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#1244316 - 08/05/09 09:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Thank you Dave. I am having too much fun in my Baerman book.

Oscar Peterson's version of Indiana. Yikes ... I did see that one on my youtube search. He is amazing - though a bit scary. wink
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#1244351 - 08/05/09 10:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
knotty Offline
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nice stuff Tlt. I like that metronome on 2&4. This is the kind of thing you should be playing I think. You're time was good. You can try and make the left hand a bit lighter. The bebop tunes will really help with your swing.

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#1244423 - 08/06/09 01:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: dave solazzo
well, i'be happy to tell you what has worked for me for getting the left hand into shape for playing lines. i'm still working on this stuff myself. my left hand is not where i want it to be yet, but it's getting close. and on a good day it can almost rival my right hand, or at least give it a run for its money. laugh


Dave, I missed this post yesterday. I didn't notice it.

I'd really like to learn how to figure this out. What kind of lines should I work on the left hand. What beats do you play this LH line on. Random? I saw you do like 2 eighth notes I think. What's good to start with?


I'm thinking this could be good on All the Things That You Are as it is easy to outline the chords with the LH. Do I choose chord tones? I have a lesson tomorrow so I could ask my teacher but I know this is not his style of playing. Maybe you'll be my teacher for this smile I love the approach! It's so Mehldau-like.


Edited by jazzwee (08/06/09 01:44 AM)
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#1244437 - 08/06/09 02:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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TLT If you can do Orinthology, you can do Donna Lee. It's the same kind of thing (Charlie Parker stuff). This is Bebop stuff.

We can work on swing with Orinthology. You need to really accent those upbeats and soften those downbeats. Be extreme with it at this point so you can hear it. You need to be certain where the upbeats are and downbeats in a series of eighth notes. Don't go out of sequence. This is really important.

If you would just work with me on one tune with a lot of eighth notes (like Orinthology) we can refine your swing.
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#1244444 - 08/06/09 02:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
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hey jazzwee,

i think it's good to start with very simple lines in the left hand. that's how i started.

try starting with just the root and 5th in the left hand with a few simple embellishments, then bulid from there

as far as the rhythm goes, it is more random, because you don't want a predictable rhythmic pattern in the left hand. that would sound too much like a set bass line. and the idea here is to sound like you are just spontaneously improvising in your left hand. you want to get a conversation between the hands, a collective improv kind of a thing. it's similar to a bach prelude or fugue, where the lines are working together and flowing together.

i'g going to do another video on this approach; i'll go into more detail on it.

i feel like i'm still just in the beginning stages with this stuff. there is so far to go! but i'm getting a little deeper with it every day.


Edited by dave solazzo (08/06/09 02:28 AM)
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#1244446 - 08/06/09 02:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Offline
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So two notes is enough. 1 and 5. If you find another youtube example that's simpler that would set me up. That bach-like example is of course way to complex to specifically practice smile

I have to admit it's hard to conceptualize how to practice this. So the lines on LH will have fill in like comping. And I assume that for best effect, the LH lines should connect to the RH phrase (i.e. no rest in between), so it sounds integrated?

I suppose if your hand is positioned for 1/5, you can easily do 1/9/3/5.


Edited by jazzwee (08/06/09 02:36 AM)
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#1244447 - 08/06/09 02:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
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yes, you want it to sound integrated, but you can certainly breath and leave space.

and yes, think of the left hand like comping--linear comping.
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#1244449 - 08/06/09 02:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
dave solazzo Offline
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i'll try to find a better example for you. because i agree the bach style stuff is just not approachable in the beginning. it's way too involved.
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#1244657 - 08/06/09 11:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Hi Gang!

Thanks everyone - I really enjoyed doing Ornithology. Now, I just keep going. Have had a little shot at Donna Lee but nowhere near cracking it. There's just not enough time in the day.
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#1244904 - 08/06/09 05:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Improvisation can be frustrating because one doesn't see progress or one doesn't like the sound coming out. But if you guys just stick with me here, it will work out. I sounded the same too when I started. So no one's unique. It takes several years to sound authentic. But one can feel satisfied with their output in a few months if you put in hard work.


OK, this is in the spirit of getting on with it. C jam blues, in the simplest form I could find it:

http://www.box.net/shared/6fqvrr333p

This arrangement is from the Associated Board exam syllabus. The left hand is written out the whole way through. The first chorus, I'm playing what's written. The second and third time, I'm improvising RH from suggested notes. Last chorus is written out for me.

I wasn't thinking about swing or accents, just about keeping the left hand going, placing the RH notes to rhythm, which sometimes was accurate, and sometimes wasn't.

