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#1010170 - 12/28/07 04:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
I've never had to figure anything out by ear.

This could be interesting!

A classical addict turned jazz!
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#1010171 - 12/28/07 04:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
Playadom: I posted a link to a leadsheet on the previous page of this thread.
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#1010172 - 12/28/07 04:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
playadom Offline
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Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Playadom: I posted a link to a leadsheet on the previous page of this thread. [/b]
Found it.

Thanks!
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#1010173 - 12/28/07 04:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
Also, a handy tip in these kinds of situations is to go to a site like MusicNotes.com or SheetMusicPlus.com and look up the tune. These sites will show you the first page for free (though you may have to install a browser plugin in order to see the sheet music). That's a great way to get started with a tune.

For example, Autumn Leaves is at:
http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0028996
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#1010174 - 12/28/07 04:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Matthijs, that's great that's the entire A section right there on MusicNotes.
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#1010175 - 12/28/07 05:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5561
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E... \:D \:D

In the key of Em, B7 would have a flat 9 since C is in the scale. ;\)

Jazzers are theory geeks...sorry [/b]


Cathy
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#1010176 - 12/28/07 05:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
RhondaLynne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 119
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

Here's a professional version of Autumn Leaves played by Jazz Master Keith Jarrett.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y [/b]


7+ minutes of pure joy from that not even 2-page lead sheet.
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#1010177 - 12/28/07 05:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Amazing isn't it Rhonda? It just gives me goose bumps to listen to that. I promise that everyone who does this study group will end up playing like that!


...Yeah right \:D \:D \:D \:D It will be a 200 year study group ;\)
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#1010178 - 12/28/07 06:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
http://www.box.net/shared/rvd1yqmckc

Here's my recording, one thing I discovered is playing 1-7 alternate with 1-3 is much easier and more pleasant to my ears.

Am(a-g),D7(d-f#), GM7(g-f#),CM7(c-e) F#7(f#-e)...

Jazzwee, any comment ? on my recording, should I just stick to 1-7 for now ?

Serge
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#1010179 - 12/28/07 06:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Fantastic Serge88! Good job.

1/7 1/3 is the voice leading approach and we will in fact play it this way later. So this is correct.

However, there is a reason we are practicing 1/7.

What I'm trying to pass here is the idea of playing the third on the RH because your solos will need to find that third automatically. So this is part of the mental training. You need to find that 3rd at all times without thinking. It is the most important note on the RH.

You can play 1/7 (ii chord) 1/3 (V chord) on the LH and still play the 3rd on the RH. You will end up doubling the third. Not a big deal for now. So you can keep doing it this way on the LH but later I will explain what happens to the RH voicing when you play 1/7 1/3.
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#1010180 - 12/28/07 07:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
If anybody is interested, the Hal Leonard "Best Fake Book Ever" has this tune in the key of G, if anybody needs the melody. Plus, for the $40 or so, you get another 1000 lead sheets with melody lines.

I'm going to join in. I have been studying this on my own for a year or so, but was never very successful at application. Maybe this thread will help. I'm just wrapping up Alfred's Adult Book 2. I think that I'll spend a couple of months polishing up the pieces in book 2 and following this thread before moving on to book 3.

Thanks for all your recordings. I have enjoyed them and learned a lot from them already.

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#1010181 - 12/28/07 11:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Here's my recording. A slow version. I added some RH notes under the harmony. Just sounded fuller to me. I'm excited to participate in this thread. I have a long way to go...

http://www.box.net/shared/hph7rzeo08

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#1010182 - 12/29/07 12:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Learning to Swing[/b]

On our Jazz Improvisation thread, we discussed swing. I've compiled some quickie recordings so we can discuss the correct way to swing.

All I'm playing here is Am7-D7-Gmaj7 on the LH, then I'm running through the G Major scale on my RH. This is just a raw view to compare the differences between three ways of playing. There are lots of gray in between but these are extremes.

NO SWING
This recording is played straight as you play it in classical music or Rock.
http://www.box.net/shared/uf0thaksos

SWING
This is how I swing the same line. Note the accents on the offbeat. http://www.box.net/shared/cmgedcy88c

INCORRECT SWING
This is an exaggerated dotted eight + 16th swing style. Not jazzy at all.
http://www.box.net/shared/eladihgooc

When I play the Autumn Leaves melody, you will notice that I don't accent the downbeats. They're a little softer than the upbeats.

So if counting
| 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 | & 1....
Only the '&' gets an accent. The '&' is a tad shorter than the downbeats as well. How short is a matter of styling. Some people play just a tiny bit shorter. Some players reach a ratio of 2:1 between a downbeat and upbeat pair. Mine tends to be closer to 1:1.

