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#1010140 - 12/27/07 03:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Kawaigirl1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 989
Loc: Toronto
This is a great topic Jazzwee. Count me in \:\)

Here's a dumb question. Are you guys working off a lead sheet?
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#1010141 - 12/27/07 04:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1916
Loc: Netherlands
Heh, only when you try to record do you realize the kind of trouble you're in. Pedaling this tune gives me all kinds of trouble. Also I keep speeding up. Anyway, I'll try again to record something tomorrow. \:D
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#1010142 - 12/27/07 05:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Kawaigirl1, there are never going to be dumb questions here! Instead of a leadsheet (which we cannot officially post due to to copyrights), I have posted the chords at the top of the thread.

I placed the notes to be played for each chord early in this thread so you don't need to be intimidated. We're doing only two notes per chord and they're already listed.

So the chords are listed like this as they would be in a leadsheet. They're separated by bars which would indicate that you would count to four on each bar. So stay on the same chord for four beats.

| Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | CMaj7 |
| 1234 | 1234 | 1234 | 1234 |
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#1010143 - 12/27/07 05:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Hi All,
I lurked the previous thread with interest and apprehension. Now that the real thing is here, I've decided to dip my toe in the water.

I think I got the A section working with a bare bones melody this morning, so I'm going to give it a try.

For anyone (like me) who's a little slow at figuring out things like m7b5 chords, here's a nice site with a chord chart very close to the G version above, and it includes sound and chord voicings:

http://www.8notes.com/chord_chart/autumn_leaves.asp [/b]
Bluekeys, why be apprehensive? Just to repeat my background here, I've only played piano and jazz for a little over three years. So you're not that far away. What I'm sharing here is based on collective information from several jazz teachers. Over the years I've tried to analyze how best to learn this stuff and hopefully I can impart that to everyone and share my love of jazz.
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#1010144 - 12/27/07 05:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Heh, only when you try to record do you realize the kind of trouble you're in. Pedaling this tune gives me all kinds of trouble. Also I keep speeding up. Anyway, I'll try again to record something tomorrow. \:D [/b]
I know what you mean with recording. I just tried to record some stuff right now and I get self-conscious to so I keep making mistakes. Then I discovered, the Recorder was OFF!!!!

I have to emphasize by the way that in Jazz, the rhythm is key and it has to be there whether fast or slow. I was trying to record a version at ballad speed just for comparison just to show that even at slow speed, I'm still counting.

BTW - most of jazz is seldom pedalled. This is hard as the notes have to be played legato. My early teachers would forbid me from using pedals or reverb.
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#1010145 - 12/27/07 05:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1916
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Instead of a leadsheet (which we cannot officially post due to to copyrights) . . .[/b]
Heh, we cannot legally post our own recordings of Autumn Leaves either. ;\)

Here is a (legal!) leadsheet of Autumn Leaves, although I won't make any promises to its accuracy:
http://www.wikifonia.org/node/106

(If you select "Eb" under Layout, you'll see the score in Em, which is what we're talking about in this thread.)

Anyways, I just managed to record something bearable. Instead of 1-7 in the left hand, I alternated between 1-7 and 1-3 (and even a 1-5 at some point but that happened without thinking).

No (real) improvisations yet. I hope it swings. \:D

Here it is (MIDI file):
http://www.box.net/shared/bl81pqao0c
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#1010146 - 12/27/07 05:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1916
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
I was trying to record a version at ballad speed just for comparison just to show that even at slow speed, I'm still counting.[/b]
I'm not counting but I'm definitively tapping along with my foot, which I never do otherwise.

 Quote:
BTW - most of jazz is seldom pedalled.[/b]
That's interesting. The bit I just recorded is without pedal and I like it better that way, but I guess it really needs a drummer. ;\)
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#1010147 - 12/27/07 05:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Hi Matthijs, I don't mean I actually count 1234. At this point, I've internalized the pulse so I'm conscious of the beat. I have to anyway in order to swing.

I still have Rhythm problems. But certainly much better than when I started. ;\)
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#1010148 - 12/27/07 05:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Matthijs, I listened to the recording and you're starting to swing man! Good job! I'll do some recordings later to show some swing exercises so you all can practice that and learn variations in swing.

BTW - in the end we will also be doing 1/7 and 1/3 on the left as that's better voice leading. There's also 1/5/7 on the LH which is perfect for Autumn Leaves actually. Sometimes the melody is on the third so it doesn't work too well to do 1/7 LH and 3/5 RH. Unconsciously I noticed that in my recording I did add an extra note on the RH. Habit.

