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a fascinating thread! thanks to everyone, especially jazzwee, for putting this together.

i'm late to the party, and after reading the entire thread i feel kind of overwhelmed. jazzwee, what is your prescription for attacking this, i.e. first learn AL with 1/7 shells, then start on soloing, or instead go to 1/7 and 1/3 then learn the rhythm, then soloing, etc.? it will seem more manageable taken in steps.

Jazzwee and AL Gang,


We understand you perfectly. The best teachers are those who are able to sift through their learning and bring out the GEM. And that's what you are doing.

While I know the 1357 of chord tones and the downbeats and the step wise and half step movement, I am not aware of the different ways of doing the arps with the repeated notes. They do sound good w/o taking too much brain power.

Jazzwee, before I download the pdf version, I have the jazz improvisation for keybaord players (complete edition) by Dan Haerle -- do you recommend following this one?

Also have you seen this free jazzlesson on bebop improvisation.

http://www.jazzpianoonline.com/improvisationtheconcept.html

Rosa

Jazzwee - RE: Lesson 11.

After having fun with Chord Tones this morning, I went on to stepwise moves.

That B7b9 is drivng me crazy
I keep wanting to play C# rather than C. That C# has been ingrained into my fingers for a B7 and it is rebelling big time.

So - should I:
1. put the metronome to a very, very slow speed and make my fingers play that C natural
OR
2. Play the C#

Hey tm3 - welcome to the party!

Here is my recording back to Lesson 3 Style B with RH swing and LH Charleston (Hopefully getting closer)

http://www.box.net/shared/a00c6pzr4w


Rosa

Welcome TM3. No need to feel overwhelmed. I was a late comer too. Just reading the thread is overwhelming but once you follow from one lesson to another and hand in your midis, I found it so EZ to pick up. Before I knew it, I was onto solo. But I am still doing those early lessons alongside, like lesson 3 now.

Take it slow TM3. You're not that far behind. Most everyone started only a month ago. Lesson 1 is the place to start.

But soloing can begin immediately after. The rhythm is harder to figure out if it is new so you can always just add it in slowly. Nothing wrong with soloing without rhythm first.

Good luck tm3.

Forward Motion is a very specific explanation and is very unique. It can work with other books. It is not really beginner's level but I think everyone here can handle it.

For so little money it's excellent information.

Hi Barb, AL aside why is there a C# in your B7b9? How do you actually voice a B7b9?

B7b9 is actually the same as a Cdim. So the notes are C Eb Gb A. So 7b9 chords = Dim chord a half step up.

A B7 doesn't have a C# either unless your specific memorized voicing uses it. That may be the issue is you're using memorized voicings. Something that would break as you use shells or 2+2 voicings discussed earlier.

It took awhile but now I'm able to see the intervals immediately and no longer rely on memorized voicings. And it came from using alternate voicings.

I haven't really discussed this yet but the scale for B7b9 is:

Half-Whole Diminished
B C D D# F F# G# A

For F#m7b5 it is:

Diminished Whole Tone
F# G# A B C D E

You may need to slow it down with a metronome like Barb said earlier. You're playing 1, 2, 2.

Gotta count 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & when doing this

Good luck!

The problem stemmed from doing lots of dominant scale practice for several months last year. I would fly through that B7 scale with my C#.

OKAY - slow that metronome and put in that b9.

Thank you for that great explanation regarding those diminished scales.

Apparently, I was counting 1 2 3 4 for my RH swing but that doesn't work too well for the LH because for LH I need to count 1+2+...etc. Now I know where the problem is.

Jazzwee for lesson 3A&3B, you said that for solo we will use the 3B style more. When will I find occasion to use the 3A style then?

I am interested in playing the cocktail style and you said we could arpeggiate the 3 notes slowly on the LH. (1, 7, 10 or 1, 5, 10). I can do 1 5 10 as the fingering is easier. Is it better to arpeggiate 1 7 10 to get the 7 in the LH?

What will be the rhythm of that LH arpeggiating?

Rosa

I've downloaded the pdf book. It is very interesting & good exposure to build up our skill. It also has audio sounds to go with it.

Rosa, LH Arpeggiation in a solo piano style would be all on the downbeats and would be played Rubato. Whether to use 1 7 10 or 1 5 10 is up to your reach and also which note you're playing. Apparently you have long fingers as I can only do limited tenths (white notes only). So this is not something I do often.

If Ritincop is reading this perhaps he can give a better answer.

3A is 1/7-1/3 fingering for ii-V which is used in a later lesson on Comping (Lesson 9?). I you're playing a solo on the RH or doing arpeggiations, then the LH, would just stick to 1/7's as in 3B, because 3A needs help of the RH.

