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#1010980 - 02/21/08 08:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Rosa, that sounds so cool. Were you reading the bass line, or do you have it all memorized?

I have not yet tackled a walking bass.
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#1010981 - 02/21/08 01:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
This time, it is continuous bass line for Autumn.

http://www.box.net/shared/tcskaes08g

This was really fun to do.

Rosa \:\) [/b]
That's pretty amazing Rosa! That's very difficult to do.

Now you have to sound like a real bass player so make sure those bass notes are legato just like a real double bass. For extra swing effect, accent beats 2 and 4. This should be an easy change for you.

Before you only Elssa tried Walking Bass. To develop this skill requires more and more agility to do stuff on the RH while the LH does it's thing and keeps the beat going. Most people can only do simpler solos on the RH when walking.

Congratulations! One more medal
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#1010982 - 02/21/08 01:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Back to the solo practicing, I think it is important to master the jazz articulation/swing more than picking the right notes.

I know Barb has been focusing on it and now that I've posted an example, I hope that everyone tries short solos, even pre-written, just so we can refine the swing feel.
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#1010983 - 02/21/08 01:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee - I've been working on jazz phrasing with the Miles Davis tune Solar. The piece is short \:D , and has a good mix of eighth notes and quarter notes. A couple of weeks ago you asked that I concentrate on increasing the contrast between the downbeat and upbeat by softening the downbeat. I tried to do that here.

http://www.box.net/shared/3cbogz7cw0

I find that it is easier to work on specific areas of phrasing when I am not soloing. Of course, I am still aware of the phrasing issue when soloing, but the distraction of finding those notes is always present. ;\)

Please let me know if I am heading in the right direction with legato, accented eighths, and detached quarters. Eventually, I want to trick my RH by adding the LH on beat 1. I haven't yet added the LH at all while soloing.
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#1010984 - 02/21/08 01:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
This tune I would probably drag the melody more. I have to go to a jazz lesson right now but maybe I'll see about recording a little Solar for you to compare.

I don't have the music in front of me, but I recall playing Solar with opposite accents. Are your accents in the right place? Or are they off by an eighth?
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#1010985 - 02/21/08 01:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
westarm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 63
Loc: Indiana, USA
i'm moving along more slowly, but don't fully understand lesson 3.

jazzwee, you say:

Am7 (LH fingers 51 playing 1/7), D7 (LH fingers 32 or 21 playing 1/3)

Edit: (Note that 21 works better in Am7 and 32 works better in F#m7b5.)


but how can i play a 1/7 with the 21 fingering unless it is inverted?

sorry for being so dense.
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#1010986 - 02/21/08 02:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee - Thank you for the prompt feedback. Hope you're having a GREAT lesson right now. \:D

I tried to put a heavy accent on the "and" of the beats. The piece begins on the "and" of 2.

This piece is a lot of fun. I do want to learn it as it should be played. I'm very much looking forward to hearing your version.
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"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010987 - 02/21/08 04:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Barb, I just got back so just a quick note. There's a Solar by Keith Jarrett on Youtube and the melody on that gives you a good flavor (although he modifies it a little).

Westarm, I'll read on that lesson later and see what you're talking about.
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#1010988 - 02/21/08 05:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by westarm:
i'm moving along more slowly, but don't fully understand lesson 3.

jazzwee, you say:

Am7 (LH fingers 51 playing 1/7), D7 (LH fingers 32 or 21 playing 1/3)

Edit: (Note that 21 works better in Am7 and 32 works better in F#m7b5.)


but how can i play a 1/7 with the 21 fingering unless it is inverted?

sorry for being so dense. [/b]
Westarm, don't vary the 51 fingering on the Am7 or the II chord in general. This will affect your motion to the next chord. The most important finger is the 5 (pinky) which should be on the root. As you get more advanced finger 2 may end up on the 7th (because the thumb has to play something higher).

As a general rule, fingering is decided on based on not just what you are doing but where you are going next. Using 51 (Am7) then 21 (D7) preserves the shape of the hand to quickly go to GMaj7 which is only a step away.

Using 51 and 32, the pinky is still free to move back to Gmaj7. So in general you don't want to tie up pinkies and thumbs so they can't go to the next position. This applies to soloing too, which is why in soloing we try to have a very open hand position and use all the digits.
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#1010989 - 02/22/08 01:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
More recordings requested by Barb to demonstrate jazz phrasing/articulation.

