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#1011160 - 03/14/08 01:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
I did notice that sometimes the piano was "up-front" and bright while at other times just in the background and one of the other instruments wer "up-front". It sounded to me that only the base was kept constent in the backgound. I actually recognized by hearing it the same 7th/3rd chords on several of the piano "up-fronts" (I don't know what else to call them) you had us playing way back when.
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#1011161 - 03/14/08 02:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
The bass provides the rhythmic structure together with the drums plus the bass sets the harmonic structure as well so they are designed to play consistent legato quarter notes most of the time. You will find this in most of jazz.

If you ever do your own recording of a bass line, you will need to follow this. I discuss walking bass lines in a lesson and I discuss this very same thing (legato and accenting 2 and 4).
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#1011162 - 03/14/08 06:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Rosa, that was great! You've been working hard on this and it is really starting to show. Keep it up.

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#1011163 - 03/15/08 01:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Barb, jazzwee, rintincop and deeluk....thanks for your interest and listening PLUS feedback.

Rintincop your 2 cents is worth a million. Once I get comfy with these chords, I will have more freedom to accelerate and do wave like motions. Love those descriptions there.

Jazzwee, I'll start looking into the voiceless lessons.

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#1011164 - 03/15/08 03:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
For those of you who are interested in transcriptions of Keith Jarrett, I found the following link:

http://www.keithjarrett.org/transcriptions/

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#1011165 - 03/15/08 07:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Rosa,
I just had a chance to hear your ballad version of ATTTYA. Excellent job! I played it a second time just to enjoy it more. You should feel proud!
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#1011166 - 03/15/08 10:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Rosa - That is a very cool KJ link. Thanks so much for passing it on.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011167 - 03/15/08 11:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Thanks Woody for your kind comments. Yes, I am proud of this thread. I never thought Jazz could be EZ to learn until NOW. It used to be all greek to me.

Barb, that is a cool link cuz it contains a lot of pdf files for you to download to print out w/o doing your own transcriptions.

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#1011168 - 03/16/08 08:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi everyone,

Here is my latest work on AL.

http://www.box.net/shared/ok0d2o1cso

Rosa gave me the incentive to start putting the song together. Over the past 2 days, I voiced the song - using LH rootless and color tones under the RH melody. I learned how to work with color tones from the Sudnow Method.

This morning I began learning what I had voiced. Just to break up the monotony of the learning process, I started with the bridge. You will hear the last 16 measures - bridge to the end.

Jazzwee, Rintincop, (Chris too, if you are through burping the baby) - feedback and suggestions please. I am unsure if those upbeat accents are appropriate in a ballad style version.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011169 - 03/16/08 11:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb, that sounded great! Now I hear you doing those little runs. Why aren't you using those in a medium tempo solo? They are great sounding.

Especially at this tempo, you can do Rubato on the melody and speed it and and slow it down in relation to the constant beat. This will make it more interesting.

Love your voicings BTW!
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#1011170 - 03/16/08 01:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee - Thank you for the feedback. I do have a few questions.

My metronome is set to 65 bpm – If you listen closely, you will hear it clicking away softly. So, when you say to Rubato on the melody while keeping the beat, I’m assuming that the beat will stay at 65 bmp and I am to DRAG the melody. Is that correct? For some reason, I thought that Rubato playing means that the beat will actually slow down.

Also, I do a 16th note descending chromatic run on beats 2-4 of the GMaj7. I am counting in my head 2e&ah, 3e&ah, 4e&ah. If I wanted to accent in the swinging style, what part of the beat or beats get the accent? Should it be the “e” and the “ah” OR the “&”?

You ask why I’m not using these little runs while improvising. Gotta smile. – I worked out these little runs note by note. It’s a bit different thinking at the moment while trying to improvise. Of course, you know that. You also know that’s why I’m here. \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011171 - 03/17/08 01:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
\:\) Nice going Barb. Keep up the good work.

Rosa

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#1011172 - 03/17/08 02:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb, yes the true meaning of Rubato is robbing time and paying back the time so in the end it is equal.