OK. I went back to the beginning pages and ploughed through the posts and could not find the answers to the following 2 questions:

1. To do the 1/7 and 1/3 shell on LH, is there a strict rule that 1/7 has to be the minor chord and the 1/3 shell has to be the V7 chord? Or we just feel our way through what is comfortable when we make the changes?

2. I remember reading somewhere Jazzwee talks about cocktail improvisation with an easy RH shape using 3 5 9 easily but I can't find what that handshape is.

Rosa

1/7 to 1/3 is specifically a voice leading approach for ii-V chord progressions using Shell voicings. So is it a strict rule? No since there are alternatives but it is a popular motion using shells because it has less hand motion than a strict 1/7 at all times.

Solo piano using the 2+3 voicings (which are 2 on LH and 3 on RH), is where you'll find reference to 3 5 9 on the RH. These are comping chords. However they can be mixed in with solo piano.

In the Lesson on Rootless voicings, that is also used in Solo piano style by hitting a bass note, then the rootless voicing higher up (modern stride version).

Lately when I play solo piano, let's say of AL, I would mix the following styles within one tune:

1. Shell 1/7's, with the melody and soloing
2. Rootless Voicings with occasional bass (typically once every two measures on AL).
3. In between melody notes, I'd also do 2+3

The only style I personally don't do much anymore is walking bass in solo piano.

I don't do this much but as another approach over what's been mentioned, you could play the melody using 1 5 8 on the RH for each note. Ritincop is an expert on this sound and is used a lot Red Garland.

Let me expand on what I do when I play shell voicings for solo piano (i.e. what I'm referring to as #1 above.

I don't actually just play 1/7 on the LH and my RH has more than the melody or solo line.

I will make the LH play 1/5/7 or 1/3/7 (and you can mix 1/10 here too but due to strain, I don't use it a lot). So I have a fairly full sound on the LH. I might mix in arpeggiation or just straight chord playing of the shells.

On the RH, I want to make sure the 3rd is always voiced so it is often on the fingers 1 and 2 of my RH. If 3rd is already voiced and I have an extra finger I will typically play the 9th too, particularly with minor chords (so b3 and 9 on my 1st two fingers). I do a lot of this with the tune My Romance. Very jazzy effect because of the dissonant interval.

If I'm doing a line on the RH, you can sometimes squeeze in the extra chord tones during a quiet moment in the melody or solo for effect. So if I have not been playing the 3rd, I'd insert it in between. Often I will also withhold the inner voices on the LH and play only the root and the top note and then syncopate the middle voices in the middle. Hard to explain but it makes the tune sound like it's in 2/4 instead of 4/4 with the middle voices going in later in the measure.

This is not a lesson description so it is not well thought out but this is a little summary of the stuff I've learned to do.

Thanks jazzwee for your explanation. Telling me your thought process is as good as those well-thought out lessons. My direction is very clear now. I have not gone to rootless voicings yet but I want to try out cocktail improvisation because that is something I want to master.

Rosa

Rosa, jazz improvisation in solo piano isn't really "cocktail" piano especially with all these sophisticated jazz voicings. Let's refer to it as jazz ballad playing. I play like this all the time and I love it because when you slow down the tempo, you can really work on sixteenth note runs. Something that doesn't get much play in medium swing.

As an exercise, we should all play solos in ballad tempo, with Rubato time to see if you get different ideas when you slow it down. Doing ballads well is actually quite challenging, which is why it is fun to do.

Can you guys believe that someone just blasted the rating on our thread and my own rating?

Did we bash anyone on this thread? Did we attack anyone? Or is it someone who just doesn't like jazz? Speak up whoever you are!

What a weasely thing to do. Here's a thread without a word of disagreement from anyone, it's purpose completely to help people and some childish person rates it down to make a point.

THERE'S NO POINT IF YOU DON'T SPEAK UP.

I am in complete shock here, jazzwee. I have been a member of ABF for 2 years and until this thread came about, I had posted a total of 14 times. Since I joined up with this thread a few weeks ago, my post count has jumped to 61, I am that excited.

This thread is THE BEST THING going on in ABF. You are doing a remarkable service for all of us who have always wanted to learn jazz, but never knew how to begin.

I agree, it was some childish person. And I thought this was a forum for adults.

BTW, How is a thread rated? I assumed it was strictly by the amount of daily traffic.

Jazzwee, you are the greatest!

at the bottom of this page to the left you'll find a "Rate it!" drop-down menu.

Thanks Chris.

To All - check out this KJ video:

http://www.pcplanets.com/videoyoutube-Keith-b-Jarrett-b-.KiWchoEo2Vw.shtml

I grinned ear to ear as I watched it - my heart started beating faster. Jarrett at his best. Such fun to watch and listen to.