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#1010260 - 12/31/07 01:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Elssa, that's exactly what we've been discussing! Great post.

The effect of that in improvisation is significant. Although there will really be more to it when we discuss scales to use for each chord. But I will hold off discussing all that so we don't get everyone too confused.
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#1010261 - 12/31/07 01:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RhondaLynne:
A question for anyone here - I'm playing 1-7 in the left hand and my left hand is all over the place with roots going from A up to D then back down to G, then up to C, down to F#, up to B, etc. Is this right? Thanks. [/b]
Hi RhondaLynne,

It's just a thought but... I found if you use 51 31 fingering for each 'pair' of 7ths it feels much more natural, i.e. 51 for Am7 then 31 for D7 etc. I also found rotating/sliding rather than jumping made it much easier. i.e. as if you were trying to play the LH legato but let go early kindasortaish... \:\) [/b]
LaValse - Much better - Thank you. (it didn't even occur to me to use that fingering!) [/b]
RhondaLynne, in the lesson#3 I posted, the fingering for 1/7 1/3 is

51 and 32. That's the smoothest.

But don't feel uncomfortable jumping up and down the keyboard playing 1/7's. In slow playing that's perfectly normal. It's automatic to me now.

In stride playing, you're playing roots on the far left and jumping to a chord in the middle. We will be discussing this kind of playing so what I'm discussing will be a natural movement.
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#1010262 - 12/31/07 03:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
DeepElem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 366
Loc: USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
RhondaLynne, in the lesson#3 I posted, the fingering for 1/7 1/3 is 51 and 32. That's the smoothest.[/b]
FWIW, my jazz teacher will sometimes tell me a couple of fingering options for something like this and says to try them all and stick with whatever is most comfortable for me. Of course for some things he has a "strongly recommended" fingering, but this isn't one of those cases.

jazzwee, is there something coming up for which fingering the 1/3 as 32 is important ?
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#1010263 - 12/31/07 04:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
LESSON #3

Progressing from LH 1/7's[/b]

[/b]
OMG, we're already up to lesson 3?!!! I guess I've been a slacker...still trying to master lesson 1! \:\)

I think we're going to need an index to the lessons and the theory discussions. Perhaps we can compile such an index and add it to the first post of this thread indicating where things may be found. As this thread swells to a monster size it will be difficult to wade through all its pages to find, for example, "how to swing."

OK, taking a stab at an index:
Autumn Leaves changes
Swing
Learning to swing
Lesson 1
Lesson 2
Lesson 3
Shell voicings (1/7)
Circle of Fifths
2-5-1
Scale degrees and scale tone seventh chords
Shell voicing with added RH third
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#1010264 - 12/31/07 04:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
jazzprof, if you can help me with maintaining the indexing I'd appreciate it. I'll post it at the top. This is one hell of a project!
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#1010265 - 12/31/07 05:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by DeepElem:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
RhondaLynne, in the lesson#3 I posted, the fingering for 1/7 1/3 is 51 and 32. That's the smoothest.[/b]
FWIW, my jazz teacher will sometimes tell me a couple of fingering options for something like this and says to try them all and stick with whatever is most comfortable for me. Of course for some things he has a "strongly recommended" fingering, but this isn't one of those cases.

jazzwee, is there something coming up for which fingering the 1/3 as 32 is important ? [/b]
Yes, DeepElem, fingering 1/3 as 32 will allow you to play it legato and it will allow for quick movement. If you switch from 1/7 to 1/3 with 51 31 fingering, you'll have to pedal the chord change. Also the LH 1 being free allows you to have it available for the next chord.

Edit: You can also play 21 fingering instead of 32. For me 21 works on Am7 and 32 works better on F#m7b5

There's a specific two handed chord playing I will discuss later that specifically uses this fingering which will be 2 + 3 voicings (two notes on LH and 3 notes on RH. This voicing is good for comping (accompaniment).
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#1010266 - 12/31/07 05:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Moderator C7 Player has kindly added this thread to the 'Important Topics in AB Forum' so we are now an official study group!
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#1010267 - 12/31/07 06:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
bluekeys Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 1337
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzyprof:
OMG,
we're already up to lesson 3?!!! I guess I've been a slacker...still trying to master lesson 1! \:\)

I think we're going to need an index to the lessons and the theory discussions. [/b]
You are not a slacker, Prof! I'm not only still on 1, but struggling mightily with it. My left hand just won't obey my brain and wants to go to F# instead of G after the D7. Also I still only hit the bouncy LH changes in the B sec maybe 1 out of 3 times.

