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#1010470 - 01/13/08 11:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Excellent Serge. Do you have the book 'Metaphors for the Musician'? I recommend that too. Especially useful is the solo piano/comping discussion which is clearly stated. [/b]
No but I'll write that on my list.

Serge
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#1010471 - 01/14/08 12:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
.
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#1010472 - 01/14/08 05:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Jazzwee,

Thanks, the lightbulb finally clicked on for me!! In your lesson, you never did say to put the melody with the thirds I just wasn't paying attention. Your building off the 1/7 so that it creates another layer of sound independant of the melody.
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#1010473 - 01/14/08 09:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
westarm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 63
Loc: Indiana, USA
a quick question on terminology if i may.

this chord in AL: F#m7b5

can it also be designated as an Fdim7?

thanks.
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#1010474 - 01/14/08 09:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1915
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by westarm:
this chord in AL: F#m7b5

can it also be designated as an Fdim7? [/b]
No. F#m7b5 may be called F# "half-dim" 7.

F#m7b5 is: F# A C E
Fdim7 is: F Ab B D

(I used enharmonic spelling here.)
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#1010475 - 01/14/08 10:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
westarm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 63
Loc: Indiana, USA
mahlzeit, i noticed i made a typing error...i had meant to ask if F#m7b5 was F#dim7, not Fdim7, but you caught that.

thanks for replying and i will do my homework to figure out why it is half-dim. (kinda like my brain.... \:\) )
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#1010476 - 01/14/08 02:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
So - is a "half-dim" chord one with a major third stacked on three minor thirds? This would produce only one tritone, the root plus it's flatted 5th, whereas a normal diminished 7th has two tritones? Hence the name half-dim?

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#1010477 - 01/14/08 02:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1915
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
So - is a "half-dim" chord one with a major third stacked on three minor thirds?[/b]
Yes. It's a dim7 chord with the 7th lowered one additional half-step. Or you can view it as a minor-7 chord with the 5th lowered, hence the notation m7b5.

EDIT: Ha, of course I meant a dim7 chord with the 7th RAISED one additional half-step.

Cdim7: C Eb Gb Bbb
Cm7b5: C Eb Gb Bb

Spot the difference. \:\)
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#1010478 - 01/14/08 10:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Lesson 6
Solo Piano 2 + 3 Voicings

This is now a lesson to make the chords sound fuller, in solo piano style. You can play like this in a ballad form, or you can 'comp' these chords to a soloist. You can switch from playing these two handed chords and then playing the melody on the RH, or you can skip the highest note in the voicing and play the melody on the pinky.

The key to these voicings is to understand the specific intervals of each chord. I will list the chords and the specific notes fall under certain intervals which concern us. Use this for later reference.

Am7
Root = A
b7 = G
b3 = C
5 = E
9 = B

D7
Root = D
3 = F#

GMaj7
Root = G
7 = F#
3 = B
5 = D
9 = A

CMaj7
Root = C
3 = E

F#m7b5
Root = F#
b7 = E
b3 = A
b5 = C
9 = G#

B7b9
Root = B
b7 = C
b13 = G

Em7
Root = E
b7 = D
b3 = G
5 = B
9 = F#


The key to this 2 + 3 kind of voicing is to start the use of "extensions" to chords which start to give it a jazzy sound. Also, to make use of voice leading which also results in less hand movement. Again this is for comping or ballad playing. It is not used for soloing since in a solo, the LH needs to stay away from the RH.

In principle, the idea is that in ii-V progressions, only the LH moves. The RH stays put. The I chord is just a whole step move down of the entire RH.

In a minor ii-V, the RH moves only the last note and mostly the LH moves.

Here are the voicing examples below:

ii Chord (Am7)
LH 1 b7 RH b3 5 9
LH A G RH C E B

V chord (D7)
LH 1 3 RH does not move from above position.
(So the RH will actually be on the b7 9 13 of the new chord.)
LH D F# RH C E B

I chord (GMaj7)
LH 1 7 RH 3 5 9
LH G F# RH B D A

IV chord (CMaj7)
LH 1 3 RH 7 9 6
LH C E RH B D A

ii Chord (F#m7b5)
LH 1 7 RH b3 b5 9
LH F# E RH A C G#

V Chord (B7b9)
LH 1 3 RH same as above except move highest note down a half step to G.
LH B Eb RH A C G

i Chord (Em7)
LH 1 7 RH b3 5 9
LH E D RH G B F#

The key to generally applying this is to understand each interval of a chord.
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#1010479 - 01/14/08 11:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Look carefully the above lesson. This is a specific voicing lesson in solo piano that takes advantage of voice leading. This allows us to play a full voicing with less hand movement.

