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#1010440 - 01/11/08 06:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Mike A Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 521
Loc: So.Cal.USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mike A:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
... the 7 always has a special function of 'voice leading' to the next chord in a circle of fifths.

Edit: Note too that the voice leading is heavily used in Walking Bass on beat 4. In theory, if it comes from above then it would be the 7th of the chord but not if it comes from below. [/b]
Sounds like you're also using a definition of voice leading other than the conventional one. [/b]
Hi Mika A, I'm not aware of an alternative description. Particularly when we get to rootless voicings in jazz, the term 'voicing leading' is bandied around regularly. [/b]
Might be worth a little woodshedding ... "voice leading" and "leading tones."

Anyway, enough from me. Signing off.

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#1010441 - 01/11/08 07:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
I'd like to woodshed it if there's an issue but I'm still not clear on the problem.

Wikipedia:

LEADING TONE

In music theory, a leading-tone (called the leading-note outside the US) is a note or pitch which resolves or "leads" to a note one semitone higher or lower, being a lower and upper leading-tone, respectively.

Generally, the leading tone is the seventh tonal degree of the diatonic scale leading up to the tonic

VOICE LEADING

In music, voice leading is the relationship between the successive pitches of simultaneous moving parts or voices. For example, when moving from a root position C triad or chord played C–E–G to a 6/4 chord over the same bass (C–F–A), one might say that the middle "voice" rises from E to F while the top "voice" rises from G to A, this being a way to "lead" those voices. Instead of considering the two successive chords vertically as separate, one focuses primarily on the "horizontal" (temporal or linear) continuity between notes, though the concept applies to homophonic as well as polyphonic musics. When focusing on horizontal continuity, parallel motion between octaves, fifths, or unison is not allowed. However, popular and jazz music, which focuses more on vertical progression commonly uses parallel octaves. Concern for voice-leading often means a predominance of stepwise motion and may assist or replace diatonic functionality.

----------------
EDIT[/b]: Mike A, I'm apparently using this informally, not following the terminology in Classical Music Theory, which I wasn't actually referring to (vii degree). I was just using 'leading' as an adjective, which was the 1st description in Wiki. I don't want to suggest the proper noun "Leading Tone". To avoid confusion, let me just use an alternate terminology of 'approach note' for the Bass line and for the 7th 'leading' to 3rd, I'll refer to that as 7th resolving to the 3rd.

I hope that this will satisfy the 'Theory Police' \:D \:D
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#1010442 - 01/11/08 08:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
ChatNoir Offline
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Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1479
Loc: Encino, California
Ok, all you experts. How many of you know the VERSE to this lovely song? Les Feuilles Mortes:

Oh ! je voudrais tant que tu te souviennes Des jours heureux quand nous étions amis. En ce temps-là la vie était plus belle, Et le soleil plus brûlant qu'aujourd'hui...............

This is the song I regale audiences with when I take over the piano bar anywhere. And believe me, when you do it in French, nobody cares whether you know how to play or not.
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#1010443 - 01/12/08 01:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
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Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-lTaSozn5RI

Hi, I just recorded Autumn leaves with video and I uploaded on youtube. I used a accompaniement of bass and drum. I added a little extra, when I play Em7 I follow with Em6, it sounds nice.

Serge
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#1010444 - 01/12/08 02:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
You've been working hard Serge! Congratulations on a perfect execution. Is this your recital piece now \:\)

Some advice to bring some swing in.... To start with, play your quarter notes short. Only the quarter notes. This will have an immediate effect. Then later listen to variations of the melody made by Jeff Bauer and myself and see where you might change a quarter note to an eight note. Jeff and I both made the 1st note an eight note.

You're making solid progress Serge. We're all proud of you.
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#1010445 - 01/12/08 05:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1915
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
Ok, all you experts. How many of you know the VERSE to this lovely song? Les Feuilles Mortes:[/b]
Yeah but we're not playing Les Feuilles Mortes, this group is about Autumn Leaves. ;\)
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#1010446 - 01/12/08 10:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
bluekeys Offline
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 1337
Very nice Serge. The Em6 works well with the style you're doing. I also like your timing in the section where the chords change within the measures. That always gives me trouble, especially now that I'm trying to improv over it.

On the topic of Les Feuilles Mortes, I dunno. The Dead Leaves sort of kills the mood for me. I like the English translation. \:\)

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#1010447 - 01/12/08 05:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1580
Loc: NY
Well, I've been working on that walking bass two days straight now..hope I hit all the leading tones (or most of them at least). \:D

http://www.box.net/shared/di0vcj1cgc

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#1010448 - 01/12/08 09:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
Good job, Elssa. You can detach those quarter notes a little in the melody so they bounce a little more jazzily, continue to slur and accent your pickup eighth note in the melody.
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#1010449 - 01/13/08 12:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1580
Loc: NY
 Quote:
You can detach those quarter notes a little
Thank you very much rintincop for your nice comments..Yes, I can see now how the quarter notes would sound better more bouncy/crispy (as opposed to fuzzy) especially in this jazz arrangement. I will try that out along with your other good suggestions. \:\)

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#1010450 - 01/13/08 12:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
RH Phrasing in Jazz[/b]

I think that the issue of how to phrase is common to everyone now so let's emphasize the points once again.