Anyway, the index is very helpful. Thanks! \:\)

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#1010268 - 12/31/07 09:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5284
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Heh, only when you try to record do you realize the kind of trouble you're in. \:D [/b]
Amen. Here's my first recording. My fans are gonna be disappointed \:D \:D

www.box.net/shared/mmrhi734k4

However, I did reread parts of this thread last night and I can now see the ii-V-I's, including when I play! Progress -

I'll have to wait till Weds at work to listen to more of the recordings here - I won't be getting high speed here at home until late spring, due to changing jobs, spending money on a new car, and an upcoming trip to New Zealand in March, which have all contributed to a little less excess money for awhile. But I'm looking forward to it -

Cathy
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#1010269 - 12/31/07 11:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Cathy - that's very good! Everything is on the correct beat so you've won half the battle.

On the LH just do whole notes and very lightly. Or slurred half notes.

You're just like me -- practicing piano on New Year's Eve!
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#1010270 - 01/01/08 12:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
Ok here's my second version

http://www.box.net/shared/0q22ga144s

this time no swinging, 1-7 in the lh and 3rd in the rh + melody. When the melody is the 3rd I play a 5th.

Serge
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#1010271 - 01/01/08 01:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Serge88, that sounds great! I think you need to get promoted now. Melody is in perfect synch to the chords.

Swing can be practiced side by side but it takes awhile to get that mastered just like any piano technique. So keep doing swing but don't let it hold you back.

You need to move into the improvisation side now and start to 'blow' as they say. Now see if you can begin to focus on making an alternate melody but keep it anchored to the 3rds initially. Later, eye all the chord tones (root, 5th, and 7th as well).
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#1010272 - 01/01/08 03:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
This must be the best version of Autumn Leaves I have ever heard. Done at a very slow swing tempo. Jazz at it's best.

Album: Somethin' Else
Art Blakely
Hank Jones
Cannonball Adderly
Miles Davis

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Somethin-Else-Remastered-Cannonball-Adderley/dp/B00000I41J

If you have an Ipod, invest in this track.

Most of it isn't piano but there's so much to learn here.
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#1010273 - 01/01/08 11:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
LaValse Offline
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Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 1224
Loc: Mumbles, Wales
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#1010274 - 01/01/08 12:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
Can somebody clarify register nomenclaturefor me?

- The first full octave is C0...B0.
- The octave that starts on middle C is C3...B3.
- This would make the first A on the keyboard A-1.

Am I correct?

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#1010275 - 01/01/08 01:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
KeyboardJungle, I don't know about official nomenclature is but I counted the first full octave as 1, at least in my comments to you. So I looked at middle C as C4.

I don't count the partial octave so maybe I'll call that zero.

I don't know if it's correct or not but at least that's the reference I used.
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#1010276 - 01/01/08 03:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
I think the most common nomenclature puts middle C at C-4. The numbering starts with the lowest C as C-1. The A and B below this are A-0 and B-0.

Edit: OK, just checked my keyboard and it calls low C C-0 and middle C C-3. Hmmmm, dunno what's correct. Is there no common standard? Pretty confusing.

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#1010277 - 01/01/08 04:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Kangamangusuk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 18
Loc: East Yorkshire
Hi All, may I join you please?

Firstly, a Happy New Year to everyone! I lurked for a short while, trying to build up sufficient confidence. Already, I have learned a lot from the many contributions & particularly JAZZWEE's explanations. Clearly a lot of effort & time has been put into this and I agree JAZZWEE deserves a medal (GOLD).

OK, I'm not very good, as you will see by the linked midi file recording (sorry, no MP3 facility), but I hope to improve.

http://www.box.net/shared/n33cqww008

I recognise, I need to tighten up my timing, quieten my left hand, learn expression & articulation plus a multitude of other problems, but it's great fun learning.

Will you have me?

David

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#1010278 - 01/01/08 05:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
David, you are more than welcome! Thanks for posting your music. Melody is right on the chords so you're on the right track.

Swing is a bit difficult to teach so keep reading the swing discussions and the longer writeup in the related thread. It will take awhile to achieve swing inflection so I recommend to most of you that you supplement our thread here with a lot of listening to jazz masters. Listen to the Rhythm section in particular to that you hear what you can do on the LH.

In the meantime, I hope everyone takes a stab at improvisation and learn to create alternate melodies.
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#1010279 - 01/01/08 05:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Kangamangusuk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 18
Loc: East Yorkshire
Thanks, now I need to practice some more!

