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#1391886 - 03/09/10 03:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: custard apple

Does reverb make the recording sound more “professional” ?


A good instrument, good mics, a good mic preamp, and good A/D converter pretty much in that order would make the biggest difference in whether your recording sounds professional. Ah---don't forget the most important thing--the player. smile

Reverb is WAY down on the list imo.

The hand held digital recorder that was recommended might be your best choice.
Haven't used the Zoom but everyone seems to like it. I have the Sony PCM-D50.

For my regular piano recordings I invested some fairly serious dough into mics (DPA 4011s) and recorder (Tascam DV-RA 1000HD) but I wouldn't go that route in the beginning. There's plenty of those little recorders out at $500 or under that would probably work fine for you.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#1391894 - 03/09/10 04:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
Hi saiman
Do you have a background in classical ?
I'm not an expert on your fingering problem but I see it as more than one factor:

Correct fingering.
From the Classical Forum, I know that even the classical guys spend time working out the best fingering for a particular piece, they say it's a personal thing. I'm not sure I agree, I think there is an optimal fingering for a given scale. That’s why Hanon provides fingering.

Dexterity.
I think everyone can improve dexterity. I just bought myself Hanon to do just that.

btw are you now more relaxed about your jazz ? I think it should flow through to your hands.

Best

custard

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#1391900 - 03/09/10 04:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
lol Dave Ferris, I so agree, the player is the biggest setback at the moment in my situation.
I will add your Sony PCM-D50 onto my list of questions when I go into the shop.
Thanks for the budget guideline for the small recorders, I will add a premium because equipment in Australia is expensive (lack of supplier competition due to small population).


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#1391902 - 03/09/10 04:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hey custard. thanks for your help. I do actually have experience in classical but that teaches you to keep working on a piece until its perfect. I actual want to train my head to be more relaxed and let my fingers just be creative, rather than memorizing specific lines and fingerings.

I do a Hanon exercise with joy of improv every week but I just do the same fingering for all the key as there are no finger notations given. will see how it goes...

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#1391904 - 03/09/10 04:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
I will probably just go for a small recorder at this stage but do you know if the Zoom has a built-in pre-amp or do I need to buy an external one ?

I'm starting to realise that my recent interest in jazz is going to cost. I don't mind investing wisely, I know that jazz just isn't going to be a passing interest for me, I will love it for the rest of my life.

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#1391914 - 03/09/10 05:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb


I was at a Jamey Aebersold jazz workshop a couple of years ago. Jamey was telling us about the 2/4 metronome click. Then, he told us that someone at a previous workshop asked Jamey where he can buy a metronome that clicks only on beats 2 and 4. He complained that his metronome clicks on every beat!

The class went hysterical hearing that story. laugh


LOL Barb! That's wonderful.

There's clearly a niche in the market there. Special metronome for jass that only clicks on 2 and 4!

We could make millions on this, don't you think? wink
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1391962 - 03/09/10 07:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
There's clearly a niche in the market there. Special metronome for jass that only clicks on 2 and 4!

We could make millions on this, don't you think? wink


I'm sure a 'Jazz Metronome' would sell well to newbie jazzers. (Decades ago someone in the US marketed a 'Pet Rock' that sold well for a season or two). grin
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1392012 - 03/09/10 09:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
any more suggestions regarding my problem? anyone?

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#1392029 - 03/09/10 09:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: saiman
Hi guys,


Whenever I attempt to practice runs, fills, lines etc in several keys I just get too caught up with the fingering. Many a times it feels as if my fingers are constantly at the wrong place (if you get what i mean). they trip over each other. I manage to work out good fingerings if I take the time to do so but I want to be able to play a line or improvise without my head constantly worrying about which finger to use. Does anyone here have a similar problem and how do you work on it? For me its quite serious as my playing is not very precise. I often slip off the key or hit a different note than I wanted to. I know that better fingering often eliminates the problem of accuracy but its a catch 22. More precise playing with good fingering vs more free and creative playing with fingers messing up a lot


Yes, I have a similar problem of fingerings just not coming natural to me. The only solution for me has been to write the fingerings for all the trouble spots. That means, if transposing, well, just write those new fingerings. I know it does hamper creative playing, but I don't worry about being creative until my fingers feel comfortable going places. Jazz playing is a big skill we are learning. I take one baby step at a time and I am confident that I will someday reach my goals. smile
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1392155 - 03/09/10 12:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: saiman
Hi guys,

thank you for this great threat. Barb, Knotty, Jazzwee, Custard, you guys are a great inspiration to me. I really wanted to ask you for help with this following problem of mine:

Whenever I attempt to practice runs, fills, lines etc in several keys I just get too caught up with the fingering. Many a times it feels as if my fingers are constantly at the wrong place (if you get what i mean). they trip over each other. I manage to work out good fingerings if I take the time to do so but I want to be able to play a line or improvise without my head constantly worrying about which finger to use. Does anyone here have a similar problem and how do you work on it? For me its quite serious as my playing is not very precise. I often slip off the key or hit a different note than I wanted to. I know that better fingering often eliminates the problem of accuracy but its a catch 22. More precise playing with good fingering vs more free and creative playing with fingers messing up a lot


There's a different approach with "runs" as that just involves practicing scales. I think Jazz requires extensive scale practice and is a constant thing. I practice this daily to some extent and strive to improve my legato phrasing.