Accusations of cowardice and spoonfeeding will not be contested. wink
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#1244910 - 08/06/09 05:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Originally Posted By: knotty

G Harmonic minor is going to work really well on Am7b5 D7 G-6 of Autumn Leaves. It isn't a mode of the major scale, so it's good to the the sound in.

The melodic minor is a nice scale to use on top of dominant seventh chords, for example, on G7, you can use C melodic minor, starting on B, also known as altered dominant scale. You can use Ab melodic minor, or D melodic minor.
But it's more tense than your basic Harmonic minor scale. It's up to you to learn the scales that you like, and that you are able to apply.

For now, I would say.
Play with major scale on top of major 251
and harmonic minor on top of minor 251.

Gotta start somewhere.

++


Now, I've been pondering this, and I can't honestly say I understand all of it. The I looked up wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_scale) and wished I hadn't (the modes aren't enough? I need super-modes? help )

What I've done is put G harmonic minor over all the chord changes of Autumn Leaves.

http://www.box.net/shared/iro21a73iy

Sounds mostly OK, though there are a few clashes. Not sure why this should work, I would have thought G major or E minor, but they sounded even worse. Anyway, it's an experiment, and an exercise in keeping the hands going, but each doing their own thing - which is an issue for me when I try to improvise.

(I normally do scales HT, and a fair bit faster than this.)
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#1244931 - 08/06/09 06:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Tlt,

you will rarely be able to use a single scale over an entire tune, because most tunes change keys.
Here AL starts in Bb major, then Gminor, so the Bbmajor scales and Gminor scales will work good.

Which scales work on top of a chord greatly depends on which voicing you use. Basically, you want to avoid any note that is a 1/2 higher than any note in your left hand.

so if you play G7 in your LH with G-B-F, you have a ton of possibilities, including those I mentioned above, and a lot more. If you start including tension in your voicing, all of a sudden, your choice of scale is changed. McCoy Tyner for example is an example of someone who can just take the shape of any soloer. He has ears so big, that he knows where the soloist is going, and can just apply the right voicing.

Another rule to find which scale works on top of a chord is to simply start the scale at the root, and walk up by either going up a whole tone, or to the next chord tone.
Example,
C-7 is C - Eb - G - Bb
So the sclae on top would be:
C D Eb F G A Bb C
C dorian == Bb major.

But in my opinion, you cannot think about any of this while you play, so it's important to choose a progression and a scale, and improvise on it until the sound of each tone becomes yours. That's why I recommend you take it one progression, and one scale at a time.
Just because you know Bb major scale, does not mean you know how to apply it on C-7 F7 Bbmja7.

When you're very familiar with this, go back to the theory book and learn another scale.

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#1244937 - 08/06/09 06:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
about C jam blues, your time has really improved. That's cool.
I would recommend 2 things for your improv:
- slow down the metronome. 72 bpm is good.
- Compose a solo or two on top of your chords. Taking time to think is good. It will help you develop the sounds you like. Compose (on paper) 2 solos (24 bars). Then improvise at 72bpm. I am sure it will help a lot. What you can do is play your composed line for a chorus, then improv for a chorus. A line is only as good as what comes before and after. So your improv will be greatly influenced by what you composed. And what you composed will be a lot better than what you would improvise (obviously).

Give it a shot.

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#1245014 - 08/06/09 08:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
TLT, that C Jam blues sounds way too complicated smile LH bass line and all. But you had guts to go for that smile

You could just play Charleston chords on the LH, and the melody on the RH. And then solo over the same chords.

The original was very slow and relaxed.

BTW - what scales to play in AL, there's a whole lesson on that so you can just read it vs. having to retype it. But for starters, you just use the G Major Scale. That's it. I would still focus on Chord tones. I do to this day. That's the meat and potatoes. Everything else is just gravy.
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#1245094 - 08/06/09 09:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
hey tlt,

nice c jam! you stayed with the metronome, and that's something that is very hard to do!
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#1245167 - 08/07/09 01:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
Dave, I was playing ATTYA tonight and instead of comping chords or shells, I tried to arpeggiate the chord tones in random order. This I think might be a good tune for me to learn this style. I realized that when you play it like this it's like classical music. It doesn't seem conducive to swing. Is that right?

It's going to take me awhile to absorb this smile Whew!

I probably need a few rhythmic patterns to copy.
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#1245181 - 08/07/09 01:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
hey jazzwee,

arpeggiating the chords in the left hand is great way to start working on this style. and yeah, i know what you mean, it has kind of a classical sound when you play this way. but you can still swing the 8th notes too.

i practice it both ways, swing and straight.
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#1245187 - 08/07/09 02:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
It's really great to be learning something new. This thread can have a mix of both basic and advanced topics.

