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#1279392 - 10/02/09 01:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I think striving to be a master is fun smile Otherwise what would we have to do in our old age wink It is funny that I'm obsessed with Jazz piano but this does not make me money. So why do I do it?Why do you do it?


Obsession, addiction. I never understood those words until I experienced it myself when I went back to the piano Jan 2006. Can't understand how or why it happened. I just couldn't stay away from the piano.

Possibly the music satisfies something that has been missing in one's life. But, it is a harmless addiction -- unlike many other addictions. wink
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#1279510 - 10/02/09 04:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Online   content
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I don't know why myself. But when I hear what's coming out from my playing as I get better, I get even more excited. So the urge increases rather than decreases smile

I've always liked to improvise (did so on guitar) so I guess that desire for expression was always there. But the piano is very powerful and you create the whole orchestral wall of sound all by yourself.

The reason we hang out in this forum is that our obsession goes beyond even the playing. We also want to talk about it smile
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#1279555 - 10/02/09 06:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Internet addiction - also very powerful.

Like jazzwee, I like the idea of getting better, feeling that I can do something I couldn't do last week, and even if progress is very slow, feeling that next year I will do better yet.

I can't honestly say I'm hooked on improvising yet - it's still a leap every time.

But I have always wanted to be able to improvise, and it did bother me that I couldn't. Did I tell this story here? I been taking piano lessons for 10 years. My piano teacher took the music away and told me to improvise. No note is wrong. Fine, I said, but which note is *least* not wrong? Honestly, I'd spent 10 years in the pursuit of the right note at the right time, played in the right way. What was I supposed to do?

For me, it's almost like a personal affront if there's an instrument or a style that I can't play. It's there - I've got to play it. Does it come from playing in a school band where we would swap instruments to see if the teacher noticed? Or when we put down the instruments and play the music stands instead? (I swear, it sounded better...).

It's like, if the ability is there, in me, and inhibited because, say, I'm obsessed with playing the right note - then that is a shame. A waste. Lack of fulfillment. Make any sense?
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#1279738 - 10/03/09 01:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Online   content
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TLT, I wonder why you think you cannot improvise?

A couple of points to think about based on my experience early on. I've already said here over and over that at the beginning stages, all you have to do is memorize the chord tones and pick them. This just shows you that there's nothing magical about the notes. This is the bulk of the sound you hear. So if you pick a correct chord tone (matching the chord I mean), then it cannot be in error. Feel confident about that.

Later on you can learn cool scales to vary some chords and suddenly you will feel like you sound different. But that's later on.

Now I know you've tried chord tones and like I was originally, I was disatisfied with the sound that came out.

That was when the light bulb turned on in my head. It isn't about the notes. It never was. You have to believe that chord tones make up most of the sound. Bill Evans used mostly chord tones. Same with McCoy Tyner who was big on Pentatonics. You are not going to pick notes different from these guys.

BUT -- why are you unsatisfied with the sound? Because in the end it's all about phrasing. Phrasing involves, the swing, the accents, the rhythmic elements that turn the notes into a melody. That is a language of expression in jazz and it has to be assimilated by listening.

So don't worry about the notes. When someone says improvise, hit a chord tone, especially the third. And don't worry about what you think it sounds like. It cannot be bad. It can't even be a wrong note. I don't like the randomness that no note is wrong. Plenty of notes are wrong.

Now this is the next step is to assimilate the rhythmic elements of Jazz. Remember Freddie the Freeloader? Just mouth the phrasing of the lines. You will notice how those specific swing rules are applied to make a phrase (quarter notes short, eighths long except for one before a rest, long half notes...this is all theory). When you can humm the phrasing (forget the tonality for a moment), you will begin to use it.

Frankly, this is the most difficult part of jazz. It never was the notes. This is what makes improvisation difficult. Although there are only typically 6-7 correct notes to pick per chord (1/3/5/7/9/11/13), the rhythmic permutations are incredibly large. And it takes a long time to do it automatically.

It's just a language that has to be learned.
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#1279773 - 10/03/09 04:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
TLT, I wonder why you think you cannot improvise?



On the contrary, I can! yippie

My point was that I couldn't. And that bothered me.

I've learned something. smile I'm aware there's a long way to go, but I have learned something.
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#1279821 - 10/03/09 07:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Tlt,

It's really amazing the progress you've made.
The way I look at it, you owe Jazzwee one!
I'm thinking he likes Scotch.
Hey Jazzwee, please don't drink it all on your own, I'm still planning on paying you a visit one of these days...


