Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.

This is an excellent demonstration David. Listeners, don't forget to listen all the way through it too observe the various divisions of eight notes from asymmetrical to symmetrical.

My teacher's personal way of playing is close to the even eights that you demonstrate.

In real life playing though, no one can maintain a fixed style so you see a roaming through a range of symmetries with each player having a leaning towards a particular swing style. And that's what gives it life.

These MIDI files makes it clear what we're talking about. All of these have upbeat accents, which is the key consistent factor.

I'm trying not to introduce new topics that don't follow our lesson format. I'm just answering what I get asked. But at this point in time, if I answer a theory discussion and I don't put a Lesson title on top, then you can pretty much ignore that for now.

You can stick to lesson items (which I mark in bold at the top).

Please don't feel obligated to read advanced discussions of theory. If it were important, I would label the top.

We could handle general advanced theory discussions on the other jazz thread for separation.

In reality we have been focused on the swing analysis for a few days to make sure that we understood each other here. We talked about LH and RH but we haven't really added much to the lessons.

EDIT: I've gone back to the complex posts and labeled them:
ADVANCED TOPIC - IGNORE

So when you see this, it's not relevant to the lessons at the moment.

This is excellent Chris! I think this shows pretty well what we're trying to do. Chris' LH is different from my Charleston only on the Long second note. The timing is the same. (and it shows that my version needed a metronome )

Just a side comment from something that just came to my head. This thread is very unusual and is probably more educational than a typical jazz lesson with a teacher. First of all, if you took lessons once a week, you couldn't cover this much micro detail on the material. Plus we have the ability to interact so questions that come up don't have to wait a week to get resolved.

A common problem is to practice something incorrectly for a week or two and come to the lesson realizing that you've got it all wrong. Here you get instant response! Also these discussions exceed hour lessons and there's a lot of detail in them that you can go back and forth.

I don't believe I've ever seen this kind of Jazz discussion EVER on the internet.

What you guys don't even realize is that there are side discussions between me and some pros and that can get interesting too

I vote that we keep the thread together too. No matter how confusing it gets. I'm obviously at a very early level here, but I think being exposed to the higher level discussions will sink in and help at some point. Having to keep up with 3 separate threads would make things worse IMO.

I've been doing this occasionally with my keyboard generating backing drums and bass. That got me to wondering. Is this a good, bad or indifferent practice? I feel like I lean on the backing rhythm when I do this. It feels like my timing markedly improves when I practice this way. Thus I'm not really developing my own internal rhythm. I guess the obvious answer is that I need to do both (solo and with backing/metronome). Just wondering what others' feelings on this are.

I love to practice with the Real Book songs ( I also create my own examples) in BIAB (band in a box) I mute all chord instruments, keep drums and bass and play.
I use it like a glorious metronome. (if I'm in geek mode I'll generate a song and then export as midi so that I can import them and use better sounding instruments).

Also for learning tunes, in different keys at different tempi (and different styles/meters).

Wow, as one who only played or listened to classical music, I am learning so much, thanks to Jazzwee, and the others who have contributed so much to those thread.

Prior to my joining you I thought all non-classical music was the same. Now I have learned that there are so many different styles--swing, real jazz, ballad style, coctail lounge style etc. What an wealth of information you all are sharing.

I have a long way to go before I will be able to even approach what you all are doing. Mostly I am just playing block chords, root position in the left hand, just to learn to play them without having the written notes before me. I am amazed at how dependent I am upon visual cues. Now, I am trying to rely on my ear to tell me what to do.

I am just taking it all one step at a time--else I begin to feel overwhelmed. Unless I am wrong, aside from the more extensive use of seventh chords, and altered chords, jazz follows pretty much the same rules as classical music does with regard to the progressions.

It is getting the rhythm down that for me is the hardest now, as I have not listened to much jazz.

Jazzwee, thanks thanks thanks. You are a wonderful teacher and so very generous and patient with those of us who came to this forum without a clue as to what jazz style is. Gaby Tu

Yes it is a lot of fun. Much more so than just a metronome. And, if you've never had exposure to playing with a group (like me), it is a reasonable simulation. For me, when I start improvising, I often get lost as far as the form goes. By building a backing "band", this becomes immediately apparent and I think helps train me as to proper form. I'm not really familiar with Band In a Box, but my keyboard has a similar function. It's a snap to generate a song and then mute one or more of the tracks and play along with it. I just wonder what happens when you take that away and start playing solo again. Does it all fall apart? Rhythm-wise specifically.

