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#1227748 - 07/06/09 01:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
i know smile

right now, i can see the image in my latest post (#1227703), but I can no longer see the images for my previous posts. I could see them earlier.

I suspect it has to do with google picasa. It's a pain to have to host the image somewhere then link it. Box doesn't give direct URL, unless you pay premium.
What's weird is I can even see the images in my RSS feed, which shouldn't be logged in to google. Google can be too smart sometimes. Let me fiddle with it some more...

pictures are really cool, it's so much easier to explain stuff on the sheet than C F B etc...

Why can't we just upload pictures directly ??

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pOCUCC2NuQ-LqMNcAK1oDA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_x4ExpzXShlM/SlIbmOWv_HI/AAAAAAAAAKU/DHF6i5zIHDU/s144/jazzwee1.png" /></a>


Edited by knotty (07/06/09 02:02 PM)

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#1227753 - 07/06/09 02:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Knotty, you can use Photobucket. That was my sample MOYD image.
The links may appear for you because you have rights to the link on your computer.
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#1227754 - 07/06/09 02:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Funny, I replied earlier, but my post doesn't seem to have appeared.

So far so good, next question, if I am dragging the beat, do I drag everything? Do I drag the RH but not the left (my percussion)? Do I drag all my quavers along too (whether I am swinging them or not)?

'Good time' sounds like another phrase to be added to my vocabulary jotter. Where I come from, it has another meaning. smile
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#1227757 - 07/06/09 02:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Tlt, that has to be the quote of the day:

So long as you have good time, you'll have a good time.

Jazzwee, will try photobucket.

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#1227761 - 07/06/09 02:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)


here we go. Let's see if this works

Was wondering if that's what you meant by triplet Vs straight 8.

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#1227763 - 07/06/09 02:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
TLT, I hope you are having 'A GOOD TIME' practicing Good Time smile

Dragging means dragging everything yes. As I said, whatever it is you do, you must do it consistently. Sometimes dragging and sometimes not will sound like you have Poor Time.

Realize that 'Good Time' is kind of a musician slang. In conversation. "Hey man, your time is good...". I don't want someone slapping my fingers with a ruler and correcting me with the term GOOD RHYTHM. Not a cool cat term. smile

Another slang -- cats. Surprisingly, still in use and originated during the jazz era.
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#1227765 - 07/06/09 02:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Knotty, I don't have notation software so I can't post music. But maybe create this for me. Show a bar with a series of dotted eights + a 16th.

Like this:

Example A. Triplet Feel
|8. 16 8. 16 8. 16 8. 16
vs.
Example B. Straight Eighths
|8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8|

Notice that in Example A, each pair of eighths is played like a triplet.

8. 16 uses the same amount of time as
16 16 16

Hard to make sense of this without notation...

Edit: '8.' is a dotted eighth. '16' is a sixteenth note.


Edited by jazzwee (07/06/09 02:18 PM)
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#1227767 - 07/06/09 02:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
TLT, I hope you are having 'A GOOD TIME' practicing Good Time smile


I was about to say, they're not mutually exclusive....
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#1227770 - 07/06/09 02:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)


tell me you can see this.


Edited by knotty (07/06/09 02:24 PM)

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#1227771 - 07/06/09 02:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Way to go Knotty.

I see it.

Plus, I'm having a Good Time reading the posts here. grin
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#1227772 - 07/06/09 02:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Clear as day, knotty.

Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs


I was about to say, they're not mutually exclusive....


... on the other hand, if I had too much of a good time, I might not be able to keep Good Time! shocked
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#1227773 - 07/06/09 02:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Quote:

8. 16 uses the same amount of time as
16 16 16

you meant same as
8 8 8 triplet?

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#1227779 - 07/06/09 02:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Quote:

8. 16 uses the same amount of time as
16 16 16

you meant same as
8 8 8 triplet?



No I messed up. I meant

8., 16
uses the same time as
8, 8
or
16, 16, 16, 16

with the dotted eight being the 3 16ths.


Edited by jazzwee (07/06/09 02:56 PM)
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#1227787 - 07/06/09 03:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Funny how any discussion reverts back to swing...

Because of course it is the most difficult part of jazz. So leaving 'good time' for a moment (but never too long), here are some discussions on swing that highlight exactly what I've been saying here.

http://www.visionmusic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=243&view=next

http://www.banddirector.com/printarticle/learning-swing-feel

As much as I try, I know swing can't really be put into words. But the words help to clarify what one is listening to.
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#1227995 - 07/07/09 04:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Very helpful, especially the second one.
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#1228848 - 07/09/09 08:46 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Stabby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 84
Question from a beginner. I know next to nothing about music theory. I've got a music theory book but it's too much to read it all. Which theory should I focus on first for jazz piano?