To the question. Why do we play?
Honestly probably because I have nothing better to do and it gives me a nice shield from the kids sometimes. It's quite a selfish activity.
Also because I have very concerned with brain activity, and various ways to keep the brain in shape as the years go by. Music is one way to stay sharp. I also play a horn instrument because it's very good for the lungs. Plus the challenge is completely different.

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#1279869 - 10/03/09 09:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1308
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well fortunately TLT, many people who play, even pros, haven't developed this type of touch you only hear in the masters. So it's a holy grail.

Arm weight. Relaxed arm, but a strong hand. Bind the notes with the hand (arm weight - not the pedal). Work on the exercises I've posted and in 6 months or so . . . grin

KJ's touch comes from studying the classic's; Mozart, Bach, Ravel, Chopin; it's all there.
Listen to KJ at the age of 20. Read and get it here
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#1279899 - 10/03/09 11:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty


The way I look at it, you owe Jazzwee one!


I was thinking the very same thing.

Quote:
I'm thinking he likes Scotch.


Good to know.

Does anyone else have the Jazz Theory Book (Levine) and is willing to answer questions on it? It's mostly self-explanatory, but every now and then I come across a chord and think, wtf?


Edited by ten left thumbs (10/03/09 11:06 AM)
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#1279906 - 10/03/09 11:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Online   content
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You make a good point worth mentioning, Chris. The singing tone we often hear in jazz players is accomplished with practically no pedal.

That might come as a suprise to our New Age friends in this forum.

The complex nature of jazz music with its dissonances would sound muddy with pedal. So Chris is right about exercises. I use a different set of exercises that come from my teacher but the point is the same.

When playing a ballad and improvising, the middle fingers are feathering an inner harmony so the 3rd, 4th and 5th finger are left to create a solo. Some fingers have to always be down for the notes to be heard. All without pedal. I find you have to be really in control of fingers 4/5 to do this. This was exactly one of Chris' exercises.

Then there's the interplay of sound between LH and RH so that at any moment, the sound is lush and never absent.

Usually I relegate pedal use to the head of a tune where I know that the harmony will not clash. Once the solo starts, the right foot gets to just tap.
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#1279911 - 10/03/09 11:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Loc: So. California
TLT, what's your Levine question?

And please, I enjoy sharing my jazz journey. This is not about anyone owing me anything...
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#1280123 - 10/03/09 06:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Had to laugh at what knotty said about music being a shield from the kids. wink Just great!

Isn't the Levine book fantastic? This is a real eye-opener. I probably should have tackled it a while ago, but theory is so much tastier when you're hungry for it.

Levine is very good at explaining things, and not entirely without a sense of humour. Definition of 'refrain' - 'don't play - only kidding' grin

There were some chords that stumped me, but I think it's just a question of getting used to the idea that no chord is ever without the 7th and 9th (probably with a 6th thrown in too), while the 3rd, 5th and root are optional.

One thing, the delta sign with a line under it - is that a minor major 7th? Struggling to see what else it could be.
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#1280139 - 10/03/09 06:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Online   content
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Yes a Major/Minor chord. He does have an index of symbols at the front.

It is good that you picked this up easily. Most people don't, because it's not organized as one would learn them. If you have a knack for theory then it is great to start with.
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#1280419 - 10/04/09 09:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Yes a Major/Minor chord. He does have an index of symbols at the front.


He has an index. It's not bl**dy there. I've since gone onto the bit about melodic minor harmony, where he discusses how the major minor chord is notated, but he doesn't include this one.

Honestly, I'd copy edit his book for him for free! smile

Quote:
It is good that you picked this up easily. Most people don't, because it's not organized as one would learn them. If you have a knack for theory then it is great to start with.


A lot of it I already knew. Some things are vague for me, so this is pinning them down. I'm also enjoying the examples. I've never seen music actually written out like this. The 'jazz' I have come across has been pretty harmonically simple. I'm thinking perhaps I should just buy myself some sheet music and play. Working it out with the real book is just painfully slow.

What I like about it is Levine goes to the trouble of explaining it historically. 'Play this. Hear the dissonance. Until 1940 this was off-limits, then so-and-so used it, and it's been accepted since the 1960'. And because I have been listening to jazz, it is beginning to make sense.

He does ask my question. "Since D Dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian are all just different forms of the C major scale, why not just think 'play in C major' on D Min7, G7 and C maj7?" (p37). Remember I asked this, or something very similar, in another thread? Shame he doesn't answer it, at least I've not come across an answer yet.
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#1280509 - 10/04/09 12:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

He does ask my question. "Since D Dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian are all just different forms of the C major scale, why not just think 'play in C major' on D Min7, G7 and C maj7?" (p37). Remember I asked this, or something very similar, in another thread? Shame he doesn't answer it, at least I've not come across an answer yet.


