.

I've been using this method since I studied quite a number of years ago.

John

Like so many others, I listen to the music first. Well, to be honest, I already knows how it goes since it is usually a piece by Chopin or some other well-known classical composer and something I've heard a zillion times or more.

What I would like to relate this is. I've just recently discovered that my practice approach was totally wrong (at least for me). What I would do is play the piece from beginning to end, over and over and over and over.... I might probably play the difficult parts a few times, but I'd go back to playing it from start to finish. And sure enough, those difficult parts would still be difficult the next time I played. And it seemed as if it took me FOREVER to learn even the shortest piece.

Just since I started learning the 17th prelude by Chopin, I realized my practice method would NOT work. So, I did what so many thousands (millions) of people do. I took small chunks at a time. I have to start at the beginning. It's just the way my mind works. Like I have to start cleaning the house from the second floor, way in the corner of my bathroom, and then continue on in a counter-clockwise direction to the first floor...maybe in another life, I was a mouse caught in one of those spinning wheels.

With this prelude, I HAVE to literally go measure by measure. So far, since March 1st (30-45 minutes a day), I've completed about 25 measures. (I'm talking big chords in both hands, one hand over the other...in many cases). This is far greater progress than I would have made my old way.

Just shows to prove you're never too old to change your tune.

Kathleen

Great topic! I've been learning mostly classic blues pieces for the last little while. As a result, the whole momentum for the piece is in the LH, so I start with that until I've got it right, at tempo. With only a few exceptions including the piece I'm currently learning, this takes a couple of hours, tops, since the LH is usually simple and always ostinato.

Then I play the RH a few times, just to get the feel, and try the whole thing as fast as I can HT to see where the trouble spots are. I'll isolate these, plus a bar or so East and West, to maintain phrasing integrity and repeat HT until they're smooth.

Then it's try the whole thing as slowly as necessary for no mistakes or hesitations, speeding up until trouble, then the trouble spots over and over until they're OK. Eventually, the whole thing comes together and I work on the groove, trying to make it swing.

I'm about to start Bach's Invention #1, though, and I think I'll need another method. I always listen to a song before I play it, but the invention isn't sticking in my aural memory so well as the blues tunes. I reckon I'll start RH alone, slowly with a metronome, and try to imagine the LH parts as I go. Then I'll do the same for the LH. I'm thinking to ignore the ornamentations until I can slog through HT, and then work on them separately in the context of a bar or two. I'm expecting a few months on this, so we'll see how it goes. In about 2 months, I'll have a teacher comment on my progress .

I'm with Donna. I'm following a technique mentioned in a sight reading book.

Always HT. Play from start to end at as fast a pace as possible, slowing down at difficult parts. I let the piece "surprise" me, then decide if I like it or not. Max three attempts per day on any one piece. Don't linger longer than four days.

Which means: 1. I don't perfect any pieces. 2. I need to find pieces that are easy enough for me to play and not get totally stuck and frustrated.

That is an interesting and fascinating angle - the question of what it is exactly that makes the music "yours."

The Blues will be far easier to remember than Bach. The former likely has many notes in chords, so much of your memorization is on the rhythm, which itself will be more regular. You can tap your feet to jazz/blues but would have a difficult time doing so to a Bach Invention - different parts of the musical brain involved.

I like your proposed approach for the Invention BTW.

Very easy to do with Chopin! It's exhilarating to play one of his works, even if imperfectly, and you just want to play it again... It is a temptation.

Looking at my score that is the entire first page. For just a week or two@30-45m/d that is wonderful progress!

A new thing I'm trying is taking the music (just a stapled printout) to bed with me lieu of a book, studying the notes, playing it in my mind, imagining the fingers playing the keys, before giving it serious real-world practice time.

This is an experiment.

Because my left hand is weaker (as with most people, at least right-handed people), when I do HS I always start with the left hand. This is also because the left hand is harder to memorize (b/c it generally does not have the melody). You might want to try doing what you say here but starting with the left hand.

Thanks for the advice, gerg and Piano again.

What exactly makes the music mine is that even though I've heard the piece once, I am not focused on how the other person played it, and I am now reading the music first hand and internalizing it. I am not focusing on how someone else is playing the work and being influenced by their interpretation.

If a piece I'm working on appears on the radio, I will change the station rather than be influenced by the other performer. It's only after I'm satisfied with my performance, that I will then compare what I do to someone else. In many cases I'm dead on, and in others I ask myself "Why did s/he do that?" There are cases too where I'll realize that I missed an important phrase in a bass line for example, and I smile to myself when I hear something that the other performer is doing that I missed out on totally.