Now on actual improvisation, I think we all have the same problem to varying degrees. Here's some thoughts as I've improved on this. First of all, consider your hand shape. When you improvise, is your hand extended and open? Or is it cupped and you are using mostly 3 fingers? Stretch your hand out and make sure every finger is available to improvise. That is probably half the problem right there for me. I found that extensive practice with fingers 4 & 5 (getting them to relax immediately after hitting a key) improved everything.

Anticipate where you are going when doing any fingering. Meaning thumb should be the lowest note and pinky the highest note you intend to play in a given hand position. This pretty much means, your hand should remain "open" at all times.

Some other technique things that have helped me is to practice diminished scales specifically. This requires more finger twisting although it uses only 3 fingers. Hard to do legato. Everything really is in the relaxation.

Some pages back, I have an exercise in improving your time, that should also improve your control. Helped me. As your brain responds more quickly to the neural impulses, everything evens out and there's more precision. Anyway, do that exercise for a couple of months at least.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1392224 - 03/09/10 01:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
GPA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 54
Hi Barb

Better still, a metronome that clicks on4 beats,but accents the 2nd and 4th

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#1392258 - 03/09/10 02:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: GPA]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: GPA
Better still, a metronome that clicks on4 beats,but accents the 2nd and 4th

Yup--there is money to be made out there in the jazz metronome business. I'm just afraid it will take away from my practice time. frown
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1393625 - 03/11/10 12:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
OK, I promised Barb I would tell this story, and I'll tell it here, though it's not strictly related to jazz. It was her anecdote about the jazz metronome that reminded me of it.

Over the last Christmas holidays, we were building a bass guitar from a kit, bought by my son. He really wanted to see what it looked like from the inside. The guitar teacher told us we would need a different amp, because amps relate to the pitch they amplify. So, one day, while happened to be passing the guitar shop, I went in to enquire about bass amps.

The man who appeared to be the manager of the shop helped me find what I was looking for, and we discussed prices, sizes, etc. Just above the bass amps there was a display of bass guitars, and I took a good look at them, thinking, OK, this is what I'm trying to build.

It suddenly occured to me that I had not the slightest idea how a bass guitar is tuned. So I asked the shop manager.

'Oh' he said 'just like a regular guitar'

Well this surprised me. I pointed out that my regular guitar has 6 strings, and the bass one only 4, and asked him what he meant.

'It's the same as the four bottom strings' he replied.

Well, I was still confused. 'What, you mean an octave lower, two octaves?'

'No' he said, 'it's just the same.'

Well I was really puzzled by this. I pointed to the lowest string 'So that's an E, right?'

'Yes, madam, that's an E'

'Like the E on my guitar?'

'Yes madam'

'OK' I said, wondering how to get passed this one, 'this string is thicker and longer than the one on my guitar. It must give a lower sound.'

At this point, I could see the faintest flicker in his face, the flicker that said, the customer is always right. So he decided to agree with me. 'Yes, madam, it is lower, but not by a whole octave.'

That's when I decided all I could do was to try to get out of the shop without peeing myself with laughter. laugh And I vowed never again to feel inadequate when walking into a guitar shop.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1393638 - 03/11/10 12:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thank you for that TLT! laugh laugh laugh

Have you ever thought of a comedy/piano act for yourself? wink
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1393662 - 03/11/10 01:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
That would be an interesting career move...
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1399035 - 03/19/10 12:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Swing Examples - Again

Hello swing fans. As I indicated before, the swing files in this thread have been downloaded 3500+ times, which is pretty amazing and shows everyone's interest in learning how to swing.

I was teaching my Left hand how to swing so I recorded some swing variations. (I played these with two hands and you can hear my LH is not as precise).

http://www.box.net/shared/i1mi5qrfzg

Let's see if you can tell the differences. I'm playing two patterns here (a black key vs. white key practice), and I recorded three separate swing styles.

1. The first set is what I call the Lawrence Welk swing. DO NOT swing like this. It's nothing but a series of Long-Shorts and to me it sounds like a military band is trying to swing.

2. The second set is playing close-to-straight eighth notes with upbeat accents. This is the modern style of jazz swing that you hear most often.

3. The second set is hard-swing (long-short) but with strong upbeat accents and is the Bill Evans style of swing. It is very hard to maintain this style continuously and is considered 'dated' by most. In fact I probably started straigthening a little after the beginning.