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#1228852 - 07/09/09 08:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Here's my last contribution before I go away on holiday in a few days. I decided to take a break from Autumn Leaves and I've been looking at this instead:

http://www.box.net/shared/utku8xc9vx

It's the Groove Blues by Snidero, also played by Knotty earlier. I've been living, eating and dreaming this over the last few days, and I don't mind saying it's harder than it sounded at first. Listening to myself I realise I was rushing the metronome a couple of times, but I think it's without any major mistakes.

Recorded on my new toy! smile
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#1228856 - 07/09/09 09:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
TLT -- Excellent! Do you have the music for that, or did you transcribe it all? I worked on that piece in my Snidero book.

Great job -- I was groovin' right along as I listened. thumb

Barb
_________________________
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#1228863 - 07/09/09 09:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
oh well now, you've been busy! That was really good.

I'll make a few comments:
- first off that piano sounds REALLY good
- Your left hand was completely in control throughout, and you played it nice and light.
- I liked the metronome on 2 & 4
- Not playing with the track is a lot harder that with it. So kudos for that. I am sure you're finding that playing along to Washington & Irwin makes it a lot easier to get the groove going.
- Your first 2 bars were great, then you rushed the other 2 a bit, then back on time, then rush. That's ok that you're realizing that. That's exactly what you want. Be conscious when you rush, and when you're in. Jazzwee's article above talked about that.
- In the 3rd chorus, you played your notes staccato. That's not very common in jazz. Not idiomatic as they say. Keep your notes long and connected. The 4th chorus was much better to that extent.

That's a lot of good work in a very short amount of time!!

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#1228864 - 07/09/09 09:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
listening back to mine, I notice I play the 3rd chorus with short notes like you do. I believe I play it slightly behind the beat which is probably the difference.

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#1228872 - 07/09/09 09:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
blush blushblush

Thanks guys!

I normally take much more time over learning something. It still doesn't feel in any way comfortable, and I know it needs to be faster.
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#1228940 - 07/09/09 01:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]
Stabby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: Stabby
Question from a beginner. I know next to nothing about music theory. I've got a music theory book but it's too much to read it all. Which theory should I focus on first for jazz piano?

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#1228955 - 07/09/09 01:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
That was a great job TLT, best yet. I think it was swinging fine and you phrased it correctly (Knotty -- detached on quarters is idiomatically correct).

Now where would I improve on this? First, I would play a Charleston on the LH. You did not do it here and this is where it fits perfectly. Learn to time the Charleston to 2 and 4 and it will give you a nice impetus.

As I said in my lesson, the #1 problem is 'Good Time'. Without good time the swing is lost. you're swinging is just fine and it will sound good once you get the time a little better. It wasn't just middle rushing, it was off from the beginning. So tap you feet to beat 1 and 3 so you subdivide. And maybe sing the the beat in your head while you play. (I'm not good at scat words but something that divides into quarters like ga-ga-ga-ga or doo-bah-doo-bah).

Now is this improvised or is it written music? I'm going to assume it's not improvised.

BTW - TLT, it's fine to skip AL and go to blues. Same thing at this stage of the game for swing and LH comping. AL (or some other standard) is the only way to go though for 2+3 voicings and rootless and such.

Tempo is perfect. I wouldn't speed it up at this stage until your time gets better. It's harder to play slower.


Edited by jazzwee (07/09/09 01:48 PM)
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#1228958 - 07/09/09 01:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Stabby
Originally Posted By: Stabby
Question from a beginner. I know next to nothing about music theory. I've got a music theory book but it's too much to read it all. Which theory should I focus on first for jazz piano?


Stabby - do you know all the major scales? That's absolutely #1 on the theory discussion. Then there's a theory section in this thread. See if you can absorb that.

Beyond that, you must know and memorize what this means:
Root,b9,9,#9(b3),11,#11(b5),5,b13,13,b7,7

I believe a lot of this is explained in theory section of this thread.

Unfortunately, jazz is all about music theory. You will need to learn more music theory than a classical player. So eventually, you will need to learn everything.
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#1229053 - 07/09/09 06:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Thanks jazzwee! Yes this was from written music and I was very focussed on getting it *right*. I played the rhythms as they were written. In many ways it was a bit beyond me, but that's fine, I'll just keep plodding until it begins to feel natural. There's been much talk here of rootless voicings, but this is the first time I've come across them (at least, that's what I think they are).