Think about this carefully when playing the melody. This takes awhile to master so don't expect immediate results but practice scales with swing in the RH.
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#1010183 - 12/29/07 12:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Deeluk, you had a very nice melody on the RH! If you're having problems with the rhythm, play only whole notes on the LH so you can worry about one hand at a time. It's hard to think of too many things.

KeyboardJungle, welcome and join us with questions and problem solving to get you going.
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#1010184 - 12/29/07 12:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Most of us have a problem with Rhythm and it is one of the key things about jazz. Swing itself requires a constant awareness of each eight note pulse.

So I would do some slow counting to see where the melody fits into each measure. Now if you listen to the way I do it, after awhile, you can make the melody sing a little and not land exactly on the beat. A little high speed Rubato is often used. Don't do it like that yet. Just keep it simple and in time.

Just remember that in Autumn Leaves, there's 2 1/2 beats before the main chord starts.

So in your head keep counting
& | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 |....

Then the melody goes
| & 3 4 | 1 | & 3 4 | 1 |
| No Chord | Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 |
The^ Fal- ling | Leaves | Drift^ By my | Window |

So Am7 starts on 'Leaves'. Gmaj7 starts on 'Window'. D7 starts 1 1/2 beats before 'Drift'.

Except for the '&' , notice that all these notes are on the downbeat so none of the other notes in this sequence gets an accent.

This is how precise everything is to get that distinctive rhythmic feel. I KNOW it's tough. If you play it like you sing it, you will play it naturally.

I will probably have to record a super simplified version that just tracks the beats of the melody.
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#1010185 - 12/29/07 05:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
If anybody is interested, the Hal Leonard "Best Fake Book Ever" has this tune in the key of G, if anybody needs the melody. [/b]
Be aware that the chords have at least one error in it. It's not an Fm7b5 but an F#m7b5.
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#1010186 - 12/29/07 08:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Learning to Swing[/b]

SWING
This is how I swing the same line. Note the accents on the offbeat. http://www.box.net/shared/cmgedcy88c
Does not sound like swing to me. Only accent on the off beat.

 Quote:

INCORRECT SWING
This is an exaggerated dotted eight + 16th swing style. Not jazzy at all.
http://www.box.net/shared/eladihgooc
Now this sounds like jazz to me.

I think I have a problem with jazz rhythm. \:\(

Serge
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#1010187 - 12/29/07 08:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 3195
Loc: Canton, MI
LaValse...nice job
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#1010188 - 12/29/07 09:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
If anybody is interested, the Hal Leonard "Best Fake Book Ever" has this tune in the key of G, if anybody needs the melody. [/b]
Be aware that the chords have at least one error in it. It's not an Fm7b5 but an F#m7b5. [/b]
Yes - I just figured that out after spending about 15 minutes this morning trying to make the Fm7b5 sound right. After listening to it clash with the A note in the melody, I went through the chords in the key that we are in and realized that the chord should be F#.

There are other differences, but I think that they are just differences, not necessarily mistakes. It was a good excercise to compare and contrast the HL version with ours. Also, it was rewarding to reason through an error in a fake book, come up with a better solution, and then get confirmation with my ears and on the thread. Thanks mahlzeit. I'll be switching to our version.

This is a little bit OT, so please respond with a personal message rather than posting to the thread. I am having trouble with my sound. I upgraded quick time and could hear files playing until I stopped QuickTime. When I started it again, the files played, but didn't produce sound. If anybody has any tips on configuring quick time, please send me a PM.

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#1010189 - 12/29/07 10:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
RhondaLynne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 119
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Learning to Swing[/b]

SWING
This is how I swing the same line. Note the accents on the offbeat. http://www.box.net/shared/cmgedcy88c
Does not sound like swing to me. Only accent on the off beat.

 Quote:

INCORRECT SWING
This is an exaggerated dotted eight + 16th swing style. Not jazzy at all.
http://www.box.net/shared/eladihgooc
Now this sounds like jazz to me.

I think I have a problem with jazz rhythm. \:\(

Serge [/b]
I thought the same thing as Serge88.
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#1010190 - 12/29/07 11:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Serge88 and Rhonda, trust me on this, focus on accenting the offbeat. Don't do the "Lawrence Welk" swing. If you listen to the jazz masters, it's the accent that makes it sound like jazz.

I played it close to straight eighths as I explained. Someone like Bill Evans or Wynton Kelly makes the first eight longer, but the key in all of their playing is still the accent on the offbeat. That's the critical element here. If you do this, you sound professional.

The other effect that jazz players will do is drag the beat but again it's really dragging the accent so it doesn't fall exactly on an eight note pulse.

All students new to jazz think of the 'Dotted eighth + sixteenth' as the correct swing style (including me). It took awhile to correct this concept through a teacher and listening more closely.