Sometimes you speed up, sometimes you slow down. I'm just making you think of varying the actual playing for a nice tension and release effect. Dragging raises tension and when you restore the time it gets released. If you listen to singers like Frank Sinatra, they do this a lot in ballads. In a lot of ways, the piano player seeks to emulate the human voice so we try to hide the percusiveness of the instrument with ploys like this.

When I play ballad solo piano, I keep to a beat and I don't speed it up or slow it down. I could probably do it with a metronome. Rubato is temporary and you relieve the tension by going back to the beat. So one needs to play in the pocket even in ballad playing. Strange concept but true.

Also, ballad playing in jazz is not that easy. At slower speeds, you'll have to be playing sixteenth notes (which will swing like eighth notes usually). It's harder to fill the space since you need to use more notes per measure.

Initially one relies on arpeggios and things but in the end it is still about improvisation in jazz. A jazz pianist doing ballads is not the same as "cocktail piano" with meandering and repeating arpeggios. The same lessons for improvising applies.

Hope that gives you a big picture of all this.
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#1011173 - 03/17/08 07:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Hope that gives you a big picture of all this. [/b]
Jazzwee - You described that picture beautifully. Thank you. I've been practicing the same 16 measures this morning - playing in the pocket. It's a good feeling. I do keep the metronome on so the LH keeps that steady beat.
BTW - I'm still on the good old Bill Evans arp exercise. I'm inching up the metronome little by little. LH rootless is still clunking down on beat 1.

Rosa - Thank you. Remember, I'm following you, girl. Onward we go! \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011174 - 03/18/08 01:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
BTW Barb, don't always practice slow. The fingering and movements of fast playing are completely different. So find a way to play lines fast. For example, bring Donna Lee up the metronome to higher and higher tempos. Do the Diminished scales as sixteenth notes. What you're doing with the cautious metronome approach is fabulous too so just vary it so you're burning the candle at both ends \:D
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#1011175 - 03/18/08 09:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Jazzwee- When I accent those offbeats, I can do the dim scales at 140 bpm - which means I am playing 8th notes. To play those 16th notes, the metronome goes down to 90 and I am NOT able to accent at that speed.
So, re: 16th notes - what's your advice? Should I not worry about those accents, and just play fast to get those fingers working?

I do have a few fast runs in my repertoire that I practice daily - no accents, though. Donna is at 140 - offbeat accents, but no left hand.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011176 - 03/18/08 11:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb, accenting is not necessary at higher speeds, at least not in this context. Accenting is done more to phrases (which is another layer over swing accents).

At higher tempos, most players do not have swing. There are exceptions (Bill Evans, Jarrett, Wynton Kelly to name a few). But generally, it is played straight. I usually focus on evenness at this point and maintaining legato which is pretty hard when going very fast.

One thing to practice is switching from fast sixteenths to swinging eight notes all in the same phrase.

Also, to clarify, once you slow down the tempo, like 70bpm for ballads, then I would say sixteenths are expected to swing. In essence they are at the speed of eighth notes.

As a long term goal, shoot for 16ths (eventually) at 240-300bpm. Unless you can do sixteenths at this speed then pretty much stay away from sixteenths since there will be no occasion to play them. Sixteenths are played more as short accents for most of us. Only the most advanced players can actually solo with sixteenths and do it well (Oscar Peterson...).

Sixteenths aren't really the core of jazz playing (again unless you're at ballad speed). But it does offer some variety on occasion. Swinging eighth notes are still the core of jazz.
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Piano 88
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#1011177 - 03/18/08 11:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Gotcha, Jazzwee . Thank you.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011178 - 03/19/08 08:48 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Just for a change of pace from practising, today I thought I'd try to voice another song.

This is Misty:

http://www.box.net/shared/umbhye1gcc

I did mostly 1 5 9 on the LH and sometimes 1 7.

jazzwee, I played it slow, and if you can, can you check to see if my fingers are heading in the right direction?

Also for the dominants the b9 sounds good, so should I try to incorporate those b9s on the LH?

