for what it's worth, I think much of it has to do with tempo. At any level, it takes time to build up tempo.
One might be able to come up with a decent solo @180bpm on a tune they've never played before, but a good solo?
Likewise, if someone plays a solo at 60 bpm, they are much more likely to play what they hear, and that they want to play.
The second part of the equation is really imitation and transcription. This is what gives the tool to play what you hear.

It's a big mistake to play too fast, I think. For some reason, some folks can't seem to be satisfied playing a great solo slow. It has to be fast. When it sucks, then they say 'I suck'. well ...

Well you know I disagree with that, K.

60bpm is very, very hard. At my early stages I don't think I could solo at that tempo. There's no feel of a groove. Obviously 180bpm is not a beginner level but 120 is.

We have a big difference here in approach. I'd rather play fewer notes at 120 then try to play 8th notes at 60bpm. For one it is easier. Second, the groove is a big part of the feel and 60bpm is a ballad feel.

And as I mentioned long ago, articulation at 60 is different from articulation at 100 and 150. At 200 you're playing Classical articulation really.

Since my past teachers always started making me solo between 100-120, then it couldn't have been that unusual. But it doesn't answer the reluctance to improvise since no one here is suggesting that a beginner start at 200.

BTW K., at the beginner level, are we really shooting for someone to achieve a "good solo"? It's hard enough for an advanced musician to achieve that.

At the beginner level, the improvisational goal is typically to just "make the changes". That to me is the baseline. And as far as I'm concerned (any my teachers in the past), these could all be quarter notes and half notes. That didn't seem to limit Miles Davis.

Telling a beginner that he/she has to create a good solo without pre-composition is a heavy burden. Besides, even to evaluate that is subjective since we all have different tastes.

Someone from the Wynton Marsalis school would feel differently from the Chick Corea school.

I disagree. Playing anywhere between 60 and 80 is far easier than playing at 120. And it will allow anyone to choose his or her notes more carefully.
I define good solo by 'as good as one might be able to play'.
There are so many ingredients that make a great solo. But a beginner might just play with one or two at first. Slowly over the years adding more ingredients.
As a beginner, digging into Louis Armstrong's solos is a great listening exercise. Lester Young also.

I guarantee playing at 72 is easier than playing at 120. In fact, I don't think anyone should start playing at 120 until they've really mastered the changes and their solos at much slower paces. I think waiting a year or 2 before reaching that tempo on a simple tune is reasonable. However, once one touches 120, it isn't that far a stretch to reach out for 200.
When talking about 8th notes, which should be the beginner's favorite ingredient, 120 is a performance tempo, while 72 is a great practice tempo.

Improvising is so difficult by itself, that adding any kind of complexity to it will make it fail. Talking about dim chords and subs is great, but those are ingredients someone may only add after they've mastered the basics. Or else, your brain will think too much. It takes time to internalize.

>> Telling a beginner that he/she has to create a good solo without pre-composition is a heavy burden. Besides, even to evaluate that is subjective since we all have different tastes.

That's not really what I would tell anyone. However, I might recommend a few things to start :
1. pick an easy tune
2. play slow
3. play 2 measures at a time. Move on to the next only once you have mastered those 2.

Really, if you pick a tune like A train, and only choose to play 2 measures of it, and play it at 72bpm, it makes the job a lot easier. Once 2 times 2 measure have been mastered, it's impressively easy to make it 4 measures.

These tips are better described in Metaphors for the Musicians. But one should really spend a few years on the 1st couple chapters. I understand it's hard for people to have that kind of patience when all the cool modal stuff is at the very end ...
He recomments playing at 20bpm. I think that's a little slow . But if you do try it, your sense of time will really improve.

Have you achieved playing at 200bpm Knotty?

It is a VERY BIG jump to go from 150 to 200. Although one could play at 60 bpm. I doubt if any beginner could articulate well at 60bpm or have the time/rhythm to play it well. I'd expect they'd be stuck there for years.

Even today, it is very hard for me to play 200bpm. My real comfort level is probably 180bpm.

Since 2 of my prior my teachers are at higher level than Randy Halberstadt, I wouldn't necessarily accept his comments as carved in stone.