BTW - do you ever do that "over-the-barline" stuff that etcetera and I were discussing? Basically, you play ahead of the changes. On my teacher's recording of ATTYA, he went ahead by 2 beats and the effect was like he was playing outside. And then it resolves at the last 2 beats of the bar.

Over the years, I've analyzed every trick he had on ATTYA (he willingly explained everything). It was an amazing learning experience. It's not often when we can ask the player directly how they did certain moves. smile
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#1245191 - 08/07/09 02:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
yeah, i love the over the barline stuff. i do a little bit of it sometimes. i'm trying to develop that more too. jarrett is a master of it, mehldau too.

when you were working with the interactive bass stuff, in the right hand were you playing the melody? when you start blowing in the right hand things get a little more involved. but that's when the fun really begins. laugh


Edited by dave solazzo (08/07/09 03:04 AM)
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#1245192 - 08/07/09 02:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
Dave, I just found this tune on my Itunes library.

Fred Hersch - All the Things that You are - Dancing in the Dark Album. The intro is LH playing against the RH. Maybe that's why I remembered ATTYA as good for this two handed style.

I think I mentioned that Fred Hersch was Brad Mehldau's teacher.... I'm listening to it now and seeing if I can copy some rhythmic ideas. He's swinging the intro though, this doesn't sound like classical. Tons of ideas just from the intro.

I wonder how many years it will take me to learn this smile Another 5? smile
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#1245193 - 08/07/09 02:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
Dave, I was blowing on the RH. I was basically just forgetting the rhythm function on the left hand. But the problem is that I had the tendency to play quarter notes like walking. So it took a mental effort to concentrate on an alternate rhythm.

Fortunately, I don't have to think too much when blowing on the RH. I was just doing some simple stuff.

I'm able to Walk while soloing but not consistently. Usually I just try to memorize a standard bassline and just vary it once in awhile.

The challenge on the LH is (1) Rhythmic variety, (2) Fingering. To do melodic lines on the LH requires some thought as the approach to fingering is so different from the RH. I have an additional technical limitation of a weak left hand. Not as much control so tone is bad.
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#1245331 - 08/07/09 12:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Thanks for taking the time to comment, folks! smile (Hi Dave, I don't think we've been formally introduced).

I'm taking all of this on board.

Scales: Knotty, I'm afraid, I just don't understand that. Beyond the fact that it's complex. However, I can cope with doing a plain and simple G, and I found the exercise here (thanks for pointing me there jazzwee).

Composition/improvisation: I suppose composition is just improvising slowly, so I should give it a bash.

Autumn Leaves: I decided I was getting bogged down with arpeggiated baseline, so decided to skip that and walking baseline. I can come back to these later. So I tried out the 2+3 which is *way* juicier than anything I think I've ever played! smile Quick question: do I do anything rhythmic here, or just do chords? I clearly can't do the melody in the RH while keeping the RH still.

Another question: the word 'extensions' came up (this is lesson #6) for the first time. I've heard it bandied around, but I don't know what it means in a jazz context. Any clues?
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#1245365 - 08/07/09 01:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
hey tlt,

nice to "meet" you. grin

Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

Composition/improvisation: I suppose composition is just improvising slowly, so I should give it a bash.


i think you're right. bill evans talks about that here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYXB6pQvJcg
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#1245366 - 08/07/09 01:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
dave solazzo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Another question: the word 'extensions' came up (this is lesson #6) for the first time. I've heard it bandied around, but I don't know what it means in a jazz context. Any clues?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_chord
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#1245409 - 08/07/09 02:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
TLT, when doing 3 + 2 or such chords, at the beginning, you can just play whole notes. But as you get more sophisticated, you play "comping" style. Dave has a nice video explaining that maybe we can repost the link. Basically, you play the chord when the melody is quiet. The pattern on the LH is still "Charleston rhythm" but you skip some of the charleston beats when the melody is busy. That's the way I play most of the time.
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#1245447 - 08/07/09 04:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Got it, thanks. smile
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#1245482 - 08/07/09 05:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
hey jazzwee,

michel petrucciani gets into some of the improvisational bass stuff here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwpBPUvAu1o
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#1245519 - 08/07/09 07:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
Cool Dave! BTW the one by Fred Hersch is actually more complex. Maybe I can record it from my computer.
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#1245527 - 08/07/09 07:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
jazzwee,

i couldn't find the hersch recording. i'd love to hear that.


Edited by dave solazzo (08/07/09 07:58 PM)
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#1245536 - 08/07/09 08:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
Ok Dave, let me see I can embarrass myself here. Here's an attempt at this two handed stuff. I just went for it without thinking much. Let me know what to change here.

Two handed Improvisation Attempt - All The Things You Are

http://www.box.net/shared/14r2lhylqy
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