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#1011179 - 03/19/08 11:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Very nice Rosa! I'm sure the rest of the gang will enjoy it. You did a great job

Have you read the section/lesson on Rootless voicings yet? There's discussion there of what color tones to use for some of these chords that would raise the jazziness up a notch or two.

Yes b9 is good on dominants. Sometimes you'll want something else (b9, #9, 13, or b13, etc.) At the very least, do 9 and 13 on Dominants and Major 7ths. At least 9 on every Minor sevenths and 11ths too.

Sometimes a combination of bass, then pedal to the rootless chord will allow you to play some of these color tones. This can be a process of fun discovery.

As I get into more advanced levels of jazz, I find more and more that there are no set rules. You learn the basics and then you abandon them to discover new things. And it's never ending.

One of the reasons you want to apply some rootless chords is to improve the thought process for voice leading and keeps you more in one spot. Misty by nature is always jumping everywhere because of the melody though. But at least the rootless chords will give you ideas about voicing some of the color tones since they will be mostly in a clustered position.

Read the discussion of modern stride as applied to rootless and how some of that can be applied here.

Have fun!
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Piano 88
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#1011180 - 03/19/08 12:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Thanks Jazzwee. I started looking at the rootless voicing lessons. I notice that the 7 always come before the 9 in that cluster voicings.

So I am wondering the way I am playing is:
LH 1 5 9 and RH playing the 7

So if I flat the 9 of the LH without a 7 underneath, does it sound strange?

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#1011181 - 03/19/08 01:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Very nice Misty, Rosa. It is hard to keep up with you \:D
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011182 - 03/19/08 01:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
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1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1011183 - 03/19/08 04:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Rosa, If you are trying to get into rootless voicings, why don't you start with AL rather than Misty. Jazzwee laid out all of the voicings for that. You can do melody in the RH, and rootless in the LH. It's a real slow go at first, trust me.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011184 - 03/19/08 04:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Thanks Jazzwee. I started looking at the rootless voicing lessons. I notice that the 7 always come before the 9 in that cluster voicings.

So I am wondering the way I am playing is:
LH 1 5 9 and RH playing the 7

So if I flat the 9 of the LH without a 7 underneath, does it sound strange? [/b]
Hi Rosa, normally for better voice leading, you'd use 3 or 7 as the bottom of the rootless. Think of the 7 going down to 3 in a ii-V sequence.

There are exceptions to this but this is the basis of a standard voicing.

As far as what Ritincop says, I personally don't play with a lot of Rubato myself or even if I do it is still within the confines of strict time. I'm been taught that way and that's more consistent with the jazz way of playing. It allows for improvisation later on that free form "cocktail" style playing doesn't really allow. I've withheld my comments on that since each makes their own musical choices.

Again, let me reiterate that Misty itself is not a tune that I would do rootless on because the melody moves all over the place. My point in bringing up rootless to you is for you study the color tones in rootless and see how you can add those extra tones into this particular tune, even while you play it rooted. For example, on the RH, when you're playing a 3rd, you can play 9+3 below the melody, or add a 13, etc. Experiment with it.

Rootless chords itself, as used in a combo setting is best practiced with the examples given for AL for now since it takes awhile to absorb it so it is automatic. You can see that Barb and Deeluk have been working hard trying to apply it so it occurs without thinking on the LH.

In solo piano playing, this rootless is integrated with some bass note playing in a version of Modern stride and allows the LH to function as 2 hands, thus freeing up the RH to do improvisation.
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#1011185 - 03/20/08 12:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Thanx Barb, rintincop and jazzwee for your interests to help me improve. Really appreciate all comments and suggestions.

Actually I am trying to put in the rootless voicings in the Autumn Leaves song. But I was working on the theory of Advanced Rootless Chord Voicing Part 2 -- trying to work out that rootless voicings using the formula that jazzwee provided: mainly with the 7ths and the 3rds at the bottom and stacking the 9ths and 13ths on top.