I think there are some very bad habits in swing that could occur if playing consistently at 60bpm. It could reinforce the typical over-articulation in swing. It teaches that swing is consistent at all times. I wish it were that simple but it isn't.

Besides the tempo isn't realistic. It's ok as an aspect of practice. But to ONLY play at 60bpm?

Like I said before though, someone like me, who started at 100bpm had to learn 60bpm, though later. I started at 100 and worked my way to about 140bpm.

Then it was a later project to work myself up to 200bpm and down to 60bpm. Frankly 60bpm is still difficult articulation for me though obviously easy to come up with notes. 200bpm is a different problem. The ideas have to come ahead of the fingers. That's very hard to get your ear to that level. Besides, at 60bpm, I'm mostly playing tripletsso I'm still mostly at 180.

It's only recently that I'm able to maintain up tempos. Before, I could only do it in bursts before I lose focus.

>> Have you achieved playing at 200bpm Knotty?
yes.

>> It is a VERY BIG jump to go from 150 to 200.
Depends on the person. I would say it is a big jump to go from 72 to 144. It's double the speed.

>>I doubt if any beginner could articulate well at 60bpm or have the time/rhythm to play it well. I'd expect they'd be stuck there for years.
You are stuck for years anyway. There's no doubt in my mind that slower is easier.

>> Since 2 of my prior my teachers are at higher level than Randy Halberstadt, I wouldn't necessarily accept his comments as carved in stone.
Don't accept anything as carved in stone. I'm just pointing out he writes better than I do. And while Ornette Coleman is a great musician, have you listen to him give advice to students? It's not about how well you play but how well you teach.

>> That's very hard to get your ear to that level. Besides, at 60bpm, I'm mostly playing tripletsso I'm still mostly at 180.
You mean 16 triplets?

Perhaps telling a beginner to start playing at 120 and play short phrases or 1/4 notes would work. But that's not the path I would advise.

Well since we have arrived from two different directions, then it would seem that there is no one way.

But at one year, I recorded several tunes at medium swing some of which I posted here. It's like saying everyone is denied that with your method. I think I'd get too frustrated. I'd probably rather stay at 100bpm for years.

In the end, all the articulation problems have to be solved in any method so it balances out.

BTW - when I first started, I was playing written music at a faster tempo. Maybe 150. It's a different thing to achieve playing written music vs. soloing at a faster tempo consistently. As I said, one is a brain thing. One needs to come up with the notes faster than the fingers.

When I play Giant Steps at 240bpm, it sounds so mechanical. There's no time to come up with interesting lines. I can do it now but it's interesting to compare what comes at 160 vs. 240.

hey, you got an FP-7F? how's do you like it?
I'm still stuck with my old yamaha, the screen's dead ...

Big improvement from the P155! The action is fantastic. Just like playing the grand with ivory keys. The modeling they do on these new pianos is amazing. Much, much more control.

The piano tone isn't my favorite but it's not my top priority. I think this piano is really going to handle classical well. For Jazz I had to tweak it so it will stand out in a trio.

I've had a fantastic practice session with this. I can't play the grand all the time due to noise and my P155 was like driving a truck. No finesse.

I got a fantastic price on this. I sold my two keyboards (P155 and XS6 - which is getting picked up today) so in the end, I end up with extra cash

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all you jazzers out there!

Thanks wee. Happy Christmas to you too. Take it easy hehe !

Ho Ho Ho!! Merry Christmas to all! Just played a gig and then had a nice turkey dinner.

I know what I want for X-mas, a new Bechstein! I played several, some uprights and a grand, right next to a few Fazioli's, and I still preferred the germans. Man what a gorgeous tone.

May this humble beginner in piano suggest that "we" should shoot for a beginner to make music. Doesn't matter what speed, complexity, or whatever. A good solo has first got to be music.
Perfect copy is for personal practice. The focus of personal practice should be discipline. Through that discipline, a person improves their skills and frees themselves to play music.

Ron,

Welcome to the forum!

I don't think anyone will argue with you that a good solo has to be music.