This is my attempt at a Charleston LH + non-swing quarter note RH exercise. I practiced a lot counting 1+2+3+4+ then stopped and tried to 'feel' the LH.

www.sailwave.com/piano/al3.mp3

Listening to it I realise now that the RH is late when there is no LH...

LaValse, well done! I liked that a lot.

I can see, I need to practice harder, to try & catch up.

David

Hi guys,

Played tonight Autumn leaves and recorded it as midi-file - MP3 is not available - and I played with the whole intro Is it jazz, classical....? I think it's me.
(You can import the midifile to every Yamaha DP, so you can hear the real sound)

Autumn leaves (midi)

It is fun to play this song. Maybe next weekend I record a mp-3 of it for ABF. Midi is only midi, you know......

Best regards.

Johan B

You're making some serious headway here LaValse. Now since you are playing this using quarter notes on the melody, let's modify your swing a little bit. Play the quarter notes short, meaning there should be a audible rest between the 3 quarter notes at the beginning of the melody then you follow it with that whole note that has no rest.

So again: Quarter notes are played detached (non-legato). This swings it because typically the rest is a sixteenth, which is the second swing note in an eight pair. I wanted to emphasize this point as most of the swing discussions was on eight notes. This is all we do with quarter notes.

Thanks for sharing Johan. Now read up and participate and we'll turn it into jazz.

Gaby Tu, thanks for the nice comments. Just realize that I'm just a facilitator. I'm just an amateur like everyone else here. I'm learning just as much as the rest of you. In order to explain some of this requires me to clean up my own act and it's very fruitful for me. We'll all grow in this together.

Looking back at my own study of Jazz, I did not spend enough time with playing with a rhythm section so this is a weak point for me.

Recently I've refocused on practicing with "Aebersold Play Alongs". It's been very helpful because the players are real and masterful jazz players and in real playing, everything from time, to the way the Bass and Drums play communicate something to the player. For example, the Rhythm section, by the way they play, guides to upcoming changes (like the end of the solo section, or the upcoming bridge, etc.). In a fixed Rhythm provided by a keyboard, you don't feel this and it is still like playing alone.

So it is highly recommended and is part of jazz development. It can be practiced more heavily as you get more advanced though so it isn't necessary for the earliest stages of learning.

Hi jazzwee, thanks for listening. I have been wondering about quarter notes and swing - I will practice them detached... What a nice way to spend a Sunday afternoon...

Edit: Ah, reading back through the thread - you've mentioned it already - I must have missed it.

David - thanks - it was fun.

Since the consensus is to not split the current thread into separate lessons -one other thought occurred to me about how this is organized. As jazzwee has said, this is a truly unique teaching circle, thanks to him (her?) --

Since it is so unique and so valuable, what about having 2 parallel threads?

1. One which is moderated by jazzwee, and probably mostly contributed to by jazzwee, that has the lessons

and

2. One which has the discussion about the lessons?

*********************

Right now, we are up to 12 pages of a mixed bag of #1 and #2.

For posterity, for those who look up this thread later - wouldn't it make sense to have a concise place to go with the lessons, and then if one wants to learn more about the whys and wherefores, a separate thread which is indexed (referenced) to the "lesson" thread?

Just a thought. Won't hurt my feelings no matter what you decide to do, and will continue to follow with interest (and hope for my future jazz-playing ability).

Steve W, it might be hard to make references in discussions (like quoting). Also, one of the threads might fall off the list if one thread is busier. Also, we won't be successful at stopping anyone from posting anywhere. So we'll have two mismatching threads.

I just recommend that people print out or save the actual lessons.

As we go along here we'll do a better job at indexing on the first page. That'll handle the issues of being confusing IMHO.

The Chopin Thread is like 3100+ posts. We're a baby thread in comparison. Although I realize that many our posts are rather deep so it takes some frequent re-reading

OMG!!!

I'm away for a couple of weeks and we are on page 12 already!!!

Blimey, I've got a lot to catch up on here!!


thanks guys


Lee