David

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#1010280 - 01/01/08 05:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
.
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#1010281 - 01/01/08 08:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
bluekeys Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 1337
If anyone is interested, here is a clean midi file that sort of matches the simplified melody jazzwee posted. By clean, I mean I entered it through the computer keyboard, so all notes have precise (albeit mechanical-sounding) values. The bass and treble are on separate tracks, so if you have midi program like Anvil Studio, you can mute one and play the other, or you can change note values, or whatever. Also, if you have a program like MidiNotate you can use it to print out a lead sheet that matches jazz's version a little closer than some of the others floating around.

http://mysite.verizon.net/mdavidso1/midi/al_crude.mid

FYI - Both Anvil and MidiNotate have free versions available.

Anvil:
http://www.anvilstudio.com/upgraden.htm

MidiNotate:
http://www.notation.com/MidiNotatePlayer.htm

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#1010282 - 01/01/08 09:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Lucky for us, we have lurking jazz pros that give us comments.

So I learned an alternate fingering for 1/7(ii), 1/3(V) which I will share.

I was taught the fingering of 51 32. Apparently there's an alternate fingering for ii-V which is referred to as the 'Claw' and can be used in all 12 keys.

This fingering is is 51,21. I've just tried it and I can see that it has an advantage of moving easier to the I chord. I planning on shifting to this fingering, it seems to work well for me so I passing it along to all of you.

I've edited the above references to 32 fingering to also note the 21 fingering.
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#1010283 - 01/01/08 09:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
thanks Bluekeys for posting the MIDI file. That will be great for getting everyone to get the changes and the melody in synch.

I noticed that just about everyone had a problem with the LH doing a swing rhythm. Beginners need to learn to do what is called a Charleston Rhythm of the 20's. In this is the Rhythm that should be on the LH. This will lead the way to more complex rhythms. I have to find a way to demonstrate this or refer to a video.

My memory is that it is played on Beat 1, and 2+. Maybe bluekeys can experiment with it on MIDI.

This is the starting LH for jazz.
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#1010284 - 01/02/08 01:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
SWING

If you get a chance, watch this youtube video of someone swinging. It clearly demonstrates my point that it's all in the accents. This gentleman plays eights near the straight side (more even) which is like the way I would play.

Watch his accents on the upbeat (the +) and that's what makes it swing. He's playing 'Rhythm Changes'.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Fl3SrXrDHw

Here's another guy. He get's into eight notes further in to the tune though. This gentlemen plays straight eights even at a slower tempo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dE7GsFGolig&feature=related

Now Oscar Peterson does not play straight eights, as he's more of a heavy swinger, but the point is that all these examples show that the primary element is not just the triplet feel (which may be absent), but the accent is always there.

So this is hopefully what everyone is practicing on the RH - offbeat accents.

I'm still looking for a demonstration of the Charleston Rhythm for the LH, but in the absence of that, play the chord briefly on beat 1 and 2+. Count it out and you will see what I mean.

Notice there's a lot of counting in jazz. It's all about the rhythm.
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#1010285 - 01/02/08 04:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
SWING PART 2

After more careful thought and discussion with the pros, I think it would be best if we didn't syncopate the LH and just played straight half notes (full value) but light volume. And practice putting the swing into the melody. This will be a better baby step. It might be hard to swing both hands simultaneously at this early stage.
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#1010286 - 01/02/08 12:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
Jazzwee,

I need a checkpoint on my understanding - We should accent the notes corresponding to lyrics that are enclosed in below?

fall leaves
by window
aut leaves...

What about measures with whole notes - accent the note or not?

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#1010287 - 01/02/08 12:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Keyboardjungle based on your melody as shown in this link you passed to me,(thanks for passing this on BTW),

http://esvc001419.wic024u.server-web.com/articles/autsoc.gif

apparently, the original has no eight notes so there's no accent. Play the quarter notes marcato (detached). I've been playing this by ear and listening to various versions and never studied the original melody. In jazz tunes, each player will often modify the melody. I think I learned the original melody from Oscar Peterson's version and he made the 1st note an eight note pickup so it had an accent. So I was playing it differently, like this,

< The> fall -ing leaves
< drift> by my window
< The> aut-umn leaves...

With the first note being changed to an eight note. So at least the sheet music makes it clear that my version is derived from another version (Oscar).

Remember that jazz is a lot about listening. I listened to 5 different versions of the melody yesterday and some of them turn some the notes into eights and some keep it at quarter notes. So this changes the accents quite a bit.

Just remember that if you're going to play it with quarter notes as in the original melody, the quarter notes are detached. Not full value, i.e insert a short rest. Do not play quarter notes legato.