But we're narrowing it down a bit. JW and I are in agreement about a few points, I think. For example.
- The music must be improvised. One could learn a Wynton Kelly note for note, and that would be a great solo, but that's not the goal.
- The music must swing.
- It must have solid time.

How you achieve this is the big question.

I agree discipline is key, but discipline without guidance doesn't get you far. I will always recommend getting the best teacher you can get. I know JazzWee and I are pretty lucky on that front.

Short of that, this thread will attempt to answer just about any specific question.
Some topics will always create arguments. Not all teaching methods will suit all students.

What's your background? Did you pay another instrument before?

Ron, it is hard to argue with your point since that of course is what we want to do.

But there's really different points that we are focusing on at least in the discussion of "initiating" the move to improvise. I'm thinking mostly of the reluctance to start doing it.

At this early stage, trying to intellectualize what one should play would be a death knell. The first step I think is to play and not be judgemental upon oneself. It's a mental barrier at first. Improvisation is very personal and exposes oneself. It is natural to have fear since one thinks everyone is judging what one plays.

But the worst judge is oneself.

What is "good music"? Is it to play a continuous stream of 16th notes like Chick Corea? Or are the 2 notes in C-Jam Blues enough? My point here is that at the beginning, just let it flow, whatever it is. Think first that there are no wrong notes.

There are specific things to practice for sure. Chord tones. Good time. Swing. But this is practice.

I think that once a person improvises at whatever level, it is easier to give them advice on how to move to the next step. The most difficult seems to be the first step. Without something improvised to listen to, all the talk of what to play is just theory. We all hear music our own way IMHO.

Thank you Knotty. I look forward to learning much from you all. I know nothing.

I have played Coronet, and Sousaphone. Fooled around with guitar and harmonica. Recently found that I can sing. Working on that now. Tried paino twice before. Finances fell apart both times and had to get rid of my digital pianos. At one time I was an audiophile. Learned then what junk was and started appreciating classical and other real music then. Seiji Ozawa! I was spoiled with a recording of his orchestra doing Beethoven's 9th. Nobody else can do Beethoven like Seiji does Beethoven.

Basically Knotty. I've lived two lives. Almost died 7 years ago. Now I do things instead of being entertained. I think more with my heart now...understanding. Can pick up on more sophisticated movements in music without too much problem. But these have been just small parts of a piece.

Piano is to me my decision to get serious about music. Don't have a wish to play or sing for others. Would only be interested in true criticism from people like you. That's all. Otherwise, music is for my own enjoyment.

One of my favorites is the minor Blues. I had learned that the Blues were developed by Jazz players. Jazz has done much for music. It's about creativity. Highly trained musicians who can't allow themselves to be parrots.

Jazzwee, you and Knotty are so right! I'm the one learning here. I appreciate your back tracking in your discussion for my sake.

I'm just trying to input from the beginners point of view. Even though I can see you both understand that very much.

More often than not. Too many of us are trying to perfectly copy. Doesn't matter whether it's from a sheet of music, or by ear. Just that frame of mind of copying can't result in music. When we relax, and focus on music, put our heart into it, feel it. Then we have the frame of mind that will easily improvise.

Ron,

That's great that you've decided to play. I hope you enjoy the journey.
What jazz musicians are you into ?

Ron, you sound like the perfect person for jazz. Let it flow from within. Keep us updated on your journey!

Tell us where you are so we can help you go to the next step.

BTW - when I first wanted to learn jazz, I had no intention of playing for others. But it gets to the point where (a) you have the skills to do it, (b) you care less about what others think

gee knotty... that's kinda a tough one for me..
More into listening to different things and liking this and that. Perhaps part of a song. I listen to things and think that I'd do it different. I like dynamic range. Not really into anyone. Do spend time on different internet radio channels. Can say I like....

Diana Kroll...
Alfonso Blackwell... a sax player... particularly his: "Hermina".... very special.
Have been listening to Nat King Cole because my voice is naturally close to his...amateur training. I like him too.
Was spending much time listening to Christelle Berthon.... on youtube...harmonica... highly trained musician...plays all kinds of music.

Thank you both. I feel a little guilty in that I have hijacked the thread for a bit. Didn't mean to do that.

