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#1242590 - 08/03/09 12:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina

Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Sometimes I wish you were right next to me as it is so easy to show this in person than to describe in words...

Thank you, Jazzwee. It was not a snippet, but the entire printed exercise. That is what I like about the Baerman book -- things are short.

I will most definitely be working on that swing ratio.

Plus, I will be on the next flight out to So. California. Pick me up at the airport grin
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#1242612 - 08/03/09 01:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Confession time!

I don't know Donna Lee. I've heard it a couple of times, but it's been so fast I can't grasp onto anything. I have the sheet music for it, from 7notemode's site.

I've got out of the habit of playing scales. Funny that! laugh I did know them once, and they come back to me when I call them. But I should practice them again.

I don't actually possess a metronome. I have an amp, with metronome setting. It has a knob on the top with 3 markings: 30, 120 and 240. I generally play with it somewhere between 30 and 120, and twiddle till I get it right.

I don't know what diminished scales are.

Financially, things are pretty tight, and my piano playing is simply not a family priority, so a whole bunch of things (like a metronome, the real book, the Levine book, the Snidero book, BIAB) are just having to wait. Unfortunately, trans-Atlantic plane tickets also come into this category. wink

This might be a good time to let everyone know where the quote in my signature comes from (as nobody has asked, that either means you know, or you don't know). This clip made a great impression on the younger me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgfZVNv6w2E
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#1242641 - 08/03/09 01:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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TLT, that's funny! So Zoot is your jazz influence? smile

Fortunately, you can survive with 120bpm. It's a pretty good metronome setting actually for a little slower swing. Great for beginning stages. There are plenty of on-line metronomes too if the computer is nearby.
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#1242665 - 08/03/09 02:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
TLT - I never asked about the quote in your signature line -- I figured you made it up.

I've decided that my new jazz idol is Zoot! Bill Evans has been replaced by a blue haired muppet. 3hearts
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#1242719 - 08/03/09 03:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Zoot had good time. The note is perfectly placed! smile

I've seen online metronomes, but the computer is in another room. Now, I could set up my laptop, but life is too short somehow. I just don't feel the need to know exactly what speed I'm playing.

Now, I've just read what Wikipedia has to say on the subject of diminished scales.

I'll quote:

There are two types of symmetric diminished scales. These scales are sometimes called octatonic scales because they utilize eight tones. They are based on a series of alternating half steps and whole steps. One type starts with a half-step (H-W-H-W-H-W-H-W), and one starts with a whole step (W-H-W-H-W-H-W-H).

Because of the repetition of the interval pattern after only two notes, each note in the scale can be a root in another symmetric diminished scale. For example, the C symmetric diminished scale of the half-step-first type, is composed with the same notes as the half-step-first type E♭ scale, and the whole-step-first type D♭ scale:

C symmetric diminished: C D♭ E♭ E F♯ G A B♭ C

E♭ symmetric diminished: E♭ E F♯ G A B♭ C D♭ E♭

D♭ symmetric diminished: D♭ E♭ E F♯ G A B♭ C D♭

All three are composed with the same group of notes: C D♭ E♭ E F♯ G A B♭ C D♭ E♭ E F♯ G A B♭

In fact, all symmetric diminished scales are composed with only three groups of notes.

Endquote.

Which sounds reasonable, except it doesn't tell me what the assymetric type is. Maybe I shouldn't ask. I'll just be grateful that there aren't half-diminished scales too. wink
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#1242732 - 08/03/09 04:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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Sorry to disappoint, but of course there are half diminished scales. It's called the Diminished-Whole Tone scale. smile

Which leads me to remember the Whole Tone scale. Although I don't see why this has to be specifically practiced as a scale. It's just half all black notes and half all white notes (and vice versa).

In Jazz we are concerned about Half-Whole Diminished, and Whole-Half Diminished. But the scales are the same they are just different starting points so technically there is nothing different to practice.

We're only talking about practice here. Application wise, this is a big topic in itself so that's for much later. But no need to wait on the practice.


ALL diminished scales are symmetric.


Edited by jazzwee (08/03/09 04:13 PM)
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#1242771 - 08/03/09 05:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
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Loc: Scotland
I knew I shouldn't have asked. Half-whole and whole-half I can understand. Will have a go tomorrow.

Whole-tone we did in school. But I never really saw the point in it.
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#1242818 - 08/03/09 06:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

Whole-tone we did in school. But I never really saw the point in it.


grin Someday you will (if you haven't given up by then!)

