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Thanks Barb. So many new, neat things to learn!

Hi xcal! Glad to have you visit. Just ask the questions and we will answer.

Nice done! I give my 1st post here!

Jazzwee, thanks for the welcome and for inviting me to ask questions. I have a couple:
1) I listened to the swing-time versions of the al-scale examples. They sound good to me - it sounds like jazz; but I don't hear an accent on the offbeat. I hear the accent on the beat. When I listen to your swingA sample though, I do hear the accent on the offbeat (&). Is my elderly ear fooling me? This is really important to me. When I sit down and mess around with the blues (it's easy to play bad-sounding blues, I think: "oh, I'm really smokin'". But then I record myself and I think "man, that's awful. I should take up photography or something". I think a lot of it is poor rhythm (including accents and phrasing). BTW, I tried accenting the offbeats (&) in the AL-scale - difficult (if I'm understanding correctly); much practice will be required (if I'm hearing samples correctly.
2) Why don't I see Rintincop's posts?

xcal,

Are you talking about just the melody of AL? Be careful with over analyzing that without wading through the content.

When playing the melody, the accenting applies only to EIGHTH Notes. Quarter notes are played short and detached. The melody of AL is mostly quarter notes so there's not much opportunity to apply accenting there.

Now there are soloing examples and that's where you should distinctly hear the accents. There were plenty of youtube examples as well if you look at the swing links.

Accenting is difficult at first. Accenting is linked to rhythm/time actually. Mastery of rhythm will lead to control of accents. This is why this is technically difficult and it will take time. Developing awareness of accents and it's application is the first step. Once you are aware of such things as accents and dragging, your eyes will open and you will feel this rush of understanding when you listen to the masters play.

The beginner's limitation is that he doesn't hear this yet.

Re: Ritincop's posts - perhaps he deleted his posts.

Riddler,

I too agree that over-analyzing swing may not work.

There's an easier way. Pick up a Louis Armstrong, sing over it, play over it. He is the inventor of swing after all. (it's also far less technical that later cornet/trumpet player).

I myself, no matter how many times you explain to me do not understand the offbeat onbeat thing. I simply don't get it.

Alternatively, Wynton Kelly has many recordings of AL. He plays the head with limited embellishment. Just play over that.

In my opinion, forget the theory ...

(theory is good for voicings and such)

The other advice I'd have for you, is to redo the same AL, like jazzwee said, with only RH.
And sing as you play.
I'd be curious to hear you record just that. You know, just the head, play and say (bah-doo).

take care --

No, I'm talking about the scale exercise, lesson 8. We're to do two versions: straight and swing. If I understand the swing version correctly, we're to accent the (&), the offbeat. This is difficult, and for me, it's going to take lots of practice to get it down. My swing sounds like:
http://www.box.net/shared/eladihgooc
That's the example of incorrect swing Jazzwee put up. But, in terms of "accenting", the lesson 8 exercise should sound like:
http://www.box.net/shared/cmgedcy88c
the example of good swing Jazzwee put up. Am I making any sense? In lesson 8, I understand the left hand rhythm and accents, but it's the R.H. offbeat accents I'm asking about.

xcal,

This is an edit. I'm redoing my original response since I misunderstood you. The first time.

Most beginners swing as in the first example. This is because the common understanding of swing is limited to "Long-Short, Long-Short", "Long-Short" when playing eight notes. This has a corny sound and you will not find jazz masters playing in this manner. It sounds almost machine like.

Typically, a long-short is a 70/30 ratio when comparing pairs of eight notes.

If you actually listen to the masters play, they don't focus as much on the long-short ratio but more on the accents. Some players like Lennie Tristano will play close to 50/50. Wynton Kelly might go from 60/40 to 50/50 and everything else in between.

So my lesson here is to move from focusing on the extreme long-short swing ratio but more on accents. And keep closer to 50/50 than to 70/30. In other words, we need to deemphasize the oompah-oompah sound.

Where one needs to focus on are the accents. It's the accents that give the propulsion to the jazz sound because the offbeat accent is what balances against the strength of the downbeat. And this is actually what gives the most authentic swing.

So forget about Long-Short. That will come naturally and will vary by the player you are trying to emulate. Put the focus on accents. In jazz, the offbeats are of bigger importance, both rhythmically and even note selection.

I'd better revise that example as I have come know Finale a bit better.
The actual idea is to play the exercise in many different ways, it's a bear necessities score.
When playing it "swing" the idea is to play with a triplet feel doo-DAAH, doo-DAAH, with the accent on the off-beat. But to many accents can be the undoing of a solo. But as an exercise it's something different, it's to build muscle memory, knowledge of leading tones (in the right hand the guide tones are third to seventh.)
Another important aspect of this sort of etude is to create holes, space; i.e play 2 bars, keep two bars empty, play two bars, etc. Do it again and this time rest 2 bars, play 2 bars, etc. Or as I write, mix your own playing with the etude. It's by making one's own decisions that you learn how to find your own voice.

