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#1010230 - 12/30/07 02:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jotur Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5640
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
A-D-G-C-F-B-E[/b]
That's not how I would think of it because it's... wrong. \:\)
[/b]
Mahlzeit, what'd you expect from the person who hooked up their recording equipment backwards? \:D

I'm aware that "flavor" isn't a technical term in music and that, as pianojerome points out, the places on a staff are *not* "F"s in the key of G, but F#'s. But I routinely find F# major with my fingers by visuallizing the keyboard as I play and moving an F chord up half a step. I in practice as I read music find F#dim by playing the top two notes of an F with an F#. It's a conceptual framework that functions well for me when I'm reading lead sheets, and the sense that the chord's root alphabetic name progresses in 4ths helps me find the places on the keyboard itself quickly, since I play a *lot* of IV-V-I music and I'm really familiar with those changes.

It may well be that as I play more and analyze more and understand more that functional knowledge will shift its conceptualness to ii-V-I \:D \:D \:D

Cathy
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#1010231 - 12/30/07 03:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jotur Offline
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Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Hm. A while back Kreisler was posting classical music and then analyzing it. In the G7-C7-F example that I gave he called the G7 the "applied dominant". I've also thought of it as the "V of the V" chord. And the "circle of 4ths" terminology I read in a "how to play piano with chords" or similar place. The G7 is, of course, built on the second degree of of the F scale, but is not the same chord is the ii chord in F. Nonetheless, for me at this point in time ;\) there is a relationship between Gmin and G7 and the progression to C7 that helps me put a framework on the harmony that's being used.

FWIW, YMMV as Yuri says \:\)

Cathy
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#1010232 - 12/30/07 04:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Now all of us who have posted music should try with future attempts to making sure the melody is correctly lined up with the chords[/b]
What is the point of that? Isn't that the opposite of swinging? [/b]
Isn't swinging also "correctly" aligned with the chords, just differently than straight time?

After hearing Jazz's simple melody, I for one have decided to do more work on straight rhythm before grabbing a vine and letting loose a Tarzan yell. But I don't think the intention was to stop anyone from swinging. [/b]
Hi Guys and Gals, Bluekeys is absolutely correct. I've been emphasizing since the beginning that swing is about exact timing even on the fraction of an eight note. It takes a lot of technique development to do it right.

In the meantime, we have to at least start with playing it straight but correctly aligned to the measure. For example, the start of the melody is not exactly on Am7. There's 'The Fa-lling' and then Am7 starts on 'Leaves'. So the positioning is important. Let's make sure we learn to count and make an even 4/4 on the LH. When you can have good internal beat pulse, only then would you start to play Rubato. Rubato in jazz is not free form time. If you rob time at one point you have to make it up at another point. In cocktail piano, you are able to stretch the time and fit lots of arpeggios in there without concern for the beat. In jazz, there's a constant beat and if you stray, you will be left behind by the bass player and drummer.

So my simple melody is absolutely non-jazz and non-swinging. It is intended to have everyone learn to count the chords. Count 1234 for each chord. You can play a whole on the LH, just count internally for 4 beats.

If you are not exact with the rhythm, you will have no way of aligning accents to offbeats because you won't be aware of where the offbeats are. Swinging comes from this accent alignment which gives the sensation of forward momentum, like you're going to fall on the downbeat.
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#1010233 - 12/30/07 04:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Hi Everyone,

Regarding the Circle of fifths question:

Let me repost the scale degrees and scale again:

G Scale: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, substituted below.

There is no F in the G scale. G scale has F#

So the scale degrees are as follows:

I - GM7
ii - Am7
iii - Bm7
IV - CM7
V - D7
vi - Em7
vii - F#m7b5

Circle of fifth motion goes like this:

IV CM7
vii F#m7b5
iii Bm7
vi Em7
ii Am7
V D7
I GMaj7

Or just memorize 4-7-3-6-2-5-1.

So do you notice that Autumn Leaves has this?

vii F#m7b5
iii Bm7 (changed to B7b9)
vi Em7

ii Am7
V D7
I GMaj7

Thus, it is true that Autumn Leaves follows the circle of Fifths. But Matthijs is also right in that this:

vii F#m7b5
iii B7b9
vi Em7

is a minor ii-V-i in Em. That's the reason we emphasize the B7b9 instead of leaving the original Bm7 in there.

The mistake in thinking of the Circle is not thinking of the notes of the scale. So think F# in G scale. Not F.
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#1010234 - 12/30/07 04:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by jotur:
Hm. A while back Kreisler was posting classical music and then analyzing it. In the G7-C7-F example that I gave he called the G7 the "applied dominant". I've also thought of it as the "V of the V" chord. And the "circle of 4ths" terminology I read in a "how to play piano with chords" or similar place. The G7 is, of course, built on the second degree of of the F scale, but is not the same chord is the ii chord in F. Nonetheless, for me at this point in time ;\) there is a relationship between Gmin and G7 and the progression to C7 that helps me put a framework on the harmony that's being used.