I think I answered this in the Non-Classical forum in a question on Modes. Of course it is also answered here because I say that for AL, you just play the G Major Scale. The entire AL can be said to be a circle of fifths movement inside the G Major Scale.


The answer I gave, and this is also in Levine's book, is to distinguish between HORIZONTAL and VERTICAL playing. If you can find a common scale between chords (i.e. identifying modes of the scale), then you realize that you can play horizontally.

Vertical playing is to respond chord by chord and think of a scale for each chord. This is how the old bebop style was originally played. It's a test of how quickly you can change scales.

Horizontal playing became a big thing during Miles Davis' time. And you look for a common scale.

Now it is never that simple. In this AL thread, we had several people try to improvise with just the simple premise of using the G Scale. Believe it or not, soloing along horizontal lines requires a lot of ear skill and understanding of common tones among chords. Everyone has difficulty with just being given one scale. It's like there are too many choices. Everyone feels their solo doesn't sound authentic even if the scale is correct.

Simply saying there is no wrong note suggests that you can hit any note and it will sound great. Yes the choice will be consonant to the chord, but it in no way contributes to defining the harmony. So what do I say on top of this horizontal playing? I say be aware of the chord tones.

As you know, within this scale of let's say 7 notes, the important chord tones are just some of these notes. You must be aware of them and some have more value than others. For example, the 1,3,5,7 of the chord is more important than the 9,11,13. It is actually an advanced concept to think of putting 1,3,5,7 on the downbeats.

But when you start doing this, your ear will naturally gravitate toward this and then you can just do whatever you want. Then you can forget the rule. In other words you begin to focus on the chord tones as the main harmonic tones and the rest as passing tones. In fact, passing tones could be chromatic and not even be in the scale.

In any case, it is important to understand modes because it simplifies finding these common scales in a tune and then further simplifies the visualization of chord tones.
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#1280668 - 10/04/09 05:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

As you know, within this scale of let's say 7 notes, the important chord tones are just some of these notes. You must be aware of them and some have more value than others. For example, the 1,3,5,7 of the chord is more important than the 9,11,13. It is actually an advanced concept to think of putting 1,3,5,7 on the downbeats.


Now, what you just said I can understand. And it's a good reason to practice, say, C major as C E G B D F A C, as we discussed (and I've been doing it). But bringing modes into it? Not necessary, as far as I can see.

Because if I'm doing the above example, and improvising over D Dorian, I am not going to play D E F G A B C D C B A G F E D, for obvious reasons.

I can accept that that's how jazzers talk and I need to learn the lingo. I just think it's put in a more complicated way than it needs to, that's all. Or, there's something about it I still don't understand...
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#1280692 - 10/04/09 06:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Online   content
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Yes you are correct. But as you know the textbooks say play D Dorian as D E F G A B C D instead of what I'm saying here which is a step further as D F A C and extend to E G B as necessary. In a sense this is more complicated as we're putting another layer on top of the modes.

Now, mind you, the purpose of this is ear training. In jazz, you learn all the rules, so you learn how to break the rules. In reality I have no problem playing C# or F# in Dm7. But you have to know where and how. In fact, I will make full use of a chromatic scale (all 12) on a Dm7 if need be. However, I will always know to emphasize the major chord tones.

So I just want to be clear that this is not a strait jacket/permanent ban on anything beyond 1/3/5/7 of the chord. It is a training ground to understand that lack of randomness here. True jazz masters do not play at random (just like the Bill Evans video on "Approximation" discusses). An "approximator" will randomly play any note in D Dorian. A master will be aware of the downbeats.
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#1280696 - 10/04/09 06:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
I was listening to a workshop by a Jazz artist and he was talking about the origins of the Bebop scale.

Barb and I have had a discussion of the Bebop scale in this thread and it is the same as a major scale plus a chromatic tone. I remember Barb being exact about the extra 8th note in a bebop scale to be different for the Major scale, vs. the Dominant scale.

In truth, I never really cared where the chromatic note is because it is just a passing tone. The real purpose of the Bebop scale according to him (and I agree), is purely rhythmic. Chromaticism is used as approach notes to give you enough time to land on the appropriate chord tone. It's a trick to have exactly 8 notes and thus be able to land on a chord tone on a downbeat. When I use a bebop type scale, I will use any approach note as a chromatic "extra".

