Originally posted by jazzwee:

he Charleston Rhythm, which is the source of the Jazz swing beat is based on
'Dotted Quarter Note + Eight Note'
or 1.5 beats + .5 beat.

...

In the old days, pre 1940's, jazz was played with this Rhythm on beat 1 so it will be on:
<1>+ 2<+> 3+ 4+ | <1>+ 2<+> 3+ 4+ |
Chord played on <>

...

Maybe Bluekeys can honor us with a MIDI version that's more accurate. [/b]

Originally posted by Kangamangusuk:

Jazzwee, I too am having problems with the RH swing. I can detect the sound from the masters in the vid clips, but actually putting it into practice on the keyboard is my difficulty. Have I correctly understood, the swing sound, we are all after, is created by accenting eighth notes on the offbeat (ie the plus of the beat helpfully explained by Rintincop)?

This is my amateurish attempt to create a midi comparison (not with the keyboard), using an up & down G scale. The first theoretically represents a heavier swing, the second 1:1 & the third, no swing. Do these sounds convey the differences, or is it 'barking up the wrong tree'?

http://www.box.net/shared/jkmt7x6gw4

Or, do you have any tips or practice routines for emulating the correct swing sound. When playing a scale from beat 1 & trying to accent the eighth note on the plus of each beat, I tend to lengthen the accented note. Should I start by playing the scale from 1+, instead of 1 for instance?

Sorry for the long message, but it would help, if I, & perhaps others, are put on the right track.

David [/b]

Originally posted by bluekeys:
What I'll do is encode my RH into a clean MIDI and add an LH track that attempts to do the Charleston Rhythm as you describe above. I'll do all that on the computer.
[/b]

Originally posted by jazzwee:
As you know in music theory, any Major Key has a relative Minor key and both use the same scale. The minor key is in the 6th degree of the Major scale.

So in C, the relative minor is Am.
In G the relative minor is Em.[/b]

Yes, indicated on the circle chart.

Expressed as a progression in the major scale, the sequence would be vii-iii-vi. Their intervals are exactly the same as ii-V-I. Fourths apart.[/b]

More "shifting", still with you.

Remember the vii degree is a half diminished (minor 7 b5), and the iii is a minor. Except the iii chord (Bm7) doesn't create a dominant tonic relationship so the Bm7 is converted to B7 in Autumn Leaves.[/b]

Funny, I was going to ask in the last post why this wouldn't be a Bm7.

Note that in the key of G, Em, there's no Db in the key (the 9th of B). So you play a B with a C (a half step away). That gives us the B7b9. Flat 9 is a half step interval. You can still play the b3 or really in this case it would be called #9 (which is D). So using the same scale you now have B7b9#9 which is pretty much the same as Bm7 except we focus on the b9 more. This kind of dominant is called an Altered dominant and is standard in a minor ii-V-i.[/b]

A bit fuzzy here. Why wouldn't a B9 chord work here? I'm unclear as to why C is brought into this.

So in the end, a minor ii-V-i in Em is
F#m7b5 (Half Diminished) B7b9 (Altered Dominant) Em7 (Minor Seventh).[/b]

All good except the altered dominant concept but that's o.k. for now.

In Autumn Leaves, we can emphasize the presence of the minor ii-V-I vs. the major ii-V-I because the original composer, by calling it a B7 instead of Bm7, is telling us an intent. This has a big effect because in jazz, the scale played on each chord will be different once you get to a minor ii-V-i. These allow you to add color in note selection. In other words, it will justify us to use notes that are NOT in the 'G' scale.

In fact, the composer already uses this principle because the melody notes on the B7 use the Db and the Eb which are not in the G scale. How did the composer justify this? These notes are valid notes for altered dominant (B7b9)![/b]

So from the melody, the Eb is the third of B which works because the minor was removed. The Db and its relation to the B7b9 chord still elluds me!

I hope I didn't jump things too far ahead. I'm going to try and pick up this thread closer to the current topic.

Originally posted by jazzwee:


Elssa's post (way back there somewhere) with a link, discusses this ingenious manuever of turning the Bm7 into B7 and changed the color of the tune completely.[/b]

I missed this link earlier but now that I've viewed it, much more of this makes sense!

We've only hit maybe 2% of Autumn Leaves if you can believe it. [/b]

Oh I believe it!

Originally posted by chrisbell:
so let me jump here and write a little about swinging....[/b]

Originally posted by Serge88:
http://www.box.net/shared/1fg4enxk48

I did a lead sheet of Autumn leaves if anyone need it. Let me know of any mistake.


Serge [/b]

Originally posted by deeluk:
I've been practicing swing feel for about an hour here without much luck. Just using scales. I created a computer generated track of the G scale and then edited it up so that the accents were on the offbeats and used "Play FX" to give the timing a swing feel. I then used that as a reference for what I was trying to achieve.

I never really got there. I can sort of accent the upbeats, but my timing is usually off. I seem to have this really strong innate tendency to accent the downbeats. I'd start the first half of the scale pretty well, but then on the way down, I'd revert back to accenting the downbeats. Looking at recordings of myself (the data) the accents are pretty good sometimes up and down, but my timing drifts. If I turn on a metronome, I almost always revert back to accenting the downbeats.

I have been practicing a straight half note LH of Autumn Leaves along with a swing-feel RH. That seems to be going better than my practice. It's going to be a tough uphill battle for me I guess. [/b]

Originally posted by bluekeys:
Here's a new clean, computer-created midi that starts to bring in some swing elements. The bass hits eights on 1 and the + of 2 (don't I sound hip with the lingo?) and the melody does a little anticipation and hanging. It's still very mechanical, though. All notes are at the same volume and there's no variation in note lengths. Also the smallest note or rest used is an eighth.

Here's the straight midi:

http://www.box.net/shared/vg24meqgw8

And here it is rendered as an MP3 through a pretty decent piano VST with a teeny bit of reverb.

http://www.box.net/shared/s2getxxooc

I have to concentrate on a classical piece for a few days (so I don't thoroughly humiliate myself at my next lesson) but anyone who's into MIDI is welcome to jazz it up some more or try some new bass patterns. [/b]

Originally posted by Serge88:
http://www.box.net/shared/1fg4enxk48

I did a lead sheet of Autumn leaves if anyone need it. Let me know of any mistake.


Serge [/b]

jazzwee said:

This shows where the human feel is so important.

Originally posted by Jeff Bauer:
Great topic Jazzwee. I have been following it with interest.

Would anyone here benefit from a downloadable MP3 of a back track without the piano part to play along with? I created a latin style version with acoustic guitar, percussion, and bass - it's a MIDI file, however I can convert it to MP3 with ease. It's arranged a little different, but nothing too difficult. [/b]