FWIW, YMMV as Yuri says \:\)

Cathy [/b]
Cathy, this is where it could get confusing.

The progression

G7 - C7 - F could be construed as a non-2-5-1.

Yes you could look at G7 as a substitute for Gm7 but one has to look at the context of an entire tune. An alternative explanation is that between G7 and C7, there's a modulation from C to F. G7 is 5th of C and C7 is 5th of F. In music theory, dominant sevenths are frequently used to to signify modulation.

Frequently this progression is made even clear with a sequence like this:

| Dm7 | G7 | Gm7 | C7 | F |

Notice the gradual changeover between G7 and Gm7. Very common in jazz actually. Also the reverse is done, |Gm7 | G7 | C |
So at Gm7, you think you're going to to C7 but the chord fakes you out and off it goes to a different direction. This is actually one of the 'fun' parts of jazz is that it does this a lot. So the progressions take an unexpected turn.
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#1010235 - 12/30/07 04:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
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Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1915
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
So my simple melody is absolutely non-jazz and non-swinging. It is intended to have everyone learn to count the chords.[/b]
OK, that makes sense. \:\)
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#1010236 - 12/30/07 05:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
So my simple melody is absolutely non-jazz and non-swinging. It is intended to have everyone learn to count the chords.[/b]
OK, that makes sense. \:\) [/b]
Perhaps if we all learned from sheet music we wouldn't have this problem, but I think it is good training since we don't normally work from anything but leadsheets or just a progression.

In retrospect, my coming out with a swinging version the 1st time around may have caused a lot of confusion on the time. I'm learning as we go along here.
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#1010237 - 12/30/07 05:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jotur Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5640
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
posted by jazzwee:

An alternative explanation is that between G7 and C7, there's a modulation from C to F. G7 is 5th of C and C7 is 5th of F. In music theory, dominant sevenths are frequently used to to signify modulation.

Frequently this progression is made even clear with a sequence like this:

| Dm7 | G7 | Gm7 | C7 | F |

Notice the gradual changeover between G7 and Gm7. Very common in jazz actually. - End Quote

Yes, the use of the dominant 7th often signals a modulation - I learned that before I could even say "modulation" - \:D and had asked how to change keys to play a tune in a different key in the context of one long piece, and was told to use the V chord of the key I was going to.

In the Dm7-G7-Gm7-C7-F what I see is the F natural that is common between Dm7 and G7, and the Bb that is common between the Gm7 and the C7, as furthering that progression's sound to get to the F chord. It is interesting to me that jazz players conceptualize it differently and that's part of what I'm interested in this thread for, so I find both yours and Mahlzeit's posts really valuable. It just still helps me to have a "hook to hang my hat on" to see the D-G-G-C-F parts of it, with variations \:\)

EDIT: - whoops, got my quote editing messed up, so just indicated it by hand.

Cathy
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#1010238 - 12/30/07 05:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
Yes, Cathy, the Fmaj7 would be common to both key of C and key of F. But that's where context comes in (what came before and what comes after).

In jazz, though, you wouldn't modulate from F back to C without some intervening progression, i.e. I couldn't think of F as belonging to a C scale at that point.

In Autumn Leaves, one modulates to by having a sequence like GMaj7 CMaj7 (similar to your C to F example). In the case of your original progression, since C7 went to F, then I look at that as V I.

C7 F C would be a modulation on the final C.

Interesting stuff huh?

Sorry I missed the [BRAIN EXPLOSION WARNING] but you guys started this \:D
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#1010239 - 12/30/07 05:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
BLScape Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hey Guys!

Just found this thread! Lot's of good stuff. Thanks for the reference in the thread I posted.
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#1010240 - 12/30/07 05:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
RhondaLynne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 119
Loc: Chicago
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.

Is this right? Thanks.
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#1010241 - 12/30/07 06:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
bluekeys Offline
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 1337
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.

Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
I can't say whether it's right or wrong, but I'm doing the same thing with one exception. In the sequence that goes |Em7 A7|Dm7 G7| I play the 1/7s for the Em7 and the Dm7 using the keys next to each other (D3E3 for Em7 and C3D3 for Dm7) I think it's easier to do and sounds better. Hopefully that won't mess me up later. (My initial recording didn't do that, though.)

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#1010242 - 12/30/07 06:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzyprof Offline
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Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2642
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.

Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
Yes, this is right, for now. I think the idea is to first learn the shapes of the 1-7 voicings. Later on I believe we'll find that alternating 1-7 with 1-3 makes for much smoother voice leading and your hand won't jump around as much.
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#1010243 - 12/30/07 07:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.
[/b]
RhondaLynne - I tried both approaches:

1 - A up to D down to G ... (like you are doing), and
2 - A down to D up to G ...

I thought that the approach that you are using sounded the best because it kept the root and seventh a little bit higher on the keyboard. The other approach moved the two base notes too low and and they sounded kind of muddy. (at least on my keyboard.)

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#1010244 - 12/30/07 09:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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#1010245 - 12/30/07 10:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
re accents...

I am working on accents. Should I accent the notes under both hands, or just the right hand?

Also, when I play, the notes coming from my left hand just seem too loud. When I listen to the recordings that you folks have posted on the thread, your right hand melodies really sparkle through clearly. Your left hand harmonies are much more subdued than mine and in balance with the melody. Does anybody have any tips on how to lighten the left hand? Could my piano bench be off level, maybe listing a bit to one side? ;\)

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#1010246 - 12/30/07 11:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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#1010247 - 12/30/07 11:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Thanks Ritincop. I always soften my LH. 1/7 played loud can sound kind of harsh.

BTW guys - I'm teaching you to practice 1/7's because in Lesson #2 (several pages back), I'm having you do 3rds in the RH. See the post with 3 notes for the Autumn Leaves chords. You need to follow the 3rd movements in your RH so you can get used to that for solos.

A beginner's solo approach is to start enhancing the 3rds with approach notes and suddenly you will be playing some real melodies. So although 1/7 and 1/3 is better for smooth voice leading, it is much easier to learn than sticking to 1/7's only so, if you can, stick the to 1/7 methodology and start playing 3rds in your RH.

You can switch between both methods if you like, and certainly 1/7 1/3 is ok when playing just the melody. But the important exercise here which will develop you later is playing 3rds on the RH, and actually understanding that they are thirds of the chords you're working with.
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#1010248 - 12/30/07 11:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
re accents...

I am working on accents. Should I accent the notes under both hands, or just the right hand?
;\) [/b]
The only time I would ever think about accenting the LH would be if I'm playing a walking bass line. So in general, the LH plays straight and accenting is on the RH.

Remember that accenting is on 8th notes only. There are no accents to worry about (that you can specifically practice) on quarter notes or sixteenth notes.
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#1010249 - 12/30/07 11:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc.
[/b]
RhondaLynne - I tried both approaches:

1 - A up to D down to G ... (like you are doing), and
2 - A down to D up to G ...

I thought that the approach that you are using sounded the best because it kept the root and seventh a little bit higher on the keyboard. The other approach moved the two base notes too low and and they sounded kind of muddy. (at least on my keyboard.) [/b]
Keyboardjungle, using 1/7's, the Am7 is played on A2 then D3, then G2, then C3. So don't play too low on the keyboard or it will sound muddy.

Those who are using 1/3's will also sound better higher on the keyboard. 1/7 1/3's can also work in A3 then D4, G3 and C4. I might switch them around once in awhile to vary the sound.
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#1010250 - 12/31/07 12:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
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That's why it makes sense to think of it as two 2-5-1's. Am-D7-G is a 2-5-1 in the key of G, F#m7b5-B7(b9)-Em is a 2-5-1 in the key of Em (which is the relative minor of G). With a C chord to connect the two.[/b]

Thanks, Matt...That's the main way I'm going to think of this song from now on - a couple of good ol' 2-5-1 patterns. \:D

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#1010251 - 12/31/07 01:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Elssa, there is an advantage in improvisation later on from thinking of it as one whole circle of fifth thing vs. two sets of 2-5-1's.

If you think of just one whole diatonic scale, then your solo choices are limited to the G Scale diatonic notes.

If you think of the minor 2-5-1 as being separate, minor 2-5-1's use a different scale for each chord which opens up tremenduous choices in improvisation. This changes the color of the tune and makes a possibly bland tune a pretty open platform in jazz playing.
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#1010252 - 12/31/07 02:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
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Registered: 01/15/05
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It's so interesting the way the keys change back and forth between major and minor in this tune.. guess that's kind of unusual, huh?

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#1010253 - 12/31/07 10:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jazzwee:
[QB] Thanks Ritincop. I always soften my LH. 1/7 played loud can sound kind of harsh.

BTW guys - I'm teaching you to practice 1/7's because in Lesson #2 (several pages back), I'm having you do 3rds in the RH. See the post with 3 notes for the Autumn Leaves chords. You need to follow the 3rd movements in your RH so you can get used to that for solos.

