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#1010620 - 01/26/08 08:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
OK...a new day, another attempt.

Jazzwee, you are right that it is easier to do it at a faster tempo to get that swing feel.

The first one here is just RH swing scale with LH holding the whole measure:

http://www.box.net/shared/hh03b4a888

Right swing?

While concentrating on the longer beat of the first 8th note, it is hard to accent the "+" of every other beat.


Next is RH scales with LH Charleston:
http://www.box.net/shared/hrh1lyiecs

Is Charleston rhythm steady enough?

Rosa

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#1010621 - 01/26/08 11:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Rosa, you've got it licked!

You've been working hard! Now the rest will come over time and you need to shoot for rock solid time. That's all technique.

As you can see, even when someone already has good piano technique, building jazz rhythmic technique/swing is completely different.

Just so you understand the difference, I would play this myself with less focus on the first note being longer. Mine would be more even. But this is personal choice. Listen to some of the earlier swing discussion and videos and you will have a better sense of what was discussed because you now know the basics. I would actually tap the rhythm of their swing as you're watching videos/listening and you will discover what the masters are actually doing.
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#1010622 - 01/26/08 01:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
That was great, Rosa! Keep up the good work.

Now, an unanswered question that you, Rosa asked above. Here it is:

Q: When we hit that 2nd beat of LH Charleston, is it supposed to come down slightly after the swing of the 2+ of the RH or do they come down together at the same time?

I guess either jazzwee or Chris can answer it.

I am still fighting with getting that left hand to come down a fraction after the right hand comes down at the 2+. Am I making things harder than it should be? It would be easier if I struck LH and RH at the same time. It does sound better, tho, when I play it a bit after the right hand.
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"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010623 - 01/26/08 03:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
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#1010624 - 01/26/08 03:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thanks, rintincop - Would you be so kind as to post your rendition of the scale? (Lesson 8)

I learn quickly by listening. I would love to hear it at 100 bpm or 120 if that works better for you. ;\)
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010625 - 01/26/08 07:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Hi Rosa, you need to accent EVERY +. Not just 2+ and 4+. So it's every other beat.

[/b]
Now I'm confused,

if I play 8th notes, 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +, the 1 2 3 4 is a little longer and softer and the + is shorter with an accent. Right ??

Serge
_________________________

“Being able to hear recorded music freed up loads of musicians that couldn't necessarily afford to learn to read or write music. With recording, it was emancipation for the people.”
-Keith Richards


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#1010626 - 01/26/08 08:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Serge, that's correct but in Rosa's earlier recording she swung only some of the notes.
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#1010627 - 01/26/08 08:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
That was great, Rosa! Keep up the good work.

Now, an unanswered question that you, Rosa asked above. Here it is:

Q: When we hit that 2nd beat of LH Charleston, is it supposed to come down slightly after the swing of the 2+ of the RH or do they come down together at the same time?

I guess either jazzwee or Chris can answer it.

I am still fighting with getting that left hand to come down a fraction after the right hand comes down at the 2+. Am I making things harder than it should be? It would be easier if I struck LH and RH at the same time. It does sound better, tho, when I play it a bit after the right hand. [/b]
Ritincop gave a beautiful explanation. I will just add to it. In principle, the LH is the equivalent of the Rhythm section and its main function is to set the groove. Thus, the LH must be steady and exacting.

The RH plays in synch with this groove but it doesn't mean they play exactly at the same time. They play in a way that emphasizes the groove. In more advanced playing, the LH could drag the beat significantly and then get back on the beat. There's a Tension and Release effect with this.

But to do this, the LH and RH, or RH and Rhythm section must be solid as a rock first. Then later you can make all these time variations. Just note though that for dragging or getting ahead of the beat on the RH to sound good, it needs to go back to the beat often as it is tense to leave the beat.
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#1010628 - 01/26/08 10:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Serge88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Serge, that's correct but in Rosa's earlier recording she swung only some of the notes. [/b]
OK thanks,

Serge
_________________________

“Being able to hear recorded music freed up loads of musicians that couldn't necessarily afford to learn to read or write music. With recording, it was emancipation for the people.”
-Keith Richards


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#1010629 - 01/26/08 11:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
BTW Rosa and Barb, it's pretty hard to do Charleston on LH and Melody on the RH. The usual style is to stab the LH chords at the right moments, like 1 and 2+ but only when the RH is quiet. So if you listen to the way I did it at the beginning, I did not always play the LH.