Anyway, later, I'll introduce a nice RH voicing to a 1/7, 1/3 LH. Perfect for comping a singer.
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#1010149 - 12/27/07 05:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Mike A Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 521
Loc: So.Cal.USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
...Heh, we cannot legally post our own recordings of Autumn Leaves either. ... [/b]
I believe there's an applicable exception under U.S. copyright law.
 Quote:
Public Performance Without Commercial Advantage.[/b] Although fair use provides a statutory exception to any of a copyright holder’s exclusive rights, § 110(4) provides an exception to only the performance right of a copyright holder.94 The § 110(4) exception in the Copyright Act allows public performances to take place without payment so long as the performance is done without the intent of making commercial gain.95 In addition, the performers, promoters, and organizers must not be compensated beyond expenses. The statute does not require the performance to be free if the proceeds are used exclusively for educational, religious, or charitable purposes. If none of these purposes are available, the performance must be free for the audience. Examples of these public performances include eligible benefit concerts, school performances, and religious festivities.
See CRS Report to Congress: Copyright Licensing in Music Distribution, Reproduction, and Public Performance 19 (2006).

Not an expert, though.

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#1010150 - 12/27/07 06:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Mike A, on another site, the webmaster was hunted down as the "Commercial Enterprise" not the one who made the music. On the other hand, none of our music is posted on Pianoworld so I guess they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The other site in question stored MIDI files on the same server.
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#1010151 - 12/27/07 06:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Van:
jazzwee, just curious, if you're lazy, would you rather drop the 5 or the 7 on a 7th chord? \:D
[/b]
Van, I forgot to answer this.

When we are all done, you will find that the only key chord tones are the 3rd and the 7th. The harmonic 'quality' of a chord is defined by these two tones. Later we will play the 3rd on our RH. The 5th is the least important tone and is frequently skipped. Although so far, we have not used the 3rd, you will find that it is actually frequently hit by the melody.
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#1010152 - 12/28/07 03:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
LESSON #2

OK guys, I will up the ante a little now for the folks that have successfully done 1/7's. Now note that there's no timeline here. I'm putting the information in order of learning. Some of you may stay on 1/7's for awhile and some already know it so don't feel pushed. You can ask questions at any time even something early on.

RH 3rds

Now I want to add 3rds to each chord using the RH. So the LH keeps playing 1/7's and the RH plays the 3rd of each chord. You will find that once you've memorized 1/7's on the LH, you can leave that somewhat on autopilot because the intervals mostly constant except for the two major 7 chords. So now you can concentrate on the 3rds. At the beginning, just memorize the pattern but later, study how the third works with the chord. What's important here is to train the ear to recognize the melodic flow.

Here are the original changes in Chord Format:

CHORD FORMAT

A Section

| Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Cmaj7 |
| F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em7 | Em7 |

X2 (Do 2 times)

B Section

| F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em7 | Em7 |
| Am7 | D7 |
| GMaj7 | CMaj7 |
| F#m7b5 | B7b9 |
| Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | F#m7b5 | B7b9 |
| Em7 | Em7 |

Notes Format: LH 1/7 + RH 3

Here's the same thing but now I've substituted the LH and RH notes to play for each chord. We will play no more than 3 notes per chord in two hands. For each chord I enclose the notes in brackets []. The first two notes are to be played in the LH, the third note (after the comma) is to be played in the RH.


A Section

| [A G, C] | [D C, F#] | [G F#, B] | [C B, E] |
| [F# E, A] | [B A, Eb] | [E D, G] | [E D, G] |

X2 (Do 2 times)


B Section

| [F# E, A] | [B A, Eb] | [E D, G] | [E D, G] |
| [A G, C] | [D C, F#] |
| [G F#, B] | [C B, E] |
| [F# E, A] | [B A, Eb] |
| [E D, G] [A G, C#]* |
| [D C, F#] [G F, B]* |
| [F# E, A] | [B A, Eb] |
| [E D, G] | [E D, G] |

Example: | [A G, C] | LH plays A G, RH plays C. Inside the bars, play the chord for 4 beats (count 1234). There's a couple of bars, marked with an asterisk, where there are two chords in each bar. Each chord here will be played for only two beats (count 12 12).

Here's a recording of this played in two hands. I apologize in advance for the bad recording. For some reason, the stereo sound was not balanced. In fact most of my recordings tonight had distortion so something went awry. At least this was passable.

http://www.box.net/shared/xv34ib4g8c

(note that in the recording I did not play the 4 chords marked with an asterisk as shown - I just played the 1st chord for 4 measures as a simplified version).