A beginner's solo approach is to start enhancing the 3rds with approach notes and suddenly you will be playing some real melodies. So although 1/7 and 1/3 is better for smooth voice leading, Jazzwee - This has me perplexed, because most of the melody notes in this tune are the third of the chord. I printed your post and went through it chord by chord, just to make sure that I understood.

So, with a very few exceptions, I am playing 1/7 in LH and a single melody note, the 3rd, in the RH. Am I on the right track?

In some cases, such as the D7 that is played over "drift by my window", the melody starts on the 1st (D) and moves up to the 3rd(F#). In such cases, would it be acceptable to play 1/3 in the right hand over the word "drift" by putting the 3rd *above* the melody note?

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#1010254 - 12/31/07 10:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
LaValse Offline
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The next quarterly recital is going to be interesting - 6 zillion submissions of Autumn Leaves... \:\)
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#1010255 - 12/31/07 11:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
LaValse Offline
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Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 1224
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 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc. Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
Hi RhondaLynne,

It's just a thought but... I found if you use 51 31 fingering for each 'pair' of 7ths it feels much more natural, i.e. 51 for Am7 then 31 for D7 etc. I also found rotating/sliding rather than jumping made it much easier. i.e. as if you were trying to play the LH legato but let go early kindasortaish... \:\)
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#1010256 - 12/31/07 12:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
So, with a very few exceptions, I am playing 1/7 in LH and a single melody note, the 3rd, in the RH. Am I on the right track?

In some cases, such as the D7 that is played over "drift by my window", the melody starts on the 1st (D) and moves up to the 3rd(F#). In such cases, would it be acceptable to play 1/3 in the right hand over the word "drift" by putting the 3rd *above* the melody note? [/b]
Keyboardjungle, no that's not what I mean. I'm saying as a separate practice, play 1/7 on the left and 3rd on the RH but with no melody.

This is training for improvisation/solo.

Remember the jazz format: You play the melody (Head) one time. Then you solo. Then you play the Head again to end the tune. Since we haven't learned to solo, just do LH 1/7 and RH 3 and familiarize your ears and fingers with that landscape. When you feel like taking the leap, start adding a note or two to the 3rd. Use long notes, like a horn player. For simple ballad style, during the solo, just arpeggiate the whole chord or modify the melody a little bit or mix up the 3rds and the melody.
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#1010257 - 12/31/07 12:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
LESSON #3

Progressing from LH 1/7's[/b]

BTW, we haven't really formally discussed 1/7's and 1/3's on the LH. But those doing this would actually do the following fingering on Am7 - D7:

Style A[/b]

Am7 (LH fingers 51 playing 1/7), D7 (LH fingers 32 or 21 playing 1/3)

Edit: (Note that 21 works better in Am7 and 32 works better in F#m7b5.)

And you could do this:

Style B[/b]

Am7 (LH fingers 521 playing 1/5/7), D7 (LH fingers 531 playing 1/3/7). This is the fuller LH sound and is an easy natural next step from the LH 1/7.

Style A is in preparation for two handed chords. Style B is good for chords on LH only which leaves the RH free to do only the melody or solo.

I would learn both ways. Now notice that the Am7 has a 5 in the middle while the the D7 has a 3 in the middle. This is because lower chords (Like root at A2) get muddy with a 3rd. The 5th is high enough. On the other hand, the D7 does not sound muddy with a 3rd (D3).

So basically in this style of playing add a middle note to the chord, a 5th or 3rd depending on which is less muddy.

BTW - those wanting to play cocktail style could arpeggiate the 3 notes slowly on the LH. (Those more advanced could arpeggiate 1, 7, 10 or 1, 5, 10).
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#1010258 - 12/31/07 12:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
RhondaLynne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 119
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc. Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
Hi RhondaLynne,

It's just a thought but... I found if you use 51 31 fingering for each 'pair' of 7ths it feels much more natural, i.e. 51 for Am7 then 31 for D7 etc. I also found rotating/sliding rather than jumping made it much easier. i.e. as if you were trying to play the LH legato but let go early kindasortaish... \:\) [/b]
LaValse - Much better - Thank you. (it didn't even occur to me to use that fingering!)
_________________________
Rhonda

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#1010259 - 12/31/07 01:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1582
Loc: NY
Matt, I was wondering what you think of this site?

The Magic Wand that turns Summer into Autumn:

http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/aut.htm


"But Johnny Mercer is a lot smarter than you perhaps think. The B7 is not a spoil sport at all, but instead a magic wand, turning the bright G major summer sound instantly into the darker E minor autumn mood.

The Am7 - D7 - GΔ - CΔ is clearly a segment of the G major scale. However the dominant B7 chord converts the F#ø chord before it as the IIø chord in an E minor IIø - V7 - Im segment.

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