Now sometimes the accent is more subtle. Keith Jarret's accents are not as pronounced. The faster you play the more the accents disappear and you play straight (like 16ths are played straight).

Listen to the Autumn Leaves videos. Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans both have a longer first eighth but it's happening so fast that it's hard to dissect. But all have accents on the offbeat and Oscar and Bill have stronger accents than Jarret.
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#1010191 - 12/29/07 12:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Jazzwee, I had trouble with your swing example too. Not that it wasn't swinging, but I found myself wanting a longer snippet to listen to. Perhaps not as fast either. Could you post something a little longer if you have a chance?

I've been trying to practice this myself. Over in the other thread, the article about practicing scales with a metronome ticking on 2 and 4 really threw me for a loop. I found it really tough. Then, trying to accent the upbeats and make them shorter I found impossible. But I definitely hear what you're talking about in the phrasing of the pros. There's the unmistakable quality to it that really makes it sing. Errrr swing. ;\)

I found a practice routine in Tim Richards' jazz book that I've been using for this. He has you playing arps or scales around a ii-V-I-IV cycle. Then make the I a minor and continue. So, for example, Bm-E-A-D, Am-D-G-C, etc.

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#1010192 - 12/29/07 12:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Mike A Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 520
Loc: So.Cal.USA
Very good discussion of learning swing feel here , including examples of what isn't swing. Doesn't include media files, unfortunately, but the text and scored examples are still very useful.

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#1010193 - 12/29/07 12:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Hi deeluk, in jazz, the faster you play (particularly at the pace that some of us were playing the melody, about 150bpm or so), the straighter the eighth pairs. Only in slow swing would you need to focus on making the first eight significantly longer (the triplet feel, two notes of the triplet in the first eight and the last remaining note of the triplet in the last eight).

As you go faster, the difference between the two eighths diminish. I re-listened to myself and I wasn't playing it straight really. I could detect that the first eighth was slightly longer.

My advice is to not think about making the second eighth shorter. When we play, the sizes of the eight pairs might keep changing even in a line. Just focus on the accent. When I deliberately make the second note shorter, my teacher will remind me to 'straighten out'.
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#1010194 - 12/29/07 12:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Mike A, I've read that article so many times a long time ago and until you really hear it, one can still remain confused because the article is a bit advanced.

Garcia talks about mistakes like 'Accenting the downbeat', or playing same note pairs 'Evenly'. But he doesn't clearly explain how to learn swing. It's more like he's debugging someone who is swinging incorrectly.

I wish, he started off saying that one should 'Accent' something, because to a beginner, the biggest issue is that there is no accent.
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#1010195 - 12/29/07 01:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1567
Loc: NY
Great study group idea! :p

Well, here's something I recorded last year.. It's in ballad form in key of G/Eminor with some arps and runs. When I played it for my jazz teacher at the time, he said it was terrible and really needs to be played with a "swing", not as a ballad! (but here it is anyway). :rolleyes: My goal is to learn to "swing it" and also to improvise with the chords. \:\)

Autumn Leaves
http://www.box.net/shared/0b668mh13j

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#1010196 - 12/29/07 02:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Van Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 1215
Loc: S. California
That's lovely elssa! It may not be jazz but it's very very pretty, wonderful phrasing (lol, when I read that you can't use pedals in jazz music I pretty much gave up hope \:\) )

This is very much the sound I'm going for these days. Do you have a piano solo only version without the strings? You improvised this right?
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#1010197 - 12/29/07 02:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Just for background, the LH is just doing 1/7's like what we're discussing here and the right hand playing a simple melody.
[/b]
Jazzwee - Are you are playing your 1/7 progression for the A section using the following notes for the 1?

Start on A1
up to D2
down to G1
up to C2
down to F#1
up to B1
down to E1

Thanks

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#1010198 - 12/29/07 02:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1567
Loc: NY
Thanks, Van! \:\) I guess this is more "cocktail" than "jazz", but I really enjoy all styles of piano music myself. I honestly don't know how to get rid of those strings - I recorded it live with piano and strings together (no overdubbing or whatever they call it) because that's the only way I know how to record. When I learn to swing it, though, I'll definitely just use piano - no strings.

"You improvised this right?"

Well, I sort of learned it by ear. I've been a member of PianoMagic for about two years, and though they don't focus on jazz, they do discuss various chord patterns found in jazz a lot such as 2-5-1, 1-6-2-5, as well as the Circle of 5ths, so that was a big help. \:\)

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#1010199 - 12/29/07 02:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
ganymed Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 5
wow elssa. **** MAN! that was awesome!!!!

How can you play that well ?!!?!!!

Im amazed!!

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