Part of the purpose of swing is to remove the stiffness in the sound and relax the feel. So this can be used to varying degrees even in a non-jazz tune so these suggestions apply even when playing slow.

1. Eighth Notes are Legato/Slurred. Accent on Upbeats. Except for the last eighth note followed by a rest. This is played short.

2. Quarter notes are played short, or detached. Basically if there's a series of quarter notes, there should be a short rest in between each one. Bouncy Feel is exactly what I would use to describe it.

3. Half and Whole notes are played at full value with no alteration.

4. Sixteenth notes are not swung. They are played evenly and with no accent (at Medium swing tempo).

So as you can see, you really have to only look at Eighth Notes and Quarter Notes and phrasing them. When reading a leadsheet, these are assumed in Jazz and not written into the music. Even when using Serge's leadsheet, you can almost pre-write these rules on it. I did at the beginning of my studies. I marked which ones I should play short or slurred.


LH Phrasing[/b]

When playing quarter bass notes on the LH, these are always slurred/legato. No swing applied. Accent beat 2 and 4. The reason for this is that you are emulating the bass player.
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#1010451 - 01/13/08 12:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
.
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#1010452 - 01/13/08 01:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
bluekeys Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 1337
Elssa, That was great! I'm completely blown away by how fast the people on this forum are progressing. While I enjoyed your earlier "cocktail" version, this new one has a crisper, professional sound that I think is much more appealing. Thanks for posting. You're setting a good example for where I hope to be in, oh, five or ten years! \:\)

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#1010453 - 01/13/08 01:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by rintincop:
"You do not accent 2 and 4 in walking jazz bass, although some people mistakenly think you do in order to get the "groove" going....the drummer does the 2 and 4 accent and the bass player has to have his great time sense really correct and play slightly on top of the beat (not rushing, but on the upside of the beat, rather than dead in the middle for playing jazz -- we used to call it the "Ray Brown Edge"...Ray is right, that's where you play and he does NOT accent 2 and 4 at all."

Carol Kaye

However, jazz pianist Dave McKenna does frequently accent the 2 and the 4 in his walking bass, sometimes just the 2. And in some measures he doesn't accent any of the bass notes. I guess he varies it depending on how hard he wants to groove. It's "groovy" to accent 2 or 4 occasionally but it's not necessary to constantly accent 2 and 4. [/b]
I agree with you Ritincop. I don't always accent 2 and 4, although I was specifically taught to do that. I think good taste would dictate when it applies.

We haven't discussed Latin/Bossa here even which is not accented at all.
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#1010454 - 01/13/08 01:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Elssa:
Well, I've been working on that walking bass two days straight now..hope I hit all the leading tones (or most of them at least). \:D

http://www.box.net/shared/di0vcj1cgc [/b]
Very nice Elssa, with a little bit of improvisation even!

Some things to watch, in addition to what Ritincop said. I liked your walking bass. The note selection was perfect. Now if you listen to it as you changed chords, the walking bass did not slur to the next chord. Be careful with that. I think the reason for that is probably a fingering issue. Think carefully about how you're going to finger the bass lines to connect from chord to chord.

I'm going to add some more to these comments in a moment as I listen to your melody more. You're more advanced so we can probably set a higher standard for you to reach. \:D

EDIT - I think Ritincop was right on. The significant issue is the quarter note and accenting the 1st eighth note. I would mark up on the music how you phrase the melody (since most of us don't follow the music exactly), but specifically check the phrasing rules to see if you're using eighth notes and where it lands on the beat, as well as when to detach the quarter notes.

In my early jazz studies, I would be given sheet music of jazz lines and I had to interpret the phrasing which is never written in. It has to come automatically. Now I don't even think of these issues as it's ingrained in me.
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#1010455 - 01/13/08 01:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by bluekeys:
Elssa, That was great! I'm completely blown away by how fast the people on this forum are progressing. While I enjoyed your earlier "cocktail" version, this new one has a crisper, professional sound that I think is much more appealing. Thanks for posting. You're setting a good example for where I hope to be in, oh, five or ten years! \:\) [/b]
This is a piece of cake for you bluekeys. This is within short term reach.
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#1010456 - 01/13/08 01:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Serge88:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-lTaSozn5RI

Hi, I just recorded Autumn leaves with video and I uploaded on youtube. I used a accompaniement of bass and drum. I added a little extra, when I play Em7 I follow with Em6, it sounds nice.

Serge [/b]
I was wondering, Serge, how did you figure out that you could substitute and Em6 in there? Was that just trial and error? That is actually quite a valid substution when the Em7 is a tonic chord, which it is in this instance.

When we get to an advanced level on this tune much later on, it would be fun to play with various substitutions on Autumn Leaves. I normally do a lot of substutitions when I play this myself.
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#1010457 - 01/13/08 06:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Kangamangusuk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 18
Loc: East Yorkshire
Ellsa, bravo! What an inspiration to us all.