This style of playing is referred to as 2 + 1 solo piano style (from the Metaphors for Musician Book). It shows that 2 notes of the chord are played in the LH and 1 note in the RH. Later, we will get to playing this in 3 + 1 and 2 + 3. Or in the most advanced comping level 4 + 3 (referred to otherwise as block chords).

What's important here is to listen to the sound of each chord. In each bracket [] above, the notes referenced are in the following format [Root 7th, 3rd]. Listen closely to the sound because your ears needs to hear the two important tones: 7th and 3rd which Mike A earlier has emphasized as being harmonic 'Guide Tones'. (He's absolutely right too).


Edited by jazzwee (05/28/09 05:32 PM)
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#1010153 - 12/28/07 11:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Mike A Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 521
Loc: So.Cal.USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... the two important tones: 7th and 3rd which Mike A earlier has emphasized as being harmonic 'Guide Tones'. [/b]
And, to be clear, what I was talking about ( here and here ) was the use of guide tones in a melodic rather than harmonic context, to create guide tone lines[/b] ... one of several sources of raw material for improvised solos. The article I mentioned illustrates the creation of guide tone lines in the context of Autumn Leaves.

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#1010154 - 12/28/07 11:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
And you were clear Mike A.

The separation of playing the 3rd in the RH makes it easy to quickly transform that 3rd as part of a solo line in the RH. The 7th, which can already be heard on the LH becomes the 3rd of the next chord in many cases. IMHO, hearing these tones is critical to making melodic lines later on.

In any case, even setting the improv section aside, the 7th and 3rd remain critical to the harmonic content. Without them, there is no harmonic flow in a tune like this, which is completely based on "Functional Harmony" (ii-V-I).
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#1010155 - 12/28/07 11:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
westarm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 63
Loc: Indiana, USA
great thread and i'm following.

a small question....are we playing 7ths and/or 2nds for the 1/7 exercise? sounds, in the example above, like 7ths. is this typical in roughing out a voicing?

thanks.
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#1010156 - 12/28/07 11:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
westarm, this is actually a very good question.

In the later version, even with 3 notes as in Am7 played as [A G, C], we have A as the root, G as the 7th, C as the 3rd. It is important to play them in this order.

Do not play 'A G C' as 'G A C'. The reason for this is that the LH has a bigger spread. The root and the 7th have enough separation that the root will be played lower in the bass section.

If you played Am7 as 'G A C', you will have to play it above middle C to not be muddy and you will lose your bass tone.

I'm not in front of the piano, but I will probably need to specify exactly which Octave the root is played. I will do that.
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#1010157 - 12/28/07 12:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
LaValse Offline
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Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 1225
Loc: Mumbles, Wales
I've been trying the original 1-7 shell LH and one note RH - I always falter at some point - fumbling for the chords - lost my way rhytmically a few times in the recording below and hit lots of wrong notes, but it's coming... *Lots* of fun - kids singing along as well at times. Everything else I've ever played has been pre 1900 classical \:\)

http://www.sailwave.com/piano/al1.mp3

That sort of thing feels natural but I'm not really sure what I'm doing...!

Thankyou jazzwee - that was a fun afternoon...
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#1010158 - 12/28/07 01:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Wow LaValse, that sounds pretty good to me! It has a nice swing to it. You did a great job!

Don't rush this. It's important to get the LH on autopilot. This will be key to doing an improv on the RH later. And play it slow too. It will be hard to solo at this fast clip. I was going to post a much slower version except my Zoom H4 blew up on me.

One other thing, don't be afraid to play whole notes on the LH. When we get to doing the solo, a busy LH can be distracting for a beginner. I know I had a busy LH too but in my second recording, I'm just playing whole notes.

When actually played in a swing style, this tempo will be the final objective but we have to start slow first ;\) Sorry for setting a bad example...
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#1010159 - 12/28/07 01:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
LaValse Offline
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Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 1225
Loc: Mumbles, Wales
Hi jazzwee,

Understood - I think I got a bit excited that I was playing music that my family recognised! I did try slow but lost the swing 'ability'... so I was in fact wondering about that. Thank you for the feedback; I'll concentrate on the issues you mention.

> Zoom H4 blew up

Get an Edirol... ;\)
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#1010160 - 12/28/07 01:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Hi LaValse, I think you should practice it both ways. This is excellent! Yes when you slow down you will lose the swing. I'm glad you tried to swing it. The phrasing is very nice!