Actually play the example, especially a ii-V sequence and your eyes will widen with the discovery just like I did when I as taught this.

This is not from a book.

Add the Melody[/b]

Now how does one apply these voicings to playing Autumn Leaves with melody in the RH?

Just like most tunes, the above voicing cannot be played as shown when you are playing the melody on the RH.

The rule is: THE MELODY MUST BE THE TOP NOTE.

When playing with a full harmony like this, the melody is often played by fingers 4 and 5.

So the above voicings can be used when there is a hole in the melody (the voicing can be filler comping), or you have to modify the voicing to eliminate the duplicates to the melody note.

Sometimes a particular melody note is too low in the keyboard. In which case, think about adding an extra inner voice on the LH instead of the RH. In other words you may need to play a 3 + 1 voicing instead of a 2 + 2, or 2 + 3 (note that this translates to 'LH notes' + 'RH notes', so 2 + 2 means each hand plays 2 notes of the harmony).

In general, in a 1/7 voicing you can safely add the 5th of the chord. A 3rd cannot be added when on roots below middle C as the voicing will sound muddy.

There are instances when you are playing the melody on the RH that you want all the chord tones to be on on the LH. This is where you can do a 3 + Melody voicing. No chord tones on the RH. In solo piano style, the 3 notes will typically be 1/5/7, 1/3/5, or 1/3/7 depending on the register. I do this quite frequently and often I focus on adding an occasional 9 to the RH. The advantage of this form is that the RH is free to improvise and you have more finger freedom (instead of being limited to fingers 4 and 5).

Given a choice, I believe that additional chord tones are best played above the 7th in the 1/7 voicings but this is not always possible.

These are solo piano voicings. Later on we will be discussing 'Rootless voicings' for combo style playing and occasionally for solo piano playing as well.
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#1010480 - 01/14/08 11:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Re: Confusion about 3rds on the RH/Also about Solos[/b]
In response to Woody's and Serge's post above, I hope the above lesson clarifies my intention on the 3rds on the RH. It is not my original plan to require that one play 3rds with the melody note since, as you can see the extra harmony notes to be played can vary from 3,5,7,9.

For those of you attempting to solo, I hope you are in fact practicing to play a single solo note on each chord and I hope that note is a 3rd \:\) . Then maybe you can progress to sounding two notes on each chord, again one of them being a 3rd. And then later, perhaps playing 4 notes per chord with one of them being a 3rd.

Now once the harmony is ingrained in your brain (this takes awhile, maybe a few weeks), you can FORGET I ever mentioned playing a 3rd in the RH in a solo. Play whatever you want.

I guarantee that if every beginning soloist included a 3rd in their beginning solos, and just play a few notes at a time with lots of rests, the solo will sound coherent.
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#1010481 - 01/15/08 01:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Just catching up here after a few days of distractions. So, I've been trying to work in solo practice to my routine. Noodling.

The hint of focusing on the 3rd has really added something to my improv that was sorely lacking. Not that it has improved all that much, but a definite difference. When I start trying to improvise, the LH kinda falls apart. Forgets where it's supposed to be going. I have to constantly remind it, "hey, you're supposed to be changing chords over there." It's getting better though. The AL changes are so ingrained at this point that its almost autopilot.

One thing though, the B7b9 chord. I tend to run into a lot of dissonance there for some reason. I've started trying to stay diatonic at this point instead of heading for the 3rd (D#) or trying to play "vertically". Am I doing something wrong?

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#1010482 - 01/15/08 01:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Hi Deeluk, since you already know that D# is a valid note in the chord and in fact minor ii-V-I's have to be played vertically for the most part, I would just go for it and forget the artificial diatonic limitation. Otherwise, you'll have to demphasize the notes that are dissonant to you (e.g. Bb, D, E).

For now, when in doubt, favor the chord tones (1,3,5,7 of the chord).

Since your question is now getting more sophisticated, perhaps it is soon time to have a lesson on scales for soloing.
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#1010483 - 01/15/08 10:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Kangamangusuk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 18
Loc: East Yorkshire
Jazzwee, need more guidance on lesson 6 (2+3 voicing)with regards F#m7b5 & B7b9 sequence please.

