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#1388006 - 03/04/10 11:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5425
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Barb - I love the confidence with which you play this. In my next life I'm not going to be a wimp on the piano frown And it sounds so cool with BIAB frown

Cathy
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#1388038 - 03/04/10 12:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jotur]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thanks Cathy. BIAB is total fun.

You - a wimp? HAHAHA! I have heard you play with your group. I hear nothing but confidence from you. cool Plus, I am envious that you have a REAL group and I just have my BIAB guys.

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1388089 - 03/04/10 01:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
This is a very good thing you're doing here Barb thumb It helps you listen.

Tempo is the same. The difference lies in two very subtle things but have a huge effect. His accents are MUCH more differentiated. His quarter notes are cut a little short. And he drags ever so slightly behind. Keep comparing like this.

If you have Transcribe, you could probably slow it down even more and you'll notice the delay.
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#1388165 - 03/04/10 03:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee - I do hear all of the differences you mention. My brain understands, but my fingers are not yet obeying.

For transcribing, I use Slow Gold which can take it down to almost zero percent. I can usually hear all the notes at 35%.

I like to use AL Show for when I play along with Wynton. It slows it to 50%. The loops are easily managed with AL Show.

This stuff is so very time consuming, but, so much fun. I will continue on with my project. smile

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1388227 - 03/04/10 04:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Concentrate on the accents for now. The delay and such is an advanced technical skill and your time has to be precise to do that.

For delay practice though, you could have a metronome clicking 8th notes, and then see if you can consistently drag a certain amount. Try varying amounts from a 16th to just barely noticeable. I remember doing this a lot. It's an ear thing after awhile and comes when you actually relax when you play.
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#1388241 - 03/04/10 05:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Hey Barb, that sounded really great! thumb

Hi everyone!
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#1388339 - 03/04/10 08:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee - I agree. I will concentrate on those accents. Good tip there for the "delay" practice.

TLT - Welcome back! Thanks for the thumb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1388365 - 03/04/10 08:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
Hey, Barb - great doings you've got going here!

Since I started with the jazz thing, I'm only just getting into some runs & fills stuff - but your improv sounds great!

I'm still just gleaning info from everywhere I can...your posts always help, thanks!
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#1388694 - 03/05/10 07:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: CMohr]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hey, CMohr - Thank you.

Runs and fills is a good start. I have been working on progressions over the basic 6-2-5-1. You may find the following link helpful:

http://www.nationaljazzworkshop.org/freestuff.php

If you scroll down that page, you will see links to pdf files. This past week, I have been working on the Turnaround progressions found here:

http://www.nationaljazzworkshop.org/freematerials/ligon/Bert_Ligon_Turnarounds.pdf

I've been doing the above progressions in 5 keys. Trying for those accents!

What resources have you been using?

Barb



_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1388720 - 03/05/10 08:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
Manndrew Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 267
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
You may find the following link helpful:

http://www.nationaljazzworkshop.org/freestuff.php

If you scroll down that page, you will see links to pdf files. This past week, I have been working on the Turnaround progressions found here:

http://www.nationaljazzworkshop.org/freematerials/ligon/Bert_Ligon_Turnarounds.pdf



Barb,

Thanks for this link. There are some great things here. Very instructive.

Andy
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#1388746 - 03/05/10 09:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Manndrew]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee and all, I can't seem to stay away from Wynton Kelly's solo. I worked this morning on those accents. As TLT has suggested, I found that I can hear the biggest difference when I concentrate on softening the note before the heavy accent. Problem here is that I do not have the printed music. So, I can't see how those eighth notes look on the printed page. This is strictly by ear.

You will hear my rendition from this morning, followed by yesterday's take and then the master himself.

http://www.box.net/shared/028ikteh2n

Andy - Glad my link is helpful to you. Bert Ligon is quite a jazz educator. I am working from his book: "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony". It is excellent.

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1388843 - 03/05/10 11:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
That sounds great Barb! Big improvement! The other thing is that when you added the delay, it really began to swing like Wynton. Excellent! Now as you can see (or hear), dragging the beat is an important element of swing. And also by your copying of a line, exactly, your emulating the proper swing ratio here. Nothing extreme in Kelly's playing as you can see.
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#1388983 - 03/05/10 02:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
Thanks for the links, Barb! cool I've downloaded a bunch of them. Great site!