This goes to show how rhythmic jazz is (regardless of Gyro's statements to the contrary). This artist goes to say how it isn't so important what notes you picked but how it fits in the rhythmic framework. It's exactly right.

Often the phrasing (which always has a rhythmic quality) defines how beautiful a line is even though the notes used are finite. In most cases, your options are 4-5 notes per chord. Yet there is so much variety in jazz.

It isn't the notes that are complicated. Never was.
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#1280781 - 10/04/09 08:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
We had an online party today in honor of our leader, Jazzwee. Here is the link:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1280629/1.html

Come relive the fun! yippie
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#1281064 - 10/05/09 08:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

So I just want to be clear that this is not a strait jacket/permanent ban on anything beyond 1/3/5/7 of the chord. It is a training ground to understand that lack of randomness here. True jazz masters do not play at random (just like the Bill Evans video on "Approximation" discusses). An "approximator" will randomly play any note in D Dorian. A master will be aware of the downbeats.


I remember previously when I was improvising of Autumn Leaves, it was the point where I tried to put in quavers and be aware of downbeats - that was where I lost the plot.

This is having taken a step backward and limiting myself to crochets and rests, also trying not to move around too much:

http://www.box.net/shared/vj1gle6bqs

Would this count as 'honest' for Bill Evans, do you think?
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#1281159 - 10/05/09 11:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Online   content
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That's honest TLT smile Good job.

Now next time give a little extra focus on the third, and then you can always add the 7th going to the 3rd (voice leading thing). Begin by having the 3rd sound as the 1st note in the chord.

This is ear training. You need to hear that changing harmony with those simple notes of 3 and 7. Once you get comfortable with that, you'll always know where to find those notes and then you can start to deviate.

Careful here, I remind you to look for ways to make a line cross over a couple of chords. Remember we don't try to start a line on beat 1.

This is part of developing that "honesty" wink

I like the tone of your playing BTW. It sounds more legato and that leads to good swing when you do eighth notes.
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#1281170 - 10/05/09 12:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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TLT, have you tried just doing 7 to 3 for all the chords? You need to really hear that. Do the 7 as a pickup at beat 4+ and then the 3rd at beat 1 (half note).

The concept of soloing is that the harmony is highlighted by the line.

I think I have an exercise in thirds as an MP3 somewhere in the index. Check it out.
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#1281251 - 10/05/09 02:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
TLT, have you tried just doing 7 to 3 for all the chords? You need to really hear that. Do the 7 as a pickup at beat 4+ and then the 3rd at beat 1 (half note).


I'll try it.
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#1281569 - 10/06/09 04:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
hey jazzwee,

getting back to the two handed linear playing, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xacKlTxQ2R8
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#1282028 - 10/06/09 09:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Dave, that's really cool. Although I've watched him do this 2 handed stuff often, this is easy enough to watch to pick up the rhythmic interplay between the hands.

He surely makes himself sound like there's multiple players smile
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#1282029 - 10/06/09 09:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Dave, Apparently Geoff Keezer is a big on 2 handed stuff too. But I haven't found any significant video to show this.
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#1282108 - 10/07/09 12:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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TLT, I've been really busy but I did want to continue with my comment on 3rds (and the point of a 3rds exercise).

If you listen to any jazz solo by a master, or if you transcribe it, you will find that solos have a particular harmonic structure. Some people in the Non-Classical Forum say, it's too structured to be improvisation. Well, the reality is that anyone can improvise with anything. But only those who develop the ear can improvise WELL.

And it's not even that hard. Chords have to be defined in the solo. As you know, all it takes is the interval of 3 and 7 of the chord to state the harmony. Try it out. A chord can be clearly be heard, even without a root, just with the 3rd and 7th of the chord. Thus, solos typically focus on these 2 notes and often the rest of the lines focus on GETTING TO the 3rd and 7th. Actually the 7th becomes the 3rd in a ii-V progression so it's a half step away.

So to hear this, first start with just the 3rd. Then create a solo with just 2 notes per chord. An approach note to the 3rd and then the 3rd itself. You can approach the 3rd from above, below, a fifth away, a fourth away, there's so many possibilities. The 3rd need not occur on Beat 1. It can occur on beat 1,2,3,4.

So learn to get to the third with one approach note. Then 2 approach notes. Then 3 approach notes. But TARGET THE THIRD. Do this with every chord.

What will happen is that the 3rd will be so ingrained in your hearing that from the moment you play the chord, you already know it will be some play on the 3rd.