As a clue, it's good for Dom7#5 chords. But the only point to practicing these scales is because the diminished scales have completely different shapes and ones that you will encounter in improvisation. If you can do fast diminished runs while maintaining a legato sound, you'll be way ahead, technically speaking. It's harder than a regular major scale.

Diminished scales BTW are played only with fingers 1,2,3.

I'm not telling you to practice scales so you can do runs during improvisation. That is not cool. This is just a technical exercise.
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#1242836 - 08/03/09 06:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
while you're at it, you might want to learn your minor scales. Those minor ii v I do come up once in a while.

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#1242862 - 08/03/09 07:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Minor scales come up a lot! In fact it's in AL. But the major scale and minor scales are the same though. So technique/fingering wise it's the same thing. Mentally though, you're right. One needs to be able to instantly identify a relative minor.
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#1242867 - 08/03/09 07:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
hey jazzwee,

love the mehldau video that you posted where he is playing all the things you are.

im working on a thing where im trying to get lines going in both hands but in such a way that it doesn't sound like i'm just playing a bass line in my left hand. i'm just in the formative stages with it but i am making progress.

i stumbled onto this video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovqa_WG5z74

i had never heard of this pianist before, but he really inspired me to try to develop this in my own playing.





Edited by dave solazzo (08/03/09 07:54 PM)
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#1242870 - 08/03/09 07:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
this is the same pianist. this version is more in the style of a bach invention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgIkGI4EsTk


Edited by dave solazzo (08/03/09 07:59 PM)
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#1242883 - 08/03/09 08:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
minor scale --> I meant harmonic minor.

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#1243030 - 08/04/09 12:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Dave that's a beautiful concept! I would like to learn that too.

It's seems simpler than Mehldau's way because it looks like the left hand is running through burst of chord tones in eighths. Mehldau's is mind boggling because he's truly improvising in both hands and often times in different meters so they look completely independent. This at least loooks somewhat doable. At least in my lifetime smile

Obviously my LH needs a lot of work. Share some tips on how to develop this. It will take me awhile though.

I saw you use short 8th note lines on the LH in your video so do you already have a system to start this? I think I saw you use 3 note bursts. Perhaps you can give an example.


EDIT- the second video is more difficult. Amazing stuff.






Edited by jazzwee (08/04/09 12:33 AM)
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#1243036 - 08/04/09 12:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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TLT, here's a link to a Donna Lee version posted by Virtuosic1, someone who used to post on Pianworld. Now ignore the incredible solo in sixteenth notes and the embellishments to the melody. The head is very cleanly played. Of course he probably has been playing Donna Lee for 40 years! He has very beautiful relaxed swing.

[Donna Lee - Posted by Virtousic1 3 Years Ago]

http://www.box.net/shared/gk1mboa0os
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#1243067 - 08/04/09 02:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Dave that's a beautiful concept! I would like to learn that too.

It's seems simpler than Mehldau's way because it looks like the left hand is running through burst of chord tones in eighths. Mehldau's is mind boggling because he's truly improvising in both hands and often times in different meters so they look completely independent. This at least loooks somewhat doable. At least in my lifetime smile

Obviously my LH needs a lot of work. Share some tips on how to develop this. It will take me awhile though.


well, i'be happy to tell you what has worked for me for getting the left hand into shape for playing lines. i'm still working on this stuff myself. my left hand is not where i want it to be yet, but it's getting close. and on a good day it can almost rival my right hand, or at least give it a run for its money. laugh

this is what i've been doing:

i take a tune, like i did with "autumn leaves," and i play the melody with a chord cluster in my right hand (you can play it with just single notes too if you'd like, if that's easier.) with my left hand i'll play the bass in two but instead of just playing a regular bass line, i'll try to get more of an interactive thing going where i'm playing short fragments of lines that outline the changes. think of it this way: your left hand is scott lafaro, and your right hand is bill evans. you're trying to get that kind of interplay going. that's the goal.

you'd be surprised how much your left hand loosens up after you play in that style for about a half hour or so.

i also take tunes and play the melody in the left hand and comp in the right hand. and after the melody i play several blowing choruses the same way--lines in the left hand, chords in the right.

when i first started doing this stuff i did it very slowly--on ballads. then after i felt comfortable with that, i moved up to medium tempo tunes.

the thing i really like about working this way is that it's a very musical way to develop the left hand. it's not like you're just running your left hand though a bunch of boring exercises. it has actually been very enjoyable for me.


