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Lets see if this works:
http://www.box.net/shared/ncuokx9oev

Edit: Hey! It works for me!

So what I've done is just plain and simple AAB (got what you're saying about the format - I listened again and I think I was counting wrong at first). I've done what I generally do, which is to put the tonic, and only the tonic, in the bass and the rest in the RH somewhere. I don't repeat the tonic in the RH. And unless I know what I want to do, I keep it simple. This is somewhere to start from.

Will check out the Zoom H4 later, but for now, this works.

sounds very good TLT! You've got the correct chords. Challenge yourself with a strict tempo though. A good beginner's tempo for this is 120bpm.

Somewhere in the lessons, we discuss the two handed style (2+3), which is really important to learn. Then you put the melody at the top.

This is a lot more flexible than just playing a "root" at the bottom and RH chord on top.

BTW - lingo wise, "tonic" doesn't really mean the root note. Like in this tune, the tonic could be "G" and "Em". So we refer to the Root of the chord (like the root of Am7 is A, D7 is D).

Have fun. Lots of stuff in this thread.

Okey doke, I'll read on and post more - probably in a few days time. Thanks for the feedback. I was just amazed I got everything to work!

FYI to thread participants. Riddler has compiled all the lessons in a PDF and is in top of the thread under LESSONS. Thanks Riddler!

OK, as in lesson 1b (LH root and 7th, RH melody).

http://www.box.net/shared/ea65ib4c7y

and a little jazzier:

http://www.box.net/shared/yjxy1bbg8y

I had to play very quiety so as not to wake the kids, but hopefully it's clear enough you can hear. If you hear me hesitating or making a mistake, that's because I'm resisting the temptation to write it out as notes. Never really played much by ear before.


Quoting Jazzwee:
"Analysis is key to learning anything in jazz. Before you attempt to play it, you should know the key centers intimately."

First off, what are key centres? Not sure whether I know them intimately or not!

As far as analysis goes, first thing I notice with the chords, um, changes, is that it's mostly cycling down the fifths. There's not much that isn't that. Second thing I notice, when I add the medody, is how often I end up playing the 3rd of the chord in the right hand. This turns into the 7th when I go down the 5th. Hope this makes sense.

Next thing to check out is Riddler's PDF and lesson 1c, I suppose?

I have a question.

I've looked on to lesson #2 (root, 7th and 3rd). There's a note that's killing me. In section B, bar 11, its says: Em7 A7. For the second chord that means a C# in the RH. Which is strange for Em/Gmaj. And it sounds off. Then I checked where jazzwee wrote out the notes and it says [A G, C].

So, you see my confusion?

TLT, you are correct. That is a typo. A G C is Am7 not A7. It should be C#.

TLT, you've done a very good job with your recordings. I'm ignoring the hesitation and you are demonstrating good rhythm. Looks like your classical training is kicking in here.

Now I will follow the style I have used with teaching the other participants in this thread by moving you up a notch to the next level.

I want to teach you about Jazz phrasing. Authentic jazz phrasing has some sacrosanct rules, particularly if you're just beginning.

Listen to my version of the melody and track the points I'm going to say here.

1. Play Eighth notes Legato, but play the last Eighth note in a phrase short (detached).

2. Play Quarter/(Crotchets) notes short (detached).

3. Play Half/Whole notes to full value.

Then play all the notes slightly behind the beat. This phrasing strategy will apply to melodies and improvisation. This is the most basic level you have to remember.

On the question of Key Center, you correctly surmise that Autumn Leaves makes a play on the Circle of Fifths. But what is the TONIC of the Circle of fifths in this case?

The answer is key of G and its relative minor, Em, which basically uses the same scale. The scale of G.

The quick way to determine the key is the look for the V chord (Dominant chord) and then a fifth down from that is the tonic. The first dominant chord is D7 and that resolves to G.

The minor part of the chord progression has B7b9 which resolves to Em.