The Tune All the Things You Are, which I've posted several times, is based on 3rds in the melody. Practically every melody note is a 3rd. Many many tunes have melodies based on 3rds, which show its importance.

I know that in another thread, it was mentioned that solos have no structure. That may be true AFTER YOU HAVE LEARNED TO HEAR.

What we don't want to do is play from memorized finger moves. When the time comes to improvise this method will make you freeze. A solo is like a conversation in your head/ears. We will train those ears to first put a focus on 3rds.

So this is a nice progression from what you've already done which is to pick out the chord tones. That was excellent that you can now do that. Now use those chord tones to get to the third. And then add any other note as an approach to the third. Start from a half step or a step away to be comfortable.

Make lines like 8th+Half Note. Then 8th + Quarter Note. Keep it simple and "honest".

Think of those thirds.
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#1282141 - 10/07/09 01:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
dave solazzo Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

first start with just the 3rd. Then create a solo with just 2 notes per chord. An approach note to the 3rd and then the 3rd itself. You can approach the 3rd from above, below, a fifth away, a fourth away, there's so many possibilities. The 3rd need not occur on Beat 1. It can occur on beat 1,2,3,4.


that's a great way to start!

and like you've said jazzwee, the approach tones are played on the upbeats. and you usually--but not always--resolve to the 3rd--or chord tone--on the downbeat.

you hear this all the time in bebop.


Edited by dave solazzo (10/07/09 02:07 AM)
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#1282146 - 10/07/09 02:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
dave solazzo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 160
Loc: syracuse ny
jazzwee,

yeah, mehldau is great at creating multiple lines in his solos.

did you hear marian mcpartland's piano jazz when mehldau was the guest on the show? he plays "from this moment on" and he gets into the 2 handed thing. it's really nice. he talks a little about it in the interview and the idea of getting multiple voices going together.

it's pretty interesting.
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#1282233 - 10/07/09 08:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: dave solazzo]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Hi gang!

Autumn Leaves, sticking to the 3rd on beat 1, preceded by a pickup note:

http://www.box.net/shared/h5urrm7fh5

What I found with this was it was OK, even easy, if I just concentrated on the 3rd. Get the 3rd on beat 1, with the note above it on 4+. But if I ever started to think about that pickup note as being the 7th of the preceding chord, then my brain went into complete systems failure. I can't think about the 7th of one chord at the same time as thinking about the 3rd of another chord.

So that's one thing. Incidentally, jazzwee, in the Montonu for Monty I posted for the party, I made a point of improvising on 4+ and 1. I just stuck to that rhythm, and put in any old notes.

I also just recorded On Green Dolphin Street (Kaper, arr Richards) from his book:

http://www.box.net/shared/knx7es5af4

I quite like the harmonies in it.

I think (don't quote me) I've now worked out how to use this book. I now ignore most of what he says. He goes into a lot of detail about quite complex improvising, arpeggios up and down the piano. But I just feel like, if I could do that, I wouldn't need a book like this. So I ignore all that stuff.

But, the arrangements are nice, and I do need new material all the time to keep me going and improvising. I get a lot more out of his arrangements than I do out of the fakebook, and it's helping me build up a repertoire of 'tunes that I recognise'. I did that with the ABRSM material - just pick a tune and play it - till I exhausted the book. So now I'll do that with Exploring Jazz Piano, hopefully get through it reasonably quickly, and move on.

I suppose I just needed to give myself permission not to do *all* of the exercises in the book!

I did look at All the Things You Are from the fakebook, and I've made a bit of a start on it, but I need to get my fingers round the harmonies before I can do anything else.
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#1282393 - 10/07/09 11:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
TLT, do you see (hear) what happens with that 3rd exercise? Without even trying to solo, you CANNOT make it not sound good. So you see why this is always central to a solo to always be aware of the third.

Now in real playing, the third need not occur at any particular beat. But it does get used quite often. This is VERY HONEST playing smile But try to be conscious (at least during this ear training period) of how to integrate the 3rd into the melody. Most melodies are heavy on 3rds.

I know this sounds almost mathematical and someone will say that this is too structured. But it is a fact. And it is true in Classical music or any other music. Our ear is drawn to this structure.

When playing around with the third as central to the structure, try arpeggiating TO THE THIRD, and STEPPING TO THE THIRD (half step or step). Just hear this in your head and know how to get there.

Again I emphasize that I was taught these rules as I teach you. BUT once you know the rules, later on you will know how to break them. This is just ear training. By no means does this dictate what you should play later on. Although, I guarantee that any good solo will have a bunch of thirds in it.

Dave is right that approach notes + 3rds is very common in bebop.
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