Edited by dave solazzo (08/04/09 02:24 AM)
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#1243086 - 08/04/09 03:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty
minor scale --> I meant harmonic minor.




I was wondering. Harmonic is what I learned. I can forget melodic and natural, can I? (dumb question...)
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#1243088 - 08/04/09 03:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
TLT, here's a link to a Donna Lee version posted by Virtuosic1, someone who used to post on Pianworld. Now ignore the incredible solo in sixteenth notes and the embellishments to the melody. The head is very cleanly played. Of course he probably has been playing Donna Lee for 40 years! He has very beautiful relaxed swing.


Er - I can't listen to that. I managed about 6 bars. It makes me feel nauseous. Like motion-sickness.

Worry not, I'm working on something. And thanks for looking it out.
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#1243093 - 08/04/09 04:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
jazzwee,

I am speaking from memory so I am not going to be very accurate.. but when Bill plays rhythmic stuff, it's usually 3note 6 note patterns that crosses the bar line.. or taking a theme rhythmically displacing them. I've transcribed some of Early Brad Mehldau stuff, and some of the over-the-bar line stuff was very similar to Bills.


But Brad he does a lot more with triplet.. lets say you have a melody that starts out on the 3rd beat and its made of 4 quarter notes.. he might play them as 4 quarter note triplet, and the last note on the melody would "bleed into" the next bar.. sometimes he can even start on the 2nd beat of the triplet, so the last two note of the melody would "bleed into" next bar and the phrase will end on the & of 1 & a.

I've transcribed some Aaron Parks stuff, and it seems like that's the kind of stuff people are doing nowdays. I agree that it definitely has it's root on people like Bill or Herbie, but it's much more developed I guess.

Yea Brad is just crazy... have you heard the album with Charlie Haden and Lee Koonitz? They are playing some standards, but the stuff Brad was doing is just out of this world.

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#1243095 - 08/04/09 04:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Dave,

that video was incredible.. my god watching that really made my dady laugh

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#1243194 - 08/04/09 10:48 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: etcetra]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
etcetera, yes I'm familiar with Bill's "crossing" the barline. I was actually taught that as my teacher uses that a lot (I however, have not been able to implement it).

With Mehldau, though, it's something different (at least from my memory as well), since the crossing the barline for him has to do with different meters in LH vs RH. I don't remember Bill ever doing that.

To me Bill is more straight Waltz or 4/4.

This crossing the barline stuff can be interesting. So for those who don't know what etcetera and I are talking about, it's basically anticipating the next chord change, perhaps by 2 beats ahead. The effect is like going outside and then it resolves on the second half of the bar. Charlie Parker does it too according to Hal Galper.

It's very hard for me to implement because it's so intellectual in a way. It's hard to hear this (for mere mortals smile ).
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#1243197 - 08/04/09 10:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
TLT, you need to push yourself here. I was doing that early on. You need to train your ears to what Jazz sounds like. Of course, you play it extremely slowly. Like 100bpm if you wish. I play it around the speed of that recording, which sounds about 180 or so. I will typically play it up to 200bpm. So you could be playing at half speed. Barb learned this a long time ago.

The purpose of learning this "head", even slowly, is to give you many situations to figure out your swing. It teaches you fingering. It teaches you about triplets. And it's simple note reading. No improvisation here.

If you keep relying on these books, you will be spoon fed and it will take you 15 years to learn the basics smile And they'll sell you more books. Sometimes you just have to go for it.

I'll give something basic to learn if you're still scared of this. It's called C Jam Blues. Very swingy and very simple. But eventually you have to graduate from that.
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#1243219 - 08/04/09 11:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Donna Lee -- a good way to look at the melody is as an improvisation over the chord changes to the Dixieland tune titled "Back Home in Indiana". Problem is that tune is not played much in Scotland -- actually, it's not played much here in the US either. wink You can find it on youtube.

I did know the tune Back Home before I started Donna Lee, so it was easier for me to make sense of Donna Lee that way.

C Jam Blues is a fun piece.

Barb
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#1243258 - 08/04/09 12:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
And I don't mean to pick on TLT here, but there's a lot of other lurkers who follow this thread. So let me just point out what I'm trying to do....

I find that most start AL, and then quit when they feel they're not progressing with the improvisation. Well there's tons of other stuff here to start like voicings (rootless, 3 + 2, walking bass). That can be learned faster.