There's a long explanation of this in the theory section which is not part of the lessons. You'll have to look it up within these pages (I haven't gotten yet to correcting the index references).

Keep at it TLT!

Yes, but which is right? Previously, I played an A7 as written, including a C#. It didn't really stand out. But when I played a lone C# in the RH, it really made me jump. So I'm querying whether the changes as written at the start of the thread are correct. Shouldn't it be a Am7?

Glad you told me - as soon as you say it, and I listen, I think 'YES!' but I couldn't have pinned it down.

There's that detached - not staccato - feel. Just putting space between the notes, like each one matters and deserves its own space.

I noticed in your recording some dotted rhythms which are mostly legato.

Now, as for quavers (8th notes, which I have no intention of venturing into just now), lets say if I have 4 quavers, we'll call them 1, 2, 3 and 4. I understand I come off 4 quickly, but do I go legato between 3 and 4?

Playing the notes behind the beat - do I play anything on the beat? Left hand perhaps? Because otherwise, it's going to be awful hard to keep time. I can hear it, but there must be something on the beat.

All in all - this is going to take some getting used to. This is not an overnight conversion job.

I've read the first page of the thread, and there's some rumblings of discussion about whether it's best to see part of it in G maj or just interpret the whole thing in E min, which I can see as kind of a six-or-half-a-dozen debate. At least, that's what I think is being discussed.

The first half of section B is G major-ish - is that there the D7 you were referring to (the melody goes up an octave from D to D)?

Apart from that, A resolves down to Emin, as does the second half of B.

btw - 'Key centre' just means - the key it's in? It's a term I'm not familiar with.

TLT, I just finished fixing up most of the links on the index so it will be easier to find stuff now (whew!). Just let me know if you find links that are still not working.

Ok back to your questions.

The dotted rhythm you refer to is called the "Charleston Rhythm" and there's a link to that now. Once you get more advanced, the left hand doesn't play on the beat anymore and instead plays this swing Rhythm. This is very difficult since the right hand needs to (a) be aware of the implied beats of 2 and 4, and (b) be able to play slightly behind that known beat.

At this early stage, I would just stick to playing the left hand on the beat with whole notes and first being aware of the timing of the right hand.

There are lots of swing discussions in the (now) active links. read up on that again and I think it will get into your specific questions.

Jazz is a lot about listening. Part of the beauty of the lines is in the phrasing which has a forward motion to it (compared to classical). There's a technique to it just like playing anything in piano and it is based on a precision of the time elements.

Remember that in Jazz, the LH emulates the Rhythm Section (Bass and Drums) and the RH is the soloist. The bass player focuses on the quarter notes and keeps a solid time. The drummer highlights the beats 2 and 4.

In a real band situation, the soloist comps with the left hand typically with a charleston rhythm (or variations thereof). This contrasts against the bass player.

The melody lines/solo lines control the main swing feel and match the drummer's 2 and 4 accents. The slight dragging of the melody/solo lines brings a relaxed feel to the whole thing.

Listen to the Jazz masters play. Start listening to some slower tunes and you will see this interaction.

In solo piano playing, we have to emulate all of the above. We can't do it all the time so we mix and match and rotate tasks and the listener begins to imagine the big picture.

BTW - please note that the posts of what I played was from 2 years ago and I would likely play many of those differently now. But I think the examples still communicate the concept.

Back to the key center question, we just say the "key it is in" for simplicity sake.

The importance of figuring out if you are dealing with G, or both G and Em has meaning when you are improvising since it affects your choice of notes in a solo.

For a beginning improviser, it is simpler to think of it as just the key of G. So you can play the G scale in the entire tune.

However, for the more advanced improviser, it is important to understand that half of it is in Em since a ii-v-i in minor offers completely different scale choices (such as the half diminished and diminished scales). That makes for a more interesting and modern sound. That is the point of the debate of G vs. Em. Officially, the tune is noted as G/Em.

the D7 I'm referring to is
| Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Cmaj7 |....

| ii | V | I | IV |

Roman Numeral I implies the Tonic.