Solar Head (150bpm)
http://www.box.net/shared/kyvebwksos

Donna Lee Head (170bpm)
http://www.box.net/shared/q8q5f9l44w
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#1010990 - 02/22/08 03:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
OK, I promised myself I was going to post something tonight. So here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/51h46bdc8w

I'm really not feeling it tonight. No MIDI Rosa, I hope that's OK. I don't think you want to emulate this one...

Still trying to work on phrasing and note selection. I don't think I hit as many wrong notes as last time. I tried to put some chromatic elements in there too. Don't consider this my submission for the Chromatic Oversight Committee though ;\)

I'm really struggling with the half/whole scale though. It works fine for me over the D7 and F#mb5. But over the B7b9, I can't seem to deal with the G# there. So, I've been going to G on that if I'm in the area.

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#1010991 - 02/22/08 03:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
You see, Deeluk there is an advantage to posting because what YOU think is your problem actually IS NOT \:D

First of all, this is another major step for you. For the most part, I can hear the chord tones on the non-dominants and I can hear the altered notes on the dominants. So this is fantastic.

Secondly, you have a very nice swing touch. That I've said before.

Great job!


The only part where the scale was clearly off was in the | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | turnaround which should be D scale and then C scale (too short for doing altered scales on those dominants).

I think that Rosa's going to want MIDI's so she can emulate this one too \:D

Later on I'll listen to it for more finer things to take it to the next level but even when you go on vacation, you improve.
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#1010992 - 02/22/08 06:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
GREAT show everyone -- Barb, Jazzwee and Deeluk for your solos.

Yaaaay Deeluk!!! Sometimes, it is strange. When we think it is lousy, it turns out GREAT. When we think it is GREAT, it is LOUSY. We are not always the best judge of ourselves.

I don't want to take your time away from your piano, so only IF you can do it in midis very quickly -- YES, I want to see how you do them. THANKS in advance. (I am getting smarter -- I ask when you wake up, not when you go to sleep for you 'must sleep.' Hee Hee)

Jazzwee, here is my continuous bass LEGATO.

http://www.box.net/shared/mnjog72sc4

It is very difficult do accent the 2nd and 4th beat because my mind tells me I want to hear that change of chord on the downbeat, so I want to hear that 1st beat loud instead.

Rosa \:\)

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#1010993 - 02/22/08 08:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee - Thank you for posting your recordings. They will be very helpful. \:D

Deeluk - You amaze me. You are a natural at the swing feel. Yup - Deeluk, "a natural", along with Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett, Brad Mehldau. (You better print this out again - you're in the same sentence with those other jazzers )

Rosa, you're walkin' away with that bass of yours. Excellent work!

Keep posting everyone. It's very motivating.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010994 - 02/22/08 08:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Thanks Barb.

Here I just use my LH for the walking bass swing.

http://www.box.net/shared/otg4iqi8sk

See if I am accenting the 2nd and 4th beat rightly.

Maybe a bit tense since I had to concentrate.

Rosa

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#1010995 - 02/22/08 08:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Rosa - yes, I heard those accents on 2 and 4. You're working hard tonight. Good job
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010996 - 02/22/08 11:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
OK, MIDI file of the above:
http://www.box.net/shared/nahwk7xgkk

I vow to not judge my performances when I post anymore. Apparently, I'm always wrong (thank goodness). That was like my 20th take last night. It was really late. I didn't even really listen to it before I posted other than to verify that there was noise coming out of my speakers.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! JW, I sorta forgot about the turnaround tips you gave us (D and then C). I think I was playing G through that. Oops. I could have still been fumbling through whatever I was trying to play over the B7b9 too.

My focus this time was to get it right for the main changes of the tune. I'll start trying to concentrate on the turnaround as well. And of course, the accents. I'm still trying to get to the hard-swingin style similar to your most recent post.

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#1010997 - 02/22/08 01:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Thanks Barb.

Here I just use my LH for the walking bass swing.

http://www.box.net/shared/otg4iqi8sk

See if I am accenting the 2nd and 4th beat rightly.

Maybe a bit tense since I had to concentrate.

Rosa [/b]
Good job Rosa. That's correct but I can see your tension there when you forget to go legato on occasion.

The only change I would suggest is that you use lower registers. That's why a reversing up and down motion is usually desirable so you stay near the first octave.
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#1010998 - 02/22/08 04:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Deeluk - You amaze me. You are a natural at the swing feel. Yup - Deeluk, "a natural", along with Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett, Brad Mehldau. (You better print this out again - you're in the same sentence with those other jazzers )
[/b]
Awww, shucks. Thanks so much Barb. Now I have two little certificates hanging on my wall with my name right next to the masters. You better stop though, I'm gonna start getting delusional. Hey, you have a full-blown diploma on your wall! Graduated, with honors. We should be thanking you for still hanging around with us freshmen. \:D

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#1010999 - 02/22/08 09:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Here's another try at swing.