The point to the Charleston exercise is that chords swing by timing the stabbing to the appropriate beat (1 and 2+ in this case). If you listen to pros comp on their LH while playing on the RH, you'll see some that have extremely short stabs on the LH, similar to what I was doing. Or Brad Mehldau's style which is unneven lengths of chords depending on holes in the RH playing. Or sometimes Bill Evans will just play a whole note. So there's no fixed way but the general approach is to have the LH balance the RH in some manner that's musically appropriate.

So this exercise doesn't mean that you will play a steady Charleston beat on the LH at all times. Learn to leave a hole here and there when there's a busy RH part.
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#1010630 - 01/27/08 07:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
jazzwee - The LIGHT has turned on for me. The reason I wasn't attempting the AL melody with LH comping was because after seeing Lesson 8, I thought Charleston was to be played with the AL melody. I tried it and said WHOA. That is nasty! So, for the past few days, I've been trying to get the left hand Charleston down with the scale exercise ... with hopes that it would then transfer to the AL melody.

Stabbing chords at the right moments - of course! \:D

Thank you for your post.

AL here I come! (I'll still be practicing Lesson 8 to build up some speed.)
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A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010631 - 01/27/08 07:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
\:\) Actually I find this kind of discussion & interaction and also handing in our midi assignments very helpful to our learning and progress.

If others are following this thread, do join in the fun because the more, the merrier.

I am not going to beat an ol' horse to death (ie. lesson 8)....LOL.... but to do this alongside with Autumn Leaves.

Barb, where are you in AL? I've done Lesson 1 & 2 and will start Lesson 3.

Please lead the way.
I am a better follower...hee hee.

Rosa

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#1010632 - 01/27/08 09:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi again - Here is my first try at AL with a left hand accompaniment of stabbing chords. Ok, so I delayed breakfast this morning until I started to get the swing of things ;\)

http://www.box.net/shared/kse3kt8g00

Rosa - I'm glad you're here with me. I have read through all of the lessons. I have some background in rootless voicings. Now that I have finally jumped into the AL melody, I will back track and spend time on each of the assignments for each lesson.

Like you, I joined up late in the game. I was too anxious to get my feet wet so I dove into lesson 8 thinking that was where I needed to begin.

So all - feedback please .... LH, RH ... where do I go from here on this tune?

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010633 - 01/27/08 12:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Wow, that was really swingin' Barb! Congratulations!

You're doing the RH correctly. The LH stabbing was also nice and comfortable. Just remember that you need to hit the 2+ on the stabs instead of on the beat. I know that's hard to think about and that's why you ingrain the Charleston practice. The 2+ will make the LH swing.

Other than that, you really got it. Your RH melody quarter notes were detached and the melody was played in a bouncy swing style.

I think you are ready for some soloing.
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1010634 - 01/27/08 01:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thank you for the feedback, jazzwee. In my posted example, I used the LH form from the scale exercise in Lesson 8 (1-7, 1-3).

I'll assume I'm to use the same LH form when I experiment with soloing.

Onward I go ... such fun!
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010635 - 01/27/08 02:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1010636 - 01/27/08 02:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1010637 - 01/27/08 02:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thank you, rintincop. Would you believe I had to relisten to my playing to see what you were saying. In other words, I was totally unaware of a left hand pattern as I was playing it. I was just stabbing away, hoping it would make sense.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010638 - 01/28/08 01:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Combo Version of Melody[/b]

Here's my combo version of the Autumn Leaves melody. Rootless voicings on the LH. Listen to the syncopation on the comping which comes from Charleston timing. Played at 150bpm. Note that LH does not constantly comp and I fill in when the RH is quiet (at least that's the plan).

http://www.box.net/shared/bvpru4jk0w

I will see about getting the MIDI of this file posted tomorrow. The MIDI has 3 choruses of AL for soloing (with just bass and drums). Then you can slow down the MIDI for your desired tempo.

I made this on my brand new Yamaha Motif XS6. I'm just figuring the keyboard out.

Note that the melody is simplified compared to the sheet music version. Very common in playing AL.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
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#1010639 - 01/28/08 03:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
On the LH syncopation, rather than thinking separately of the Charleston of the LH against the melody of the RH, I would suggest a tapping exercise where you count

 Code:
Beats | 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +| 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |
RH    | 1   2   3   4  | 1   2   3   4   |
LH    | 1     +        | 1     +         |
where + means the + of the 2. Feel that syncopation on the LH. When playing the chord, you can play the chord on '1' and '2+' short or long depending on the space you want to fill.

At full value the chords played on beat 1, or + of the 2 is a dotted Quarter. But the choice of the length of the chord when comping is fully a personal choice or based on emulating someone's particular style.