Again the most important feature of proper swing are upbeat accents, and legato playing. And it sounds a bit more relaxed when you drag the beat. However, since I'm not playing against a beat, I cannot demonstrate a delay here.
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
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#1399084 - 03/19/10 06:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
Thanks jazz-wee ! I used to do 2 but now I'm trying to do 3.
What tempo were you using ?

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#1399161 - 03/19/10 09:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Tempo- I don't know Custard, I didn't have a metronome on.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1399172 - 03/19/10 09:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Great swing example Jazzwee.

I timed it at around 138 bmp. There is a margin for error on my part. wink

Custard -- you just need to set your metronome and experiment to determine the approximate tempo. I'm curious to see what you find.

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1399718 - 03/20/10 12:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
Thanks for helping me out again Barb - it was late at night when I asked, so I was too lazy to figure it out myself !
I agree it's around 138 bmp. I used to be able to get up to 132 bmp using method 2. Now that I am trying to ingrain method 3 into muscle memory, I'm starting off slow.

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#1399748 - 03/20/10 01:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
custard, I don't know how you can learn swing just from practicing it like a scale. The scalar approach is easy. It's much harder to maintain while you're jumping all over the place. That's why, if you're not improvising yet (and you should be), you should at least play the heads of tunes so you experience the interplay among fingers and the stop/start of real swing.

You need to post something and don't be embarassed by your product at the beginning. Heck listen to everyone here and you'll see the progress over time. I find that the ones that post their music and listen to critique are the ones that improve best. It's hard to see what you know and don't know from just reading about Jazz.

BTW - on another note, past 135 or so, I couldn't possibly do the #3 version. That's a style that sounds better on slow tunes (like 120'ish). Most of us (and like 7notemode or Beeboss) will gravitate to the #2 version.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1399756 - 03/20/10 02:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
Hi JW, my friend is a music technician and he's looking for the appropriate recorder for me.
I was going to get the Zoom Q3 but I have a tiled room so it picks up too much room noise.

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#1399760 - 03/20/10 02:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Good luck on that. Remember, we're here to support you especially those like you without a teacher. I think Jazz is particularly hard to learn without a teacher (as far as the basics go).
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My Blog

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#1399762 - 03/20/10 02:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
Yeah thanks JW, that's why I'm always on this forum for the teaching.
Any day Dave Frank's Joy of Improvisation will arrive in my letterbox.

For the recorder, my friend also is taking into account that I don't have a laptop. My desktop is in my study.

btw how long do you practise every day ? For me I average 25 min jazz, 25 min classical maximum. I know I should devote much more time to jazz to make giant steps but I get distracted by other interests. Also I don't feel like I want to give up on the classical.

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#1399763 - 03/20/10 02:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
Yeah thanks JW, that's why I'm always on this forum for the teaching.
Any day Dave Frank's Joy of Improvisation will arrive in my letterbox.

For the recorder, my friend also is taking into account that I don't have a laptop. My desktop is in my study.

btw how long do you practise every day ? For me I average 25 min jazz, 25 min classical maximum. I know I should devote much more time to jazz to make giant steps but I get distracted by other interests. Also I don't feel like I want to give up on the classical.

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#1399768 - 03/20/10 02:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Custard, when I was starting (5+ years ago), I was practicing 3 hours a day. Now I'm typically at 2 hours a day and maybe an occasional 1 hour a day when I'm particularly busy. I think I computed that I'm somewhere over 4000 hours.

Then on top of this, I listen to jazz constantly, often sleeping listening to music.

Also, in the entire 5+ years, I've never been without a teacher.

I've improved a lot from when I started but it's a long road...
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1399790 - 03/20/10 04:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
oh wow JW, you must be really disciplined. At the moment I think I'm a bit too relaxed about it, I need to get the right balance between fun and STUDYING jazz.

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#1399901 - 03/20/10 11:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: custard apple
oh wow JW, you must be really disciplined. At the moment I think I'm a bit too relaxed about it, I need to get the right balance between fun and STUDYING jazz.


Custard, that is MY FUN smile For example, you see us struggling over Nefertiti on the other thread. Then slowly a product starts to come out. It's really encouraging when you start something new and can actually create something.

If I didn't get my basic skills worked out, I'd be so frustrated at not being able to really play anything. I think the fun increases the more you know. Then it's you listening to your own playing instead of "working".

I think it is safe to say that most of us who keep at this are obsessed with this somehow wink
_________________________
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My Blog

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#1400163 - 03/20/10 06:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2301
Loc: Sydney
Yup JW, "obsessed" is the operative word !
I agree that getting the basics right is important in any discipline, and that the better you are, the more fun and addictive it is.

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#1409328 - 04/02/10 10:46 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi Everyone,

We have a lot of lurkers here who are downloading files. Some of you may have read through Lesson 7 that deals with left hand rootless chord voicings.

The last couple of days, I have been working on a combo style version of ATTYA. This can give you an idea of what can be done using those rootless voicings.

http://www.box.net/shared/a0ptb6lpa3

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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