. http://www.box.net/shared/xuvhm0u4gs

I've tried to arpeggiate, use chromaticism, and throw in the half/whole and half dim scales.

I'm having a hard time thinking D scale with that progression of Em7/A7. I think in terms of the chords at that point. If I think of the D scale, I invariably end up with a non chord tone on a downbeat. Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Deeluk, I am still a freshman trying to find my way. You have motivated me to dive in once again and post another solo.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011000 - 02/22/08 09:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Here's another try at swing.

http://www.box.net/shared/xuvhm0u4gs

I've tried to arpeggiate, use chromaticism, and throw in the half/whole and half dim scales.

I'm having a hard time thinking D scale with that progression of Em7/A7. I think in terms of the chords at that point. If I think of the D scale, I invariably end up with a non chord tone on a downbeat. Has anyone else experienced this problem?
[/b]
Nice work there Barb. How about some longer 8th note lines? Like maybe a 2 octave run or something? I had fun experimenting with that. Maybe you will too. [Please take my suggestions with a large grain of salt. Jazzwee is the ultimate guide, of course.]

As far as thinking or hitting downbeats when you get to the turnaround, I hear 'ya sister. My brain has usually gone out to lunch at that point. I'm lucky if I can reign it in at the right time and hit a few proper tones. As you heard in my last attempt, I was on the G scale through the whole thing instead of playing through it properly. Making it through the F#m7b5 - B7b9 progression taxes me and playing something intelligent after that usually eludes me. I need a lot of work there. Baby steps. We'll get there.

So, I guess I'm farther away from where we need to be on the turnaround than you. At least you've got it in your mind where you -should- be. I'm usually fumbling along randomly there.

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#1011001 - 02/23/08 01:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
This time I changed my bassline a bit so as to keep to the lower register of the keyboard.

I played along with the whole song to get the feel of the continuous bassline.

http://www.box.net/shared/8powhx5cso

While the LH can only go legato at the moment, (hopefully it is) I wonder if my RH is still swinging rightly.


Rosa

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#1011002 - 02/23/08 01:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Here's another try at swing.

. http://www.box.net/shared/xuvhm0u4gs

I've tried to arpeggiate, use chromaticism, and throw in the half/whole and half dim scales.

[/b]
OK Barb, your turn first.

I'd like to see longer eighth note lines and lines that cross over more than one chord. Otherwise we don't get the development of the swing feel. Again it's not a matter of complex notes. You can repeat a lot of the same notes if you want. Think of the many notes in Donna Lee. Now that's a bit too much but think of a series of let's say around 8 eighth notes. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

How do you think of this? First develop some lines (pre-compose) over a II-V-I progression. Maybe over II-V, or maybe over V-I. To get a quarter note swing feel, have more than one quarter notes in a row. That will allow you to do detached.

Pre-composing is not a bad thing. If you precompose a hundred different variations you'll be in good shape.

Remember when Kangamangsuk, pre-composed? He sounded great. This is to build vocabulary. Later on you mix it up.

Until I see enough notes in a row, it's hard to analyze the swing. Hope this helps to get you going.
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#1011003 - 02/23/08 02:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
This time I changed my bassline a bit so as to keep to the lower register of the keyboard.

I played along with the whole song to get the feel of the continuous bassline.

http://www.box.net/shared/8powhx5cso

While the LH can only go legato at the moment, (hopefully it is) I wonder if my RH is still swinging rightly.


Rosa [/b]
Rosa you've done quite a good job with this in a short while. The things that you need to work on are still losing the legato and the 2/4 accent. Remember, you're the bass player and a bass does not play staccato \:D It's the quarter note pulse that sets the groove. BTW- the 2/4 accent will drive the swing later even on your RH. Now here's the diffioult part, in some discussion between me and Barb, we discussed delaying the RH a little. This will be more important in a walking bass kind of line. This is a long term project, just keep practicing this but I recommend you get back to the soloing in the meantime.
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#1011004 - 02/23/08 02:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
This time I changed my bassline a bit so as to keep to the lower register of the keyboard.