Right now my resources are my teacher and a very old keyboard harmony book.
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Think less - play more



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#1389056 - 03/05/10 03:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: CMohr]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thanks, Jazzwee. I had to laugh about the delay. Yesterday you told me to not do the delay since it is an advanced technical skill. Well, I did listen to your advice and did not consciously try to drag the beat. BUT, I played along with Wynton for quite a while this morning before recording. So, I just picked up on it.

This is the way to go for me. I need to play along with the pros until all this stuff comes natural for me.

CMohr - I forgot you have a teacher helping you along here. Lucky you!

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1389164 - 03/05/10 06:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
Thanks, Jazzwee. I had to laugh about the delay. Yesterday you told me to not do the delay since it is an advanced technical skill. Well, I did listen to your advice and did not consciously try to drag the beat. BUT, I played along with Wynton for quite a while this morning before recording. So, I just picked up on it.

This is the way to go for me. I need to play along with the pros until all this stuff comes natural for me.

CMohr - I forgot you have a teacher helping you along here. Lucky you!

Barb


LOL. What I didn't tell you is that the delay is often tied to the control of the accent smile But I didn't want to overwhelm. Whatever you're doing is great since it sounds very natural.
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#1389225 - 03/05/10 08:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
LOL. What I didn't tell you is that the delay is often tied to the control of the accent smile But I didn't want to overwhelm.

AARRGHH Too much information, Jazzwee! eek
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1389390 - 03/06/10 02:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2293
Loc: Sydney
Thanks Barb, I checked out the playalong link. Do you know what tempo the C major one is in ?
Right now I'm working with the metronome for my swing. One day I hope to be confident enough to switch the metronome off.

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#1389487 - 03/06/10 07:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi CA,

Regarding tempo, it sounds like around 126. It's just a close guess. I don't use play alongs. I do prefer Band in a Box or just my metronome.

Are you set up to record? We need more brave folks to post their play here. I learn by listening. Plus, jazzwee needs to be kept busy on this thread. wink

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1390057 - 03/06/10 10:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2293
Loc: Sydney
Thanks for your guess Barb. It will take me a while to work up to 126 bpm. I'm relearning my whole swing methodology with the metronome clicking on 2 4. I used to have it clicking on 1 2 3 4.
What recording device do you use ?

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#1390222 - 03/07/10 06:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: custard apple
What recording device do you use ?

I use software called Wave Creator and I have a mic. It goes through a mixer (which is not necessary).

If you want to use free software, I recommend Audacity. All you need to buy is a mic. When you do download Audacity, make sure you get the mp3 converter which is also free.

Metronomes -- I love those 2/4 clicks. I too was used to those 1/2/3/4 clicks. It took some getting used to when I switched to 2/4.

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1390318 - 03/07/10 10:48 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2293
Loc: Sydney
OK Barb, I will look into your suggestions of the recorder. I think I will use it to listen to myself.
How long did it take you to switch to 2/4 ? Are you finding the 2/4 gives you greater control than the 1/2/3/4 method for the faster swings ?

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#1390337 - 03/07/10 11:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: custard apple
How long did it take you to switch to 2/4 ? Are you finding the 2/4 gives you greater control than the 1/2/3/4 method for the faster swings ?

I began serious work on the 2/4 clicks the end of January when I started the Bert Ligon book. I was introduced to 2/4 a few years ago by someone on the Sudnow forum. I tried it and HATED it. I could barely start on the correct beat. I didn't stick with it.

Now, I love it. It took a bunch of slow, right hand only, practice. I don't know about greater control, but, I have a sense of playing in a jazzy style. I hear that back beat and it is just more fun playing that way.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1390605 - 03/07/10 04:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2293
Loc: Sydney
Yup Barb I totally agree. The 2/4 helps me focus on the back beat and makes it more fun. I started about a week ago and I'm getting the hang of it, but like you I had initial trouble starting on the correct beat.

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#1390702 - 03/07/10 07:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Yup Barb I totally agree. The 2/4 helps me focus on the back beat and makes it more fun. I started about a week ago and I'm getting the hang of it, but like you I had initial trouble starting on the correct beat.