Firstly, I would have expected RH to be A (b3), C (b5) G# (9) for F#m7b5 & perhaps the same notes for B7b9, in this case being the (b7), (b9) & (13).

Why was the b13 & not the 13th introduced for B7b9?

I'm simply trying to learn, where I have gone wrong in my understanding & scale interval calculations!

Thanks for all your efforts.

David

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#1010484 - 01/15/08 12:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Kangamangusuk, it's a typo. You are correct. Thanks.
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#1010485 - 01/15/08 12:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kangamangusuk:

Why was the b13 & not the 13th introduced for B7b9?
[/b]
This is a good question. In this particular voicing, when a dominant 7 has b9,#9, and b13, it's been converted to an ALT. So this voicing is actually playing B7 Alt by moving G# down to G, which actually keeps us more diatonic to the G scale for B7b9.

I find that sometimes that that same G (b9 of F#m7b5), may also fit with the melody of some tunes and there's a lot of debate about what sounds good with this chord, a b9 or a 9 (there's a section on Mark Levine's book with this same discussion).

My teacher taught me to do it this way. So who am I to argue \:D
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#1010486 - 01/15/08 01:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Jazzwee,
I'm still working on Lesson #2 but I have been staying up with the actual thread itself. I've breezed through (and back-burnered) Lessons #3, #4 & #5 thinking they were for rounding everything out later. I did, however, understood what you were explaining. Lesson #6 is a different story completely. I hope I'm lost because of something I didn't pick up on completely in the previous lessons. I'm ok with the progressions (as a back-up not solo) through the CMaj7 chord. Why a 6th with it followed by a 9th with the F#m7b5? Did I miss some logic?
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#1010487 - 01/15/08 01:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Woody, the F#m7b5 (after correcting the typo), should be the b3, the b5 (not 6), and the 9.

Maybe I'm not understanding your question so ask again if this doesn't answer it.
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#1010488 - 01/15/08 01:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Kangamangusuk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 18
Loc: East Yorkshire
Thanks Jazzwee for your answers. Actually, I like the sound of the b13 in this progression.

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#1010489 - 01/15/08 02:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Jazzwee,
I should have said up to the CMaj7 Chord. Sorry for the confusion. My misunderstanding is where an A (6th) is used as the top note when a G (5th) or B (7th) could have been used. The Melody is carriing a B at this time. I also have the same misunderstanding with the G# (9th) as the top note for the following F#m7b5 chord when the melody has an A. The 7# (8th whole) would be much sweeter to my ears. IF we are running these chords for back-up should they blend?
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#1010490 - 01/15/08 04:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
OK. I get your question. When the GMaj7 is turned into CMaj7, the A (13 or 6) is the upper voicing, and is this good or bad.

The answer is that it is VERY GOOD. And 13 on major chords is a regular voicing choice in jazz.

I haven't explained the voicing choices yet. For each chord quality there are voicing choices in jazz that are pretty well accepted and you can blame jazz pianist Bill Evans for coming up with a lot of them.

In almost all chords, the 9 is added. It is not added to Diminished chords, but it is to Half dimninished chords.

In major chords, you never add the 11 and you can add 9,13, #11.

In Dominant 7 chords, you can add ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but the kitchen sink. This is where you really learn about alterations and voicings.

In minor 7 chords (non-tonic) you can only add the 9. If it's a tonic minor you can add the 13 (6). You can also play the 11th instead of the 3rd for an ambiguous sound.

I'll be expanding on this later but this voicing lesson in Lesson 6 is the beginning of the Jazzy sound. It's what many of you have been waiting for. When we get to rootless voicings, it will be the jazziest (and to some, most dissonant \:D ).
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#1010491 - 01/15/08 10:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
Lesson 6 is very interesting, my brain understand it but not my hands. I'm still practicing Autumn leaves with simple voicing 2 + 1 + melody, I'm trying to add variation to the melody.

When I can play it in my sleep I will add more voicing.

Serge
_________________________

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-Keith Richards


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#1010492 - 01/16/08 01:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Very interesting comment Serge.

Let me just give some general advice to everyone with similar problems. In reality, it is easy to practice 3,5,9 voicing on the RH just by memorizing it in all 12 keys. The spans of intervals are consistent.

So, at my level, I don't even have to think about doing a 3,5,9 on the RH. I just reproduce the shape.