I played along with the whole song to get the feel of the continuous bassline.

http://www.box.net/shared/8powhx5cso

While the LH can only go legato at the moment, (hopefully it is) I wonder if my RH is still swinging rightly.
[/b]
Is my RH still swinging rightly.... \:D Funny. Ah, it's Rosa hour huh? I don't think I heard a single mistake in there. Nice job playing the walking bass over the whole tune. Not a simple task, that. I'll let jazzwee analyze your swing feel. My ear is still in training ;\)

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#1011005 - 02/23/08 02:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
OK, I promised myself I was going to post something tonight. So here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/51h46bdc8w

[/b]
Deeluk, as promised, ideas to take it to the next level. You really took those chromatic runs to heart and I have to say they sound great and jazzy. Now remember that runs like that can go up or down. You're only going up. Or you can go back and forth. Remember that when you go chromatic, you will stick with a chord tone on short runs anyway so usually you don't to think much about it.

All of you might want to practice doing a chromatic scale with swing. Does everyone know how to do a chromatic scale up and down? And then accent the upbeats? That will get tricky initially. I recommend that some time be spent on this. Then go back and forth in a short span of time.

The other thing deeluk is shoot for more accent. You're swing is very good now so heavier on the accent and then try varying the length of the accented note (which will straighten it out a little). Learn to drag your line a little.

Finally for your homework, let's stick some broken chord/arpeggiations in there. I don't mean an actual linear arpeggio but using intervals of a third. For example on a Am7 you could do (eighths) E C E G (quarter) A

This will break you off a strict chromatic run. And provide a variation.

In real soloing you end with a million variations. Here we have a contrast of two basic shapes.

You have progressed so far here. Can you do your soloing with the initial melody too so we can hear how you swing the melody? We'll see if you can drag it as Barb learned a couple of weeks ago.
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#1011006 - 02/23/08 03:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Yikes! I'll have all of those assignments done in a couple of weeks. Maybe months. See you guys then. ;\)

On the chromatic stuff... you said do a chromatic scale up and down.... and then accent the downbeats? Downbeats?

Thanks for the assignments. I haven't practiced the dragging thing yet at all, so, we'll see how that goes. And with the melody? I think I've forgotten the melody at this point. ;\)

Seriously, do you mean mix my solo lines in among the melody (please no)? Or, play the melody and then solo on the chorus? I have tried throwing little fills in where the whole notes are. That doesn't always work out so well though. \:\( The melody usually ends up dragging, but not in a good way. Like by half a measure or something. Back to trying to stick too many notes in I suppose.

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#1011007 - 02/23/08 09:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Onto Lesson 6 Solo Piano 2+3 Voicing

http://www.box.net/shared/61qoaaog88

Jazzwee, can you explain a bit more how doing this 3-5-9 can help us solo? Specifically the part where you said that this full voicing takes advantage of voice leading.

Is the point of this lesson to help us put the 9th into our playing?

So if I play the melody tone above it, I already encounter problem right away in the first phrase going to Am

LH: A G
RH: C E B A

That 9th tone B clashes with the melody tone A, so what do I do here?

Rosa \:\)

Once I finish this lesson, I will get back to solo improvisation. Yes Deeluk....get going with those assignments so that I can emulate your midis....Heee heeee. You are doing very well, that's why you're given lots of assignments.

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#1011008 - 02/23/08 09:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Pre-composing is not a bad thing. If you precompose a hundred different variations you'll be in good shape.
[/b]
ALL RIIIIIGHT!!!!! I never thought of precomposing. This is going to be fun \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

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#1011009 - 02/23/08 01:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Onto Lesson 6 Solo Piano 2+3 Voicing

http://www.box.net/shared/61qoaaog88

Jazzwee, can you explain a bit more how doing this 3-5-9 can help us solo? Specifically the part where you said that this full voicing takes advantage of voice leading.

Is the point of this lesson to help us put the 9th into our playing?

So if I play the melody tone above it, I already encounter problem right away in the first phrase going to Am

LH: A G
RH: C E B A

That 9th tone B clashes with the melody tone A, so what do I do here?
[/b]
Rosa,

I think the key to this lesson is that these are chords intended for use in a solo piano situation. Or as comping chords. It's not to get the 9th or 13th into your solo improv lines. They are lush full chords that sound jazzy. You'd play these, for instance, while another band member is soloing. Or you can mix them in with the melody. Like play the first melody line of the Am and then hit the chord over the D7. The voice leading just means that you don't have to move your hands around so much to move from one chord to the next. Not only does this make it easier to play, it sounds better. Hope that helps a bit.

Edit: that should read play the melody line leading to the Am and play a chord over the whole note that would normally ring through the Am bar. Then, play the line over the D7 and hit the chord on the Gmaj. Etc.

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