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THanks, Jazzwee and Chrisbell, I have enough to go on now.

Ignore

Chris, hard to hold back isn't it? Now you know how I feel...

But I guess we'll just have to have everyone make their self discoveries at their own pace. In some ways, maybe the rootless voicings are premature but the questions are leading in that direction so might as well get it out of the way.

On another thread in a PW forum, we were criticized for teaching nothing but playing triads in the key of C . Some rootless voicings should get that misconception straightened out.

Actually for AL, I voice my D7 on the LH as 'D#, A, D'. The crunchy way That should give them something to think about. That's my triad...(for those so inclined, it's an F7).

More on Modern Stride, Rootless Voicings

One thing I forgot to add about playing modern stride with rootless voicings, often you would pedal the bass note and jump to the voicing just like in the old stride (but remember that bass roots in modern stride is much more irregular).

There's a stylistic choice to also play the bass note very briefly and lightly with no pedal.

In solo piano, you can mix up rootless voicings (with or without stride), together with any of the voicings we have discussed previously, including Walking Bass. But rootless voicings are pretty much the standard fare when in a combo.

The voicings discussed here could be 90% of what a new jazzer would utilize. One more voicing that has not been discussed are BLOCK CHORDS. And we will discuss that at a later time.

Now if you listen to the Jazz Masters, what you hear may still not be explained by the voicings for the chords as discussed here.

This goes into a more complex subject and that is SUBSTITUTIONS. In jazz, if one fully understands Harmony, it opens up a whole world of choices when playing a tune. This can be done one the fly, or one could arrange a tune in advance to sound different and this is the process of REHARMONIZATION.

This means that instead of playing AL with the standard ii-V-I chords, maybe we'll play a completely different chord progression while still playing the same melody. And this is the colorful jazz sound that one hears and is more intense than even the voicings discussed here would suggest.

We will discuss some of these harmonic concepts a little at a time, picking on various topics. In the meantime, let these voicing concepts sink in. Think of the big picture of everything that has been discussed and feel free to ask questions.

This is my FIRST post in the Piano World Forum (in the 19th page of a long thread LOL!!!!)

Though I am new here but a few of you know me very well already in this piano journey.

In the past week, this thread of Autumn Leaves caught my eyes and I have been following through it with GREAT INTEREST.

First, I want to give a HEARTY THANKS especially to Jazzwee and Chrisbell for the time they had taken to share themselves with us and putting such a great amount of time to teach us step-by-step. We are truly very GRATEFUL for your interest and patience in taking our hands to help us each step of the way to success.

My GOAL: to want to be able to DO spontaneous solo improvisation in the moment.

I realize that this thread is leading to my goal and that the lessons given to us by Jazzwee is a method/approach not only applying to Autumn Leaves but to other songs as well --- Yaaay!!!

So here I am starting from SCRATCH back to Lesson 1 on p. 1 and not to skip the lessons so that I don't miss anything on the way.

Please come in and give me comments. All comments are welcome so feel free to tell me whether I am on the right track.

Lesson One

http://www.box.net/shared/kgl0a1oe84

This lesson is very instructive for me because I can learn to hear the chord progression of the song without concentrating so much on the melody line.

Also to be mindful of the 3rd in the melody line for soloing improvisation is what I want to do.

Lesson Two (but wrong swing)

http://www.box.net/shared/sfzzllh0co

I always thought the swing is done like that.

But it is an eye opener to me when Jazzwee says to do it: legato on that 1st off beat and staccato on the quarter beat.

Not too late......to make correction so that I can change my habit before it sets in wrongly.

So I did the following REAL swing according to Jazzwee suggestion.

Lesson Two Real Swing

http://www.box.net/shared/azg6dduqs4

Let me know:
1. is the legato is held too long for the first off beat?
2. is the staccato for the quarter beat right?
3. do I have the Charleston Rhythm on the LH?


Rosa

Oh....a bonus....the following recording I did without any preparation but in the moment. I thought it would be interesting to hear what I really sound like in my present style when I play Autumn Leaves and it should be interesting to find out what I eventually can do with this song after these lessons.