True story:

I was at a Jamey Aebersold jazz workshop a couple of years ago. Jamey was telling us about the 2/4 metronome click. Then, he told us that someone at a previous workshop asked Jamey where he can buy a metronome that clicks only on beats 2 and 4. He complained that his metronome clicks on every beat!

The class went hysterical hearing that story. laugh
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

Top
#1390955 - 03/08/10 02:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2293
Loc: Sydney
Barb et al
I've now done a bit of reading on Barb's suggestions for a recording device.
The Audacity is meant to have the Beat Analyzer feature, which helps you peg the beats per minute of a phrase. Does that mean it will tell me how accurate I am against the metronome bpm, or is the Beat Analyzer simply a metronome ?

I don't need to mix music. Is The Wave Creator or Audacity easier to use ?

You wouldn't believe it but I don't have a laptop, I just have a desktop !

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#1391051 - 03/08/10 06:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi CA,

I wish I could help you out with your Audacity question, but I am clueless. We bought WAVE Creator before we knew about Audacity. I noticed that WAVE does have a free test download, so you can compare the two products. To me WAVE is easy to use -- just a click to record and another click to save it to an mp3. My desktop computer is right next to my piano.

If your desktop is not near your piano, you need to get a hand held recording device. Others on the forum do use these devices and you may want to inquire about it as a new thread topic.

Hope you get set up soon. smile

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1391082 - 03/08/10 08:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2990
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
CA,

for recording, I would recommend buying a handheld device. They have great embedded mics and require nothing else. You can always post process on your PC with USB cable. You will get better quality than most setups, for less money.
Look into Zoom h2 & h4. Seriously, some guys here record with these, and they are amazing for the price. I think Monica does. I've also heard post from Jazzers that were impressive. I wish I had bought that instead of my current setup.

It might even have effects right in, so you don't need software. Usually, you want to add a bit of reverb on post process.

Audacity is good and free, but it's very much signal processing. I use Logic now, which is extremely expensive, but as an alternative, I would look at Reaper.

I wouldn't hold my breath on Audacity telling you if you're accurate against a metronome. Why don't you just record and see if you are smile ?

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#1391432 - 03/08/10 03:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
GPA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 54
CA

Ever tried cakewalk.com ? Is this an option?

Cheers, GPA


Edited by GPA (03/08/10 03:25 PM)

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#1391698 - 03/08/10 09:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: GPA]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2293
Loc: Sydney
Thanks heaps Barb, Knotty and GPA for your helpful responses.
I’m new to all this recording stuff. I’ve printed out your answers and will go into a music multimedia store over the next couple of weeks to discuss.
In fact my interest in jazz has been really recent. I’m just curious about hearing what I sound like, I won’t be good enough to even dream of letting anyone hear the recording. I’ve mainly been mucking around trying to teach myself but I read on the Non Classical Forum that Knotty was Dave Frank’s student. I’ve ordered Joy of Improvisation and one day after I’ve finished the swing and improvisation chapters, I might feel confident to record something for someone else to hear !

Because I’m very amateur, I don’t think I should spend too much money on my initial investment. My desktop is in my study so I like the idea of transferring it to my PC afterwards. At this stage I’m thinking I will get a hand held recorder and download the WAVE free trial.
Would you know if Reaper and Cakewalk are supported in Australia ? What happens if I get really stuck, is there a Helpdesk number I can phone for support ?

Does reverb make the recording sound more “professional” ?
My piano is in an open area which has tiles and not too much furniture – does that mean the reverb might be quite good already ? Do you tend to use more reverb in an outro ?

Cheers
custard

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#1391841 - 03/09/10 02:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
Hi guys,

thank you for this great threat. Barb, Knotty, Jazzwee, Custard, you guys are a great inspiration to me. I really wanted to ask you for help with this following problem of mine:

Whenever I attempt to practice runs, fills, lines etc in several keys I just get too caught up with the fingering. Many a times it feels as if my fingers are constantly at the wrong place (if you get what i mean). they trip over each other. I manage to work out good fingerings if I take the time to do so but I want to be able to play a line or improvise without my head constantly worrying about which finger to use. Does anyone here have a similar problem and how do you work on it? For me its quite serious as my playing is not very precise. I often slip off the key or hit a different note than I wanted to. I know that better fingering often eliminates the problem of accuracy but its a catch 22. More precise playing with good fingering vs more free and creative playing with fingers messing up a lot

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