I presume you know this from classical theory?

OK, next installment.

Saying something like a IV-V-I progression - yes, I get this. And I understand by convention you give it a lower case letter if it's a minor chord? Someone told me that once.

I decided the note I was worried about is a C# in the end. Had a listen around, you play it as a C#, not natural, so that's good enough for me.

Four offerings today. First, as in lesson 2 (LH shell voicings, RH 3rd). Straight and simple:
http://www.box.net/shared/kohfrt4t94

As above, but with a bit of rhythmic interest, and the added torture of my warbling (Apologies for this, but it's how I practice. If you think this is bad, you should hear me sing):
http://www.box.net/shared/x4xrhm5dxv

Trying to swing. Melody only:
http://www.box.net/shared/2u4334on31

Still trying. Melody plus LH shell voicings:
http://www.box.net/shared/334mifr4h8

Let me know what you think. Would like to talk through swing some more, but too tired just now.

OK TLT, listened to two of them so far. The first one, I don't think you were counting as the beats were off. It was going awfully fast. But on the second one, you did it perfectly as you whistled. So all I suggest here is always count or tap the beat. This is a 4/4 tune so tap out all the chords.

This must be in the subconscious since when you improvise, you will have to keep the form even if the RH intentionally goes out of time or drags the beat. So I'll be a stickler for this for your own good.

You did an amazing job of doing a dotted rhythm on the left hand. BUT -- this is not jazz. You're close though and good thing someone can guide you. This is important to understand. The dotted rhythm is accurate. However the CHARLESTON Rhythm, which Jazz is based on, starts on BEAT 2. Not BEAT 1. Again listen closely to how I play it. This is a major difference. In Jazz the impulse is on beats 2 and 4. In classical it is 1 and 3. So if the impulse is on the wrong beat, it will sound like Polka music

So how do you practice this? With a Metronome, have the Metronome click only on 2 and 4. You can tap 1 and 3 with your foot.

Then start the dotted rhythm on 2. This can be quite challenging but read up on the discussion of Charleston rhythm again.

You are progressing very nicely here and these are just the usual discoveries in jazz. So don't be alarmed. Everyone goes through the same areas of difficulty.

TLT, I couldn't put my finger on it the first time because I listened to it rather quickly. I was incorrect in what I said earlier.

What was wrong with the rhythm is that you were playing the left hand on beat 1 and beat 3, which is why I was hearing that polka sound.

The correct charleston rhythm is beat 1 and 2+ which needs to be practiced against the beat 2 and 4 of a metronome.

I do this automatically so I forget what beat I use until I actually sat down on a piano and remembered I was doing it on beat 1 and 2+. 2+ is the eighth note between beat 2 and 3. I hope this makes sense. It would probably be more accurate to refer back to our Charleston discussion on the link above.

On the swing melody, it sounded pretty good to me, except when you started doing the stacatto notes on the bridge section. Those are eighth notes so they all have to be played legato and long. Remember, we play only detached notes on quarters and the last eighth of a phrase.

TLT, may I say that I'm giving you advanced comments already. You are picking this up rather quickly. We've only been at it a few days. Normally, at the early stages, I would just say play whole notes on the left hand as Charleston can be difficult to learn. But I get the feeling that you can handle it.

If you want to get a good handle on the Charleston, try listening to some oldie Charleston tunes from the swing 40's. This is not jazz per se but that is where the rhythm came from.

The rhythmic side of jazz is the most difficult and actually significantly affects how a solo sounds. So understand that it takes a long time to master swing. Admitedly it is easier to show than to discuss in a forum. But that's our limitation here.

Thanks for your comments Jazzwee, I'll need to come back to this next week. In the meantime, are there any Charleston dances, tunes, artists on youtube that you can point me in the direction of? Had a quick look on Wikipedia, which wasn't too informative. This isn't something I'm familiar with, and I just don't know where to begin.