I'm just preparing you for the next step which is to play just the 3rds in the right hand and then from there, we can make new melodies. It will be pretty difficult to do that in fast form.

I've ruined two days of recording so far so I'm behind on that front. With very loud children (who are always running) in my house, it's been hard to get quiet time \:D

Things I wanted to record: (I did, but lost them)

1. I wanted to demonstrate a LH slower Charleston Rhythm.

2. Ballad tempo

3. Swing examples - good and bad

4. Playing thirds and RH and creating simple melodies (ballad tempo)
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#1010161 - 12/28/07 02:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jotur Online   blank
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5659
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I know the melody! \:D I'll work on the chord voicings over the weekend and maybe I can post early in the new year.

Van - I *love* the laid back feel of your piece - it really has just that atmosphere one expects from a cool cat -

jazzwee and LaValse - the rhythms are great - haha, I wouldn't even have thought of that kind of a LH pattern. Thanks.

I see the ii-V-I's here, but they also look like the circle of 4ths to me, which I've seen in a lot of pop music.

And, hm. A B7b9 - isn't the b9 another B? Is it spelled with the b9 just to encourage you to put in the octave B?

Cathy
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#1010162 - 12/28/07 02:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Hi Cathy, like I said earlier, don't worry about the alterations in chords like B7(b9) or F#m7(b5) (F# Half Diminished). There's a reason it is stated as such. These are:

Major 2-5-1[/b]
Key of G
Am7 - D7 - GMaj7

Minor 2-5-1[/b]
Key of Em
F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em

Of course G and Em share the same diatonic scale so you are right that it could also be construed to appear as just the circle of fifths (or fourths).

B7(b9) or B7 Flat Nine, means a B7 with a C.

F#m7(b5) or F sharp minor Seven with a Flat Five, is an F#m7 played with a C instead of Db.

I'm looking forward to your future music post!
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#1010163 - 12/28/07 03:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
I just discovered this thread.
How does this study group work? I am interested in participating, but I've never learned music in a way like this.

I was looking at the thread, but I'm rather lost.
Please enlighten me.
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#1010164 - 12/28/07 03:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Hi Playadom, unlike reading sheet music, jazz is played in a more free form fashion and so we are learning pieces of the puzzle so to speak. In the end, the intent is that someone could take a "Lead Sheet" (Music that has chords and melody) of any tune, and improvise upon it. It could be applied to any tune.

Not everyone needs to take this to the full level of learning everything jazz. An objective for some could be to play this tune as a "cocktail piano piece".

So far, what we've discussed is how to play the chords to Autumn Leaves in the LH and play the melody in the RH.

I hope that most people will take it to the point of playing chords in the LH while inventing new melodies in the RH, or improvisation in other words.

Hopefully this thread will provide enough background to achieve this.

This is pretty free form. Not everyone can learn at the same pace so this is a long term thread. Some people may take weeks to get beyond page 1.

Hopefully, I and others will put information here in increasing levels of complexity until it becomes a long term learning resource.

This is not something that can be learned in a weekend.

Here's a professional version of Autumn Leaves played by Jazz Master Keith Jarrett.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y
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#1010165 - 12/28/07 04:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5659
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
B7(b9) or B7 Flat Nine, means a B7 with a C.[/b]
Oh yeah, duh - the key of B major has a C# -

thanks

Cathy
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#1010166 - 12/28/07 04:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Posts: 7115
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Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E... \:D \:D

In the key of Em, B7 would have a flat 9 since C is in the scale. ;\)

Jazzers are theory geeks...sorry
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#1010167 - 12/28/07 04:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Frank Sinatra version of Autumn Leaves. Non-jazz of course.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hhB8H1YnRF0&feature=related

Jazz Versions:[/b]

Keith Jarrett.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Oscar Peterson
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3oHaL5cV9jY

Bill Evans
http://youtube.com/watch?v=89B6OmBuG4A

There are literally hundreds of versions of Autumn Leaves on YouTube so I picked the notable ones.
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#1010168 - 12/28/07 04:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
Now, I see the chords, but what about the melody?
Is this posted somewhere?
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Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#1010169 - 12/28/07 04:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Hi Playadom, unfortunately we cannot post a real leadsheet with melody due to copyright reasons. So some of us have posted the melody to be played by ear.

For those wanting the actual leadsheet, you can get Real Book 1 Sixth Edition from your local Bookstore (or Amazon, etc.).
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My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


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