I needed a break from Autumn Leaves - I was getting bored with the way I was playing the tune.

Like I said, I'm about to go on holiday, so will hopefully come back refreshed!


Edited by ten left thumbs (07/09/09 06:34 PM)
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#1229057 - 07/09/09 06:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Stabby - There is, as you realise, a huge amount of theory to take in. But you can't just sit and read it all. You want my advice?

Don't sit and read. Learn your theory at the piano. Play it, listen to it, teach your fingers how it feels, all at the same time. So, for example, you sit and learn a major scale. That's good practice for your fingers. Now notice how the notes progress - sometimes there's a whole tone between notes, sometimes just a semitone. Listen to that interval, notice how it sounds. Be able to tell the difference between two notes played together that are a whole tone apart, and a semitone apart. Learn an arpeggio, and you will learn the 3rd and 5th intervals too.

There are all kinds of aural-learning packages out there which will help with this.

I can't tell you which bit of theory is most important. It's all important. But I can tell you that if you aim to integrate your understanding of theory with developing your muscial ear, then you won't see theory as a dry subject. You will see how it is there to develop your musicianship. smile
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#1229069 - 07/09/09 07:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Quote:

Unfortunately, jazz is all about music theory.

I think that ought to be restated. Jazz is about creating beautiful music.

I don't think you need to know much theory at all. I think you can just learn it as you go.

More important is ear and technique. Without either of those, you're not going very far.

Do learn your scales smile

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#1229077 - 07/09/09 07:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Sorry. Rephrasing: Jazz is not all about theory but Jazz needs a lot of theory.

Doing things like Reharmonizations and substitutions and even basic things like playing ii-V-I's need understanding of theory.

Playing a tune like Giant Steps is very difficult melodically for example. A lot of it has to be intellectually based.

Doing various voicings requires a lot of theory, etc.

I was reading a book on Dizzy Gillespie and how he and Charlie Parker started Bebop. What was amazing, outside from the playing was all the "Theory" discussions they were having, together with guys like Thelonius Monk. Coltrane, Miles Davis, Gil Evans understood theory to a very, very high level and showed in their compositions. Miles is of course from Julliard. Bill Evans developed the rootless voicings and various reharmonizations with a solid command of theory.

Is it the only part of the formula? Obviously not.

But if the Leadsheet says you need to play G7#5, you will need to know what it is NOT literally G7#5 and that it probably assumes ALT. If someone presents one with an Em7b5, then you better know what scale to play on that.

Now if one just stuck to something simple like the Blues, then theory is not too important. In my Jazz studies, my theory knowledge is assumed.

A beginner though can get started just knowing the major scales and this for each scale:
Root,b9,9,#9(b3),3,11,#11(b5),5,b13,13,b7,7

(BTW - Stubby, those symbols above are just the identifier for each half step for each Major scale - 12 steps in total). If you memorize that, you could construct any chord. There's an actual lesson in here about that.
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#1229093 - 07/09/09 08:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
right, but if Bird had huge theory background, his technique was beyond belief.

Someone with amazing technique and no theory at all could play like Bird. Not the other way around.

Quote:

If someone presents one with an Em7b5, then you better know what scale to play on that.

I'm not so sure about that.
What you need is to understand the melody, hear the changes, and play something that sounds good on top.
I'm not so convinced scales on top of chords are the answer.

So I'd say pick up the theory you need as you need it. There are a lot of folks who don't know the first thing about reharmonization. They just hear something they like, and play it. I think as a beginner, you can go on for a long time with very little theory.
Then you start analyzing what's going on in the great stuff that you hear. But the understanding comes after the hearing and the understanding.
If you cannot hear it, or play it, you will not be able to apply it, it 's good for dinner conversations smile

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#1229119 - 07/09/09 08:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I think the point I'm trying to make is that theory will become a tool to help you understand and memorize what to play.

Ask a jazz musician what notes he just played, he usually does not remember. Ask him what he played and often, it's about theory. And often, it will come with a reference: So and so plays this kind of stuff on that record.

So you listen to Ella. You like, you play. You know the chord is Dbma7, you analyze the run she's using on top of it. Then you remember that Db minor pentatonic sounds cool. And that becomes a favorite of yours.

If you attempt the other way around:
"A Train" start with Dbmaj7, now I read in that book that the pentatonic works, let me try. It will be a much harder path to sounding good.

Same for your own stuff, let the sound guide you, then by all means try to understand why your stuff works, and memorize it that way.

As far as the original advice to Stabby, I agree 100%. Scales and chords. Practice them both, a lot.

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