The other thing too is reading and learning unrecorded works, or those that aren't heard very often. I've learned many new works this way, and discovered many lesser-played works by famous composers. There are for example, many sonatas by Domenico Scarlatti that we never hear. They are just as great as those that have been played in the concert venue, but never seem to make it on to the stage because they aren't as famous.

Perhaps this is also because of my ability to hear music in my head as I read a score I've never laid my fingers on or heard before. This doesn't include hearing the individual notes, but the key signature that the piece is written, and includes the tempo and dynamics as well. The process of getting the music from my head to the keyboard is a different matter.

John

You and I share in in common a strong dependence on "music memory", and maybe keyboard memory.

I know that I am a horrible sight reader, but I'm okay with that because once I "have" the piece all I need the score for is refinement - accents, subtle dynamics, voicing, etc.

Since I have not applied your "listen denial" doctrine but am playing what I heard on LPs as a young boy, I tend to choose performers to try to emulate - Abbey Simon and Artur Rubinstein are among my favorites, though Schnaubel is also quite good. Unfortunately (or fortunately) that music - much of it Chopin - that I listened to over and over again while young tends to dominate and color my own interpretations. In the case of Simon it spells lots of extra work on rigorous attention to speed, force and tempo; for Rubinstein more of that work is applied to touch, "color" and inner melodies. Naturally I'll never approach their level, but it is a good bar toward which to strive.

So for me it isn't really an option to "shut out" others' interpretations, and most of what I hope to be able to play in my lifetime is already in my head. In that regard, I envy the liberty that you have.

Interesting Topic!

I've just recently (March) started reading Chang\'s book online and have therefor changed my practice sessions tremendously. It is making a huge difference in my playing.

When I start a new piece I will listen to a recording if I have one. I'm not good enough to copy a professional pianist so I don't worry about his/her influence on my playing. I might change that when I become better.

I start by sight-reading HT as much of the piece as I can to get a feel for what needs a lot of work and what I can probably pick up just by playing through a few times. I usually try to get the first page somewhat playable first if it's a longer piece, just so I can feel like I accomplished something...

Next I go to the hardest section I came across in the sight-reading step and drill it HS until I can play both hands (separately) up to tempo or as close as I can get. Sometimes I work on a few measures this way, sometimes (Bach's Invention #6, pg. 2) I'll work on a whole page HS. I try to work on all the phrasing and articulations HS since I can focus more on just the one hand. I'm also (recently) memorizing the piece HS while drilling.

Finally I try playing the difficult section HT, slowly at first in groups of 3 or 4 measures. Then I link the measures together until I'm through the hard section. Whew!

I spend about half my practice time (30-45 mins) doing this for the piece I'm learning, then the other half spread among polishing something else up, sight-reading, and just playing for fun. I'm also trying to work on only one hard piece at a time, and keeping any other new pieces at a level or two below the hard one.

That's about it. Sorry for the rambling!

That was a good ramble! Your approach is similar to what I've adopted since becoming familiar with Chang. The temptation to hear the piece HT is often too great to wait until HS can be played 1.5 times final tempo, but the thesis of the superiority of technique acquisition HS seems to have practical merit.

Everything I've picked up from reading Chang has improved my playing A LOT. The parts of my practice that differ from Chang just haven't been changed yet. I'm still in the process of reading it, but I really like what he has to say so far.

I agree it's awfully tempting to play HT before you can play HS at 1.5 times final speed. I broke down and went HT while still at about 90% of final tempo HS. But what an improvement over the old way of "start at half speed HT and slowly ramp up the tempo over the next two months"!

I've been using Fake Books..but this creates a problem in itself..so I have been playing just using my memory of the tune..and I find that the key the book uses is not the key my ear believes it should be in..so much for Fake books! however they are a useful learning tool in using other keys/chords..

Another Chang fan here. Before reading this book I really never could just sit down and play anything. I needed the music and I never polished anything. Since adopting Chang's methods (only since Christmas), I have already improved a lot. Hands separate practice, cycling, difficult parts first - these have made a lot of difference for me. But the biggest improvements have come from memorization. For me, this is huge. I memorize the piece before starting to practice it. It's hard but it works! At the end of the same amount of time as before, I have not only learned to play the music but have it memorized as well. There's more to it than just this of course and I haven't even begun to do everything he suggests. I keep re-reading the book picking up more with each pass. It's a great book. And it's free.

Go figure.

When you know the piece in your head, you can focus 100% of your effort on technique. You can play fast. You are not interrupted by page turns.

And in focusing entirely on technique you can identify and attack just those areas that are weak for you using cycling.

I really like his view on "speed walls" and appreciate his can-do attitude.