This the same reason we stuck to 1/7's on the LH a lot. 1/7 is easily practiced in all keys. When you know it once, you can apply it to any chord. The hand shape for 1/5/7 on the LH is also predictable.

So for those of you having problems with all these, I recommend daily practice of these intervals in LH and RH. It won't take long before it's natural. If you can do 2 + 3 voicings in your sleep, you can accompany a soloist with little advanced preparation and it sounds good with full voicing.

From the skills you learn in Autumn Leaves, you will have no problems playing a more complex tune like All the Things that You Are, for example. The methodology is exactly the same.
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#1010493 - 01/16/08 09:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
LaValse Offline
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Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 1224
Loc: Mumbles, Wales
I just love the sound of the F#m7b5-B7b9-Em7 sequence as 1,7/3 + 3,5,9 - it's so - jazzy \:\)
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#1010494 - 01/16/08 04:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
LaValse, you ain't seen nothin' yet \:D

Wait till you hear the rootless voicings, or substitutions. This is what jazz is about.

Have you ever listened to Bill Evans? He's the master of most of these voicings and it's now down to a science because of him.
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#1010495 - 01/16/08 04:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
KeyboardJungle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Maryland
"In Dominant 7 chords, you can add ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but the kitchen sink." - JazzWee

- Do you mean this literally, or diatonically?

"my brain understands it but not my hands" - Serge

- We must be twins!

"Let me just give some general advice to everyone with similar problems. In reality, it is easy to practice 3,5,9 voicing on the RH just by memorizing it in all 12 keys. The spans of intervals are consistent." - Jazzwee

Jazzwee - Thanks for pointing this out. I gave up out of frustration last night. I think that I was starting to "feel" it, but subconciously rejecting the idea because it seemed to simple. Like Serge said so well, my brain could analyze and understand, but I could't see how I was ever going to get it under my hand. Your last post gets the spotlight on my music stand tonight! Thanks.

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#1010496 - 01/16/08 05:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
"In Dominant 7 chords, you can add ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but the kitchen sink." - JazzWee

- Do you mean this literally, or diatonically?

[/b]
I mean this quite literally. This is really the crux of jazz voicings and really understanding what you can do. If you guys can last through the whole stretch of this, you will be amazed how different Autumn Leaves can sound harmonically speaking. I have to go through this slowly though as I don't want to overwhelm.
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#1010497 - 01/16/08 05:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeyboardJungle:
Jazzwee - Thanks for pointing this out. I gave up out of frustration last night. I think that I was starting to "feel" it, but subconciously rejecting the idea because it seemed to simple. Like Serge said so well, my brain could analyze and understand, but I could't see how I was ever going to get it under my hand. Your last post gets the spotlight on my music stand tonight! Thanks. [/b]
I'm hoping that everyone looks at Autumn Leaves as a general exercise. Everything we're doing is not specific to this tune. There are in fact some technical skills to develop for this automatic moves to become apparent. And they do take a little time so don't be discouraged.

This is one of the reasons I wanted everyone to stick to 1/7 shell voicings and not be focused on switching to 1/7,1/3 because you have to get used to the interval. It needs to be as automatic as an Octave.

Of course you all know there are two varieties of 1/7 that have to be practiced (1/7, 1/b7) just as there two sets of 3/5/9 to practice (b3,5,9 and 3,5,9 -- excluding half diminished).

If you get this down, you don't even realize what you can do. I've empowered all of you to go to the Real Book and play ANYTHING. This is the beginning of the release from the holds of sheet music. Combined with improvisation, that's music power, man.
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#1010498 - 01/16/08 05:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
LaValse Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 1224
Loc: Mumbles, Wales
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Have you ever listened to Bill Evans? He's the master of most of these voicings and it's now down to a science because of him. [/b]
As it happens, I've been listening to Conversations With Myself recently...
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#1010499 - 01/16/08 05:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Whew . . this thread is incredible! I've been stuck in gig-tour land and not been able to keep up with the posts. Listen all . . . Jazzwee has indeed empowered you all! I salute his sheer "let's get down to the bottom of it all".

For those of you coming from a classical background; all this is in Bach . . and quite a lot of Mozart too! Not to forget Chopin.

As for listening tips: Bill Evans absolutely, and I highly recommend The Keith Jarrett Standard Trio. There's tons off videos on YouTube (of both).
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Thoughts on Sound Imagination and Tone production
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