Consider me a beginner. Need to relearn music reading, notation.
Have decided to wait and get the piano I really want this summer. A kawai ep3.
So followed some advise and bought a second hand 5 octave non weighted keyboard. (cheap) I can improvise and get to relearning music for now. And look forward to my beloved Kawai.
I have to admit jazzwee; Respect your opinion. I'm more open to a Roland after reading your reasons for owning one. I do have garage band. So can manipulate the sound. Do you have an opinion on Roland's key action versus Kawai's?

Hey Ron, no worries on hijacking. We've changed topics on here often enough.

I'm not familiar with the Kawai EP3 but it seems to be more entry level. What's your budget for later? The current generation of Stage Piano DP's are excellent. They have made a nice jump in playability from the prior models. This family includes the Yamaha CP5, CP50, Roland RD700NX, FP7F, Kawai MP10. These are modeled pianos so if you can afford them, these will give longer term pleasure. The Rolands, Kawais and the CP5 have wood or woodlike action so they are really good for developing chops.

Whatever you get, I would pick something with good weighted action. If you are on a budget, the Casio CDP-100 is great. Most of the weighted Casios are good and reasonably priced. I had a CDP-100 for around $299 before (it broke already). These are excellent starter pianos.

Then between this range, there's a lot of options, mostly from Yamaha.

If you're on a budget, used maybe more bang for the buck.

I'm looking at spending a thousand. Probably end up stretching it to fifteen hundred. Doh!

Yes the ep3 is the lowest Kawai. From what I've seen. Am thinking it is the simplest DP Kawai can make without losing Kawai's standards in performance. I love Kawai's opinion on sound.

I really like the choice I have made in improvising with a simple keyboard for right now. Have too much going financially right now. Can look forward to what I really want. Also not concentrating on a new "toy" to play with. Concentrate on learning right now and looking forward to a real instrument without disappointing lacks in it.


The one time I did try a roland. Have to admit the key's were beautiful...feel and all.

I can be very picky. Have extremely good taste. Piano has the ability to make a statement with a single note like no other instrument.

Well if you can stretch to $1500, I'd suggest the Roland FP7F and the Yamaha CP50. We have some sources that are cheaper than what you see on the net. To me the old style sampling just doesn't cut it. And I'm the pickiest...

I can't believe I missed it. Last Monday was the 3rd year anniversary of this thread!

Keep swinging!

This is my first post. Congrats jazwee on 3 years. Shows amazing commitment.

I played traditional Irish mandolin and decided that I'd like to learn something new on my mandolin. Decided that jazz was where it was at. Not much help out there on mandolin for jazz so decided to learn jazz through another instrument and apply it to mandolin. I went to see Brad Maldow with a friend and my choice of instrument was made. Came across this thread and my source of learning was also complete.
Kids had a cheap piano €100 casio so now I am a three week beginner. Of piano and of Jazz.
If I write anything here I will keep it piano but very interesting to apply your lessons to mandolin as well.

I have the charlston rhythm 17 and melody up to 92 beats at moment and have started noodeling so just a beginner. Still at the stage where autumn leaves is the background music to my dreams. I'm sure it will ware off the dreams eventually.

All involved (not just Jazzwee) I salute you for your service to mankind with this thread.

Happy Birthday all

Wow BAC, what a story! Nice to have you here and keep us apprised of what happens as well as ask questions when needed.

You also win the award for NEWEST POSTER since the 3rd year anniversary

I was passed this today and I thought it was relevant from a prior discussion.

Quote from Bert Ligon (author of several jazz books)



http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/transcriptions/JARRETT%20EXERCISES%20b.htm

I'm just passing this on because this is how I learned how to do it for myself.

I hadn't read the Bert Ligon article (?), thanks. Interesting - my teacher has basically the same outlook on improvisation.

I've never tried to transcribe anything (thinking this is very tedious). I'm still working on learning all the foundational stuff so that I have more and more things under my fingers, so to speak, to pick and choose from.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the more I can work on altering chords & harmonies, the more ideas that will eventually give me when (and if ) I get to the point of doing some kind of improvising.

3 year anniversary!! Thanks - this thread has helped me tons!