It is up to you to pick whichever melody style you like, or invent your own.
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#1010288 - 01/02/08 05:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Jazzwee, could we update the index to take us directly to the posts in question? Like this:

Autumn Leaves Changes
Swing version from jazzwee
Professional versions
Learning to swing
Lesson 1
Lesson 2
Lesson 3
Shell voicings (1/7)
Circle of fifths
2-5-1
Scale degrees
Shell voicings with added RH 3rd

Please double check these as I wasn't 100% sure I was linking to the post referenced.

For future reference, to generate the URLs for these links, just click the little yellow thing just before the posted on date at the very top of each post. Or hover over it and your browser will tell you what it is down in the status bar.

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#1010289 - 01/02/08 05:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Quoting from Wikipedia[/b]

 Quote:

Swung Note[/b]
In music, a swung note or shuffle note is the rhythmic device in which the duration of the initial note in a pair is augmented and that of the second is diminished. This term for what is known as "notes inégales" has been in use in jazz music and its descentants.

A swing or shuffle rhythm is the rhythm produced by playing repeated pairs of notes in this way. Lilting can refer to swinging, but might also indicate syncopation or other subtle ways of interpreting and shaping musical time.

In some jazz music, especially of the big band era, there is a convention that pairs of written eighth notes are not played equally--as the notation would otherwise be understood--but with the first longer than the second. The first note of each of these pairs is often understood to be twice as long as the second, implying a quarter note-eighth note triplet feel, but in practice the difference is rarely that pronounced (see "amount of swing," below). This is an assumed convention of notation in many styles of jazz, but usually does not apply to jazz before the early 1930s, latin jazz, bebop, or to the work of composers writing in the 1950s or later, unless "swing" is specified in the score.

Notes that are not swung are called straight notes.

Another important aspect of swung eighth notes is to slightly accent the "+" or second eighth note of each pair. In modern jazz where nearly even eighths has become common they still slightly accent every second eighth note of each pair to achieve a hint of swing. Latin musicians play straight eighths and will say they are "swinging" when they slightly accent the second eighth note of every even pair.

In dance, swing or shuffle time or rhythm is music whose meter is that of common time played with a swing. It may be written as simple time and played with a swing, or as compound time and played as written. See transcribing swing rhythms below.

Amount of swing[/b]

People sometimes mistakenly indicate swing rhythms by marking their scores with an indication that pairs of eighth notes should be treated as a quarter and an eighth in a triplet bracket. In actuality, swing rhythms range anywhere from slightly asymmetrical pairs to imbalances of a more pronounced sort (due to the mathematical nature of dividing one beat into 3 equal beats). The subtler end of the range involves treating written pairs of eighth notes as slightly asymmetrical pairs of similar values. On the other end of the spectrum, the "dotted eighth - one sixteenth" rhythm, consists of a long note three times as long as the short. Prevalent "dotted rhythms" such as these in the rhythm section of dance bands in the mid 20th century are more accurately described as a "shuffle"; they are also an important feature of baroque dance and many other styles. Rhythms identified as swung notes most commonly fall somewhere between straight eighths and a quarter-eighth triplet pattern.

The following points of reference are reliable only as approximations of musical practice:

1:1 = eighth note + eighth note, "straight eighths."
3:2 = long eighth + short eighth, "swing" or "shuffle"
2:1 = triplet quarter note + triplet eighth, triple meter; "medium swing" or "medium shuffle"
3:1 = dotted eighth note + sixteenth note; "hard swing", or "hard shuffle"
Since a swung note is actually not a note of the named length (a swung eighth note is not an eighth note), some musicians consider this term a misnomer.

A scientific analysis was done of Bill Evans eighth note swing ratio that revealed that he varied his swing ratio from pair to pair. Also, in general swing ratios tend to get get wider at slower tempos and narrower at faster tempos. Musicians often have different swing ratios and swing ratios can be effected by who you are playing with (drummers cymbal)... etc


Straight eight playing is common to certain Jazz artists. Nowadays, it would be the signature of Chick Corea, or Brad Mehldau. A lot of modern jazz artists, Kenny Werner comes to mind, tend to play straighter eights. Latin jazz artists will play straight eights as well and rely on accents. For Keith Jarret the accents would be more subtle. Even among older artists, Lennie Tristano played mostly with accents and straight eights.

Artists like Errol Garner, Red Garland, Wynton Kelly, Monty Alexander, McCoy Tyner, Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans (at fast tempo) are heavy swingers.

It will be interesting for everyone to listen to these artists (many of them or on Youtube) and get a sample of their swing style. Eventually you'll pick something that feels good to you.
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Noodling board
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New Movement Composed "To Rule" 4/20/2014
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Understanding Sharps
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When a beginner is not a beginner anymore?
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DEBUSSY-"Serenade for the Doll" from 'Children's Corner'
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