Improvisation can be frustrating because one doesn't see progress or one doesn't like the sound coming out. But if you guys just stick with me here, it will work out. I sounded the same too when I started. So no one's unique. It takes several years to sound authentic. But one can feel satisfied with their output in a few months if you put in hard work.

Swing - this one again is like the above. One will post their music, and almost 100% probability, I will say that the swing ratio is off. It's triplet feel and should be less (more straight and more accents).

Now I could just give up and change message and say, "hey that sounds good". But who am I helping then? If anyone wants to learn, I can teach you. But since we're not face to face, I have to hear what you're doing.

I know it's a public setting and it can be embarrasing for some. But everyone progresses so quickly when you follow the instruction so it is such an inspiration. We've tried it multiple times in this long thread. I've seen massive improvement in a couple of months by those who actually strived.

Why do I know all this? Because unlike others who've started playing piano since they were children and this is their umpteenth year, I just started playing 5 years ago. I started this thread in December 2007. I've come a long way in a short time and so I've just taken this road not too long ago. The difference with most who seek to learn is that they don't have a good high end teacher. Well, I'm the one paying for the high end teacher (still) so take advantage of me. I'm passing information for free!

And someday when you're really excited by these beginnings, chances are you will seek your own high end teacher and some jazzer can make an income.
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#1243304 - 08/04/09 01:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
One other thing, this thread really isn't about AL. It's about Jazz. Autumn Leaves is just the platform because it has very typical changes to most standards. It's a very typical learning piece. So if anyone wants to learn using a different tune, that's fine.

Here's a practice schedule that I would have done, early on.

1. Scales/Arpeggios (Different Scale a day)
2. Practice Swing on a memorized solo (like Donna Lee).
3. Voicings - like Memorizing 2-5-1's in all keys using Rootless Voicings and Two Handed voices (LH 1 7 RH 3 which I call 2 + 1).
4. Learn a new tune
5. Practice Improvising on a Tune you Know - Like AL
6. Listen to lots of Jazz

And do this everyday. Now 5 years later, I don't do much of 1,2 & 3. Except that I practice #1 just to build speed and not everyday.
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#1243944 - 08/05/09 11:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)

Quote:

I was wondering. Harmonic is what I learned. I can forget melodic and natural, can I? (dumb question...)


G Harmonic minor is going to work really well on Am7b5 D7 G-6 of Autumn Leaves. It isn't a mode of the major scale, so it's good to the the sound in.

The melodic minor is a nice scale to use on top of dominant seventh chords, for example, on G7, you can use C melodic minor, starting on B, also known as altered dominant scale. You can use Ab melodic minor, or D melodic minor.
But it's more tense than your basic Harmonic minor scale. It's up to you to learn the scales that you like, and that you are able to apply.

For now, I would say.
Play with major scale on top of major 251
and harmonic minor on top of minor 251.

Gotta start somewhere.

++

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#1244230 - 08/05/09 07:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty

I'd be curious to hear those challenging tunes from the book. In particular, I'd like to see if they are the right kind of challenging. if you see what I mean.


A sample:

http://www.box.net/shared/sz3o3qcmkf

I know it's supposed to be faster, but this is as fast as I can control. There are also improvising and ear training assignments.
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#1244234 - 08/05/09 07:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
Donna Lee -- a good way to look at the melody is as an improvisation over the chord changes to the Dixieland tune titled "Back Home in Indiana". Problem is that tune is not played much in Scotland -- actually, it's not played much here in the US either. wink You can find it on youtube.


I had no idea, and didn't know the tune, thanks for letting me know. Here's my favourite youtube version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG6JOVP5lqc

Thanks for letting me know.

Edit: Have now listened to Donna Lee on youtube again, and it makes sense now. I do wish that, once in a while, someone would play something slowly.

Quote:
C Jam Blues is a fun piece.

Barb


C jam blues I have now in two different books. I've had a lot of fun with it. smile


Edited by ten left thumbs (08/05/09 07:24 PM)
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#1244258 - 08/05/09 07:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
TLT - I loved your youtube find. Those guys are a riot. I'm glad Miss Donna makes sense for you now.

Barb

ps - I listened to your challenging piece. WOW! Sounds super to my ears. thumb I haven't gone that far in the Richards Book.
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#1244303 - 08/05/09 09:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
dave solazzo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
hey barb,

i enjoyed your version of the tune that was loosely based on "i'll remember april." nice 8th notes!

this is one of my favorite versions of "indiana."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdsa3zAB72Q


Edited by dave solazzo (08/05/09 09:03 PM)
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