You can practice this exercise without a keyboard. Do it while in the car so you get the beat ingrained in your system.

When I was playing it, in hindsight I frequently ended up with 3 chord stabs each time which is actually + of 2, 1, then + of 2 again. That's because that's the empty space I was filling.
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#1010640 - 01/28/08 09:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
jazzwee, great stuff you are posting here. Congrats on your new family member ( the keyboard ).

I have a question regarding soloing. Would it be OK if I start out with the left hand just playing whole notes while my right hand searches frantically for the notes ... PLUS, trying to play those notes with a bouncy swing rhythm. This makes more sense than trying to put the 2 together at first. What is your take on this re: first attempts at soloing?

You've probably guessed by now that I tried those 2 hands together - it was NOT pretty!
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010641 - 01/28/08 11:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
I was about to say, what's a rootless voicing? What's with teasing us with a technique we have not even learned yet? Then I went back to the index. Somehow, I completely missed that lesson. More catching up....

Congrats on the new board. I got an XS8 a couple of months ago too. Pretty sweet boards. Gotta love that performance mode. So many (more) things to learn tho. Hopefully, you've already discovered http://www.motifator.com.

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#1010642 - 01/28/08 12:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Barb, playing Whole notes on the LH is totally kosher. Better yet is just play to the combo and DO NOT USE YOUR LEFT HAND.

Just like anything else, this has to be practiced separately. It's ok if it takes you a year to join the LH with the RH. This didn't come to me automatically either. But my point here is to practice so that eventually the LH will go on autopilot. Lots of technique to develop here.
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
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#1010643 - 01/28/08 12:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:

Congrats on the new board. I got an XS8 a couple of months ago too. Pretty sweet boards. Gotta love that performance mode. So many (more) things to learn tho. Hopefully, you've already discovered http://www.motifator.com. [/b]
Thanks Deeluk, I had an S90 and S90ES before so I was already going to Motifator (though not lately). Do you know I specifically bought a workstation so I can post here? (this thread is getting expensive \:D )
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#1010644 - 01/28/08 01:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:

Congrats on the new board. I got an XS8 a couple of months ago too. Pretty sweet boards. Gotta love that performance mode. So many (more) things to learn tho. Hopefully, you've already discovered http://www.motifator.com. [/b]
Thanks Deeluk, I had an S90 and S90ES before so I was already going to Motifator (though not lately). Do you know I specifically bought a workstation so I can post here? (this thread is getting expensive \:D ) [/b]
Wow. I won't tell anyone if you don't. Have fun!

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#1010645 - 01/28/08 01:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Better yet is just play to the combo and DO NOT USE YOUR LEFT HAND.[/b]
Beautiful words and a sigh of relief \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1010646 - 01/28/08 03:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Alene Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/05
Posts: 78
Loc: Oregon
Hi Everyone: Iv'e mostly been a lurker in PW and just post occasionally, so hope it's OK if I join this thread. This Charleston rhythm and Jazz are both pretty new to me but I'm trying to learn and follow along.

I decided to come out of hiding and ask for help on whether I have the right idea or what I am doing wrong so I can practice correctly.

I just played this with no "frills" and pretty slow....can't do anymore at this time but am hopeing for feedback on what I need to do to be on the right track.

http://www.box.net/shared/g6cv1ltcsc

Everyone else is playing so well and so nice of Jazzwee and the others to be teaching this.

My thanks to all!

Alene

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#1010647 - 01/28/08 03:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Combo Backing Track With Melody - MIDI[/b]

MIDI File

http://www.box.net/shared/rjyes19okg
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#1010648 - 01/28/08 04:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Alene, Welcome! Your melody and LH shells sound great so you're on the right track. I'm very happy you've joined us.

Now progress to the next stage by working on the rhythm. At the beginning level just play the chords on the top of the measure (beat 1 as whole notes and make sure your melody lands in the right part of the measure. Look at the sheet music again. Your goal is to get the melody and chords synchronized. You can play this slowly, that doesn't matter.

For example, you'll need to time the 1st chord Am7 as in this illustration (think of the melody with the words):

 Code:
|  1   2   3    4    | 1   2   3   4  | 1
|      The Fal- ling | Leaves         | 
                       ^                ^
                       |                |
                      Am7               D7
Good luck!
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1010649 - 01/28/08 07:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Here we go again. Here is my first solo attempt on AL.

http://www.box.net/shared/1n735zlusw

I did what you suggested jazzwee - RH only!

Feedback please.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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