Rosa's Style:

http://www.box.net/shared/zbmxktco4c

Hi Rosa! Rosa has been communicating with me privately before so I already commented on her intitial works. I'm glad you figured out how to post.

To answer your questions,

#1 - No it is fine. Accent it though.
#2 - Quarter beat is detached but not staccato. The official term would be Marcato. So almost full value but with just a noticeable pull up at the end. Maybe a 32th rest. Listen to the way I play it at the beginning of the thread. It can be subtle and a little hard to learn so you need to concentrate on listening to it.

#3 Your LH is not yet a Charleston Beat. A Charleston has an off tempo feel because one of the sounds occur at the '2+' of the measure.

So typically it is at Beat 1 and at Beat 2+. The length of each chord stab can vary. Chris Bell has it long, I played it with short stabs.

Count it out so you can see where it lands. Now remember too that the melody does not start on beat 1.


Rosa you apparently already have classical piano skills so you will that the hardest transition to jazz is actually rhythmic. Listen to the various recordings carefully and see if you can pick out what we are talking about.

In a one-to-one teacher to student live interaction, we could interact on the swing feel several times in a lesson, but due to the nature of internet forums, this is the hardest thing to teach. So the solution is to rely on a lot of listening.

I find that advance in Jazz comes from building the ability to discern what you are listening to. At this stage in my learning, I am able to discern swing ratios and accents. This is harder for someone beginning. But you will get there.

We did put a lot of material on swing discussions. I would listen to all that and then see if you understand what some of the discussions relate to.

You're a very hard worker Rosa so you'll develop pretty quickly!

Rosa, one thing I noticed on your beautiful, ballad rendition that you can work on, is that your melody is not starting off in the same place.

In AL, using your version of the melody, in the first four bars of the tune, the melody should start at 2+ each time, with the whole note landing exactly on beat 1. You did it correctly on the first two bars so just apply that same counting to all of them. Lots of rhythmic thinking to do here.

Hopefully you know what I mean when I say 2+. If not, let me know and I will explain it again.

Jazzwee, the lesson 6 link (2+3 voicing) in the index is landing in the wrong spot. Should be:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/32/5653/15.html#000368

thanks Deeluk. Done. That index is getting to be of critical importance now. Hard to remember where everything is.

So, I have spent the last three days grinding your 2+3 voicings through the circle of fifths. Enlightment! This is absolutely amazing!

I dug out the only Jamey Aebersold book that I have ever bought, and I can keep up with the changes in the A section of "The Nearness of You"! Even figured out how to fit in a diminished chord. Here's my advice to anybody that hasn't done so - find some kind of track that goes through the circle of fifths with ii-V7-I progressions and practice all 12. It will be well worth the time. I spent about 20 hours at it this weekend, but you may learn faster.

I have a track on a CD that came with a jazz book that cycles through arpeggios using ii-V-I, so I practice filline in the chord progressions as a background to it. It takes the monotony out of the practicing and prevents you from cheating on the tempo.

Thanks again for the forum! I have made more progress since the forum started than I have made in the last two years!

Gotta run - have to finish section B tonight.

kbj, to clarify, so were you just going around the circle and playing ii,V,I's like this:

C - Dm7,G7,CM7
G - Am7,D7,GM7
D - Em7,A7,DM7
etc.

And for voicings you were doing 1/7 on the LH a 3 on the RH?

Sorry, but this thread has gotten so big I can't find which were the 2+3 voicings.

bluekeys, we have been indexing everything on Page 1. So 2+3 voicings are Lesson 6.

It's an advanced level comping voicing and sounds great. By the time you get to 'Lesson 7 - Rootless Voicings', you will be in another world again.

There's more to this my friends, but these are the foundations.

Just so everyone's expectation is clear, I think 2+3 voicings are doable in a short time frame as KeyboardJungle has proven.

Rootless voicings are probably twice as difficult because there are two sets (A & B Voicings). Initially I would just sit there and memorize each possibility and not really analyze it much.