But today, I noticed that in Part 3 lesson, Jazzwee laid out the simplified method for us with all the notes provided. I also see the advantage of the Part 3 where the voice leading comes into play where only one note moves in 2-5 situation.

So do we do Part 2 or Part 3 or both?

Also I want to do the Modern stride.
So for each measure - the LH hit the bass note on beat 1, and the LH goes up near the middle C to do that cluster rootless cluster chord, is that right? Do I hit the rootless voicing at 3 or at the + of 2?

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#1011186 - 03/20/08 01:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
I am using a separate post to share this and see if you guys can give me some feedback \:\) .

The reason why I am trying other songs is that eventually I really want to be able to play many standards in weddings and hotels lounge particularly in cocktail style.

I know some songs are esp good for improving our jazz skills like AL and ATTTYA. So I'll keep doing these and learn to improvise over them with jazz vocab.

At the same time, wonder whether you guys think it is a good idea to use those simple methods of applying 3rds, 7ths, 9ths, 13ths....and voice them into new songs and play them like what I have done to Misty. In this way we can build a large repertoire of songs, maybe not so sophisticated as AL or ATTAYA (if we eventually study this...) but we can have a few good songs on hand to play with.

I am thinking of trying other songs like: My Romance, Fly Me to the Moon, All Of You, Over the Rainbow, Christmas Song, When I fall in love, As Time goes by or maybe Jazzwee can suggest a list of songs for us to try at our level?

I am having a blast voicing out new songs and playing them. There is no need to memorize any fingerings at all and I can play this song within the same day and not to have to wait for weeks.

Do you guys also know of any piano instructional books that teach cocktail style of playing & techniques? Right now, I have Suds program & Simon Schoot Play Piano by Ear which gives a lot of good tips.

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#1011187 - 03/20/08 06:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Woody-Woodruff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 615
Loc: Coastal Mississippi
Rosa,
I'll try a response to your questions. Regarding the stride, yes what you have described is correct to start with. There are several alternatives to the Root/Base at the beat 1 of the measure, but what you describe will definitely work for a start. The actual following chord can be anything from a straight forward 1, 3, 5, 1 to a fully Jazz voiced rootless chord. That is your choice and how you want the song to sound.

What everyone has been doing on this thread is to expose and lead anyone who would like to learn jazz to actually do it. Step by step. My guess is the Jazzwee may still have some significant additions to this thread. Here's what I think is the important thing, this thread is a learning experience. It adds to your playing ability. Is there anything wrong with a Jazzy sounding cocktail style piano?

I have never heard of a cocktail style instruction book, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Post the question on here on ABF and you might get a few additional recommendations.

As for additional songs to work on? Try "150 Most Beautiful Songs" book. I got mine at amazon.com. Get the binder type since it's a large book, it will stay flat on your piano desk. It has a good selection of songs for cocktail piano. Also read the "lounge lizard" thread in ABF for any additional pointers.

Most important, keep playing!!!!
_________________________

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#1011188 - 03/20/08 09:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Rosa - Another Piano World Forum - specifically "Pianist Corner - Non Classical" may be a good place to post your question.

Also, check out Sudnow's download on rootless and stride. It has everything you need regarding those left hand voicings.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011189 - 03/20/08 10:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Hey guys. Just wanted to check in here since it's been a while. Rosa and Barb, I love what I've been hearing from you guys. The stride-rootless stuff sounds great. And Rosa, you're tearing up those new tunes so fast. It's good to see and hear that it has been relatively straightforward for you to take what we've learned on AL and apply it to other songs.

For me, this arpeggio exercise is really kicking my butt. I'm finding it really difficult to keep up with a constant stream of eighths. The only time I can really sustain it over a few chord changes is if I precompose a pattern. And even then, it sometimes falls apart. I have a hard time hearing the changes while I'm arpeggiating. I suppose it is because I am having to focus so much on the arp itself. But if I do manage to realize when I should be changing chords, I cannot find the next arp quick enough to keep up.

I have a new appreciation for this Bill Evans style. Not that I thought it was easy to begin with...

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