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#1010458 - 01/13/08 10:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Steve W Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 249
Loc: Omaha, NE
Here's a basic question:

Is there a convention in jazz lingo to refer to eighth notes as "eight" notes? It looks like sixteenth notes are referred to by that name - is there a rationale for the eighth/eight switcheroo?
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#1010459 - 01/13/08 11:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve W:
Here's a basic question:

Is there a convention in jazz lingo to refer to eighth notes as "eight" notes? It looks like sixteenth notes are referred to by that name - is there a rationale for the eighth/eight switcheroo? [/b]
Yes, there's just a convention for bad English \:D Thanks for catching. I was getting dyslexic looking at them probably. ;\)
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#1010460 - 01/13/08 04:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Jazzwee:

Fantastic Thread!!! I logged onto the forums for the first time yesterday so I got a late start. I hope you don't mind if I back you up a bit. I'm on the second lesson (playing the 3rds) and I have a bit of a problem with playing the melody while hitting the 1/7/3. Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to drop down an octive?
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#1010461 - 01/13/08 05:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Hi Woody, the 3rd playing is not with the melody. That's instead of the melody and is a practice to get used to doing a solo.

For melody playing, just use 1/7. And also in a later lesson, you can insert the 5 as in 1/5/7.

What you are referring to as 1/7/3 is playing in tenths which I discussed later (1/10) and is difficult to do unless you have ultra-large hands. I would save that for later when you've mastered everything else.

Have fun!
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#1010462 - 01/13/08 05:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
I was wondering, Serge, how did you figure out that you could substitute and Em6 in there? Was that just trial and error? That is actually quite a valid substution when the Em7 is a tonic chord, which it is in this instance.

When we get to an advanced level on this tune much later on, it would be fun to play with various substitutions on Autumn Leaves. I normally do a lot of substutitions when I play this myself. [/b]
I found a version where at the last two bar it's Em7 follow by Em6. I tried that on the left hand (going from 1/7 to 1/6 was easy), it was nice so I decided to change every Em7 chord by Em7 on beat 1 and Em6 on beat 3.

Serge
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#1010463 - 01/13/08 05:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
It always works to turn a Im7 into a Im6 if the progression is IIm7b5-V7b9-Im7. Just note that it doesn't work on a minor functioning as a ii chord (like Am7 in AL), or iii chord.

You're pretty sharp to notice this. You can also play Em6 completely and skip the Em7.
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#1010464 - 01/13/08 05:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Hi Woody, the 3rd playing is not with the melody. That's instead of the melody and is a practice to get used to doing a solo.

Have fun! [/b]
Really ??? I thought we were supposed to practice 1/7 left hand and 3rd + the melody with the right hand.

Why did you choose Autumn leaves if we don't play the melody ?

Serge
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#1010465 - 01/13/08 05:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
The standard thing I was teaching was to play 1/7 in LH and Melody in the RH. That's the starting point. As I said at the beginning, if you took a fresh song out of a leadsheet like 'As Time Goes By' or 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow' or 'Misty', this approach is used to get a good understanding of the tune. It is something I myself do all the time.

Now beyond that is now to thicken the harmony and inner voices so later on in the lessons, we discussed using 1/7 or 1/3, and even later than that we discussed 1/5/7.

As a separate discussion I discussed practicing doing a 3rd on the RH as a solo exercise. Not connected to the melody.

Sometimes the 3rd is the melody. Sometimes the 3rd is in the way or above the melody so you can't always play it on the RH (in which case you play it on the LH and the 7th is played on the RH instead). If you can play the 3rd while the melody is higher up it's a good thing because we'll be talking about that later. However, I wasn't specifically asking everyone to do this since it doesn't always work.

I'm trying to introduce everyone to the improvisation side and thus I was giving everyone the exercise of listening to the 3rd on the RH. And that can become a 'home base' sound for a solo.

Jazz is played as:
1. Head (Melody)
2. Solo
3. Repeat Head.
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#1010466 - 01/13/08 06:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Serge, I still need to do a separate lesson discussing additional inner voices on RH and LH, both when playing the melody and just comping.

I haven't explained that yet because I wanted to make sure everyone knew what the extension references were (9,11,13, etc.) which I did a few days ago.
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#1010467 - 01/13/08 06:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
Ok thanks,

by the way I ordered P.Degreg Keyboard Jazz harmony. It looks like a good book on voicing and practicing jazz chords.

Serge
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-Keith Richards


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#1010468 - 01/13/08 07:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Excellent Serge. Do you have the book 'Metaphors for the Musician'? I recommend that too. Especially useful is the solo piano/comping discussion which is clearly stated.
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#1010469 - 01/13/08 07:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1580
Loc: NY
Especially useful is the solo piano/comping discussion which is clearly stated.[/b]

Thanks again all. \:\) This is such a great site/thread for learning and inspiration! \:\) My main bugaboo now is still the soloing, but I'm going to check out everything listed on that here again and I'm sure eventually I'll "get it" (might take a while though). \:D

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