However, I'd like to say here that as you advance in your journey (which could be years), it is my experience that the INTERVALS themselves become automatic. This means that it should take very little brain time to identify a voicing based, for example on a '3, 5, 7, 9' of a Minor 7 chord.

This is means daily practice of recognizing scales and chord tones. There's really no shortcut to getting to an advanced level. It's hard work. But motivated adults are particularly good at getting this accomplished, probably more so than younger people.

All we're doing in Autumn Leaves is introducing the ideas. Just because we're doing a ii-V-I in G doesn't mean you do it only in G. Yes as a beginner you do, but always try to up the ante for your own development.

KeyboardJungle has done exactly what is needed and by taking this to 12 keys, he has accomplished a heck of a lot.

Jazzwee your feedback is very valuable and much appreciated. Thanks.

Yes, I understand what "2+" is. It's one thing to know it in your head but another to actually be letting that rhythm ring out at the right time. (I "thought" I was doing the 2nd hit on the + of the 2+ but apparently not quite.)

I'll be listening to those midi and recordings to get the feel......once I get the feel of it, the counting should come along.

The off beat accent and the swings are different from what I have been used to playing. Once this rhythm thing get going.....and mastered.....everything should flow.

This should be a lot of fun to 'mess' around with.

Rosa

Rosa, try recording the Charleston by itself once you get the hang of it. You know the 1920's Charleston right? This is the same thing except slowed down. Does your keyboard have a rhythm or metronome? It's pretty hard to do Charleston without a time reference for counting.

I may be missing something, but those voicings seem to be varied somewhat to reduce RH movement and provide voice leading for AL. For purposes of an initial drill to gain familiarity with ii,V,I progressions, couldn't I use something a little more straight-forward, like the 3/b3-5-9 RH patterns in this pdf Chris put together? (transposed to the other 11 keys as well, of course).

http://www.directionsinmusic.com/jazz_ex/AL_1-7_3-5-9.pdf

Please let me know if you think that would be a mistake for some reason. Thanks!

bluekeys, the 2+3 voicing is specifically a comping lesson and has a more rich harmony because of the presence of 9ths and 13ths.

It in fact starts out with 3/5/9 RH on the ii chord but if you don't move your RH, suddenly the voicing becomes richer with the 3/5/9 turning into 7/9/13 on the V chord. The LH is doing 1/7 and switching to 1/3 on the ii/V.

So this is important to learn as it introduces you to some pretty snazzy jazz harmonies, but all you did was NOT MOVE THE RIGHT HAND.

This is an excellent comping practice for ii-V-I.

Of course you can also just do a fixed 1/7 on the LH and a constant 3/5/9 on the RH as in Chris's example. That's a good starting point as the finger intervals are the same.

But real jazz playing relies a lot on voice leading which keeps motions down. Lesson 6 is more advanced. Lesson 7 is even more advanced. So that's where you eventually need to get to. Travel at your own pace. Start at whatever you're comfortable with first.

Those who have tried the 2+3 Voicings I gave here can vouch for the fact that they sound really good for a basic voicing. Very jazzy. As I mentioned before, this did not come from any book. Given that this was meant to be applied to AL and interspersed with melody, it is easier to play than a pure 1/7,3/5/9 at all times because there's more motions in that. Harder to play a melody that way.

Slightliy off-topice from AL but not from playing jazz. here's good interview with Keith Jarrett about his standard trio and their cd live at montreux.
it\'s here (playback magazine)

jazzwee, Your index on page 1 is very helpful. I do have a quick question. How many lessons are there? Lesson 5 is missing from the list.

Here comes my version of Charleston beat

http://www.box.net/shared/xykscqvmso

If it is, am I able to keep it steady throughout?
If not, what am I doing?

Rosa

Gang,

Just stumbled across another professional version from Patricia Barber. It's available for download for free. Check it out.

http://www.patriciabarber.com/mp3/pb-autumnleaves-05.mp3

Hi Barb, Lesson 5 is Walking Bass. Looks like I accidentally erased it. It's back now.