*) bear is not a typo, Bear Necessities a great song from the Jungle Book

Hey Chris, good to see you're still checking in.

As I look back now at my swing example, Chris' point is well made. As an exercise, it sounds weird to make a sequence of alternating accents over a long sequence of notes since that's not the way we play in real life. In real live playing those stretches are short and interspersed with space AND different length notes.

So to reiterate Chris' comments, the example is clearly to have a beginner develop muscle memory on accents.

BTW - my teacher, who is a well known "modern jazz" player, taught me to demphasize the triplet feel in addition to talking about accents. This is a stylistic choice though. Bill Evans played closer to triplet feel.

Thanks Jazzwee and Chris. I'm think I'm beginning to get the idea. Sorry for being obtuse. I'll try and work up an exercise 8 sample (in the next few days) and post it for your critical review.

And once again, you guys are great - much appreciated.

For those of you interested in exercises. Here's one based on playing arpeggios holding the top/lead note down and sustaining it as well as changing the chords "it" belongs to.

Here\'s the whole page - pdf.

That's very interesting Chris. Could you elaborate further on how this is applied? I can see you are playing multiple chords but maintaining the top and bottom shared tones.

Well, hmmm, it's an exercise in staying put.
ie: not moving around to much. It's also a teaching tool for learning about pedal-tones (in the top or bottom). I use it also as a finger exercise, playing it slow and holding the top and bottom notes done (as much as possible, it depends on hand size)

The staying put part means also, how to get from one chord to another without going through large leaps.
Sort of closed voicing soloing.

(although this exercise is written 1 bar phrases it can also be played each bar times 4)

Here\'s the same exercise but with LH variations (pdf)

Barb,

Thanks for listening and for the comments.

As to the lurking - actually, I've been posting recordings to the recent piano bars and the recital. They were solo piano recordings of jazz standards, but no improv.

Re the voicings - they are mostly just roots in LH, 3-7 or 7-3 in RH. I'm inclined to stick with a minimalist comping style till I get more experience. I'd like to play shells in LH and 4-note rootless voicings in RH, or voicings in LH and octaves in RH, but I know I'll get carried away and start pounding! The advice I get is: keep it sparse.

What comping does your husband like when he is playing?

BTW, In the actual jam sessions that I'm practicing for, the soloist would probably be a horn player, or the bassist. In Band In A Box, the vibe soloist sounds a lot better than the other soloists so that is what I practice with.

Thanks again,

Ed

Jazzwee,

Thanks for listening, for the compliments, for the insightful comments, and especially for the tips!

I'm especially amazed that you picked up on the way my LH is constricting my RH lines. There's a story. I have had some difficulty finding a good balance between my RH and LH playing. My right hand thinks it is William Faulkner - it just wants to go on and on, starting new phrases the instant it finishes the previous phrases, in an endless stream of notes. My RH really thinks that sounds great, but it is quite alone in that opinion! It’s a habit I’m trying to break. I tried all the usual things they recommend ("think like a horn player - stop to breathe", etc.) Anything I tried worked for a few minutes, but nothing really seemed to stick. Finally, my teacher suggested this approach: Let your RH play two bars, or four bars, then stop and let the LH respond. Call and response, on a strict timetable. Voila! That stuck. So for a while I'm going to work on this habit, then phase back into a less rigid way of combining the RH and LH efforts. Ultimately I want to get away from starting and ending a phrases in any mechanical way.

And of course you're right about my playing always being right on top of the beat. Since I started taking lessons I have gone from being all over the place, WRT the beat, to constantly rushing ahead of the beat, to on top of the beat (on my good days). Progress is slow , but non-negligible!

Some of these issues, especially swing and accents, are really hard to tackle in an internet forum, but I think I will take them up with my teacher.

Thanks again,

Ed

Riddler, it was no big discovery about what I found in your playing since those are traits common to all of us when we started. This actually makes teaching jazz easier than I figured because most of us stray the same way.

In my case, my teacher taught me to have a minimalist LH at the beginning, or no LH at all. I told him that I thought my LH wasn't getting rhythmic training or that my LH was weak.

This is very strange but my LH developed strongly on its own without any special help, just like my teacher said it would. I can't explain it. The only thing I practiced was the usual scales but in playing, my LH mostly played shells for a long time. The key seemed to be that once the RH was more free to go wherever it wanted to go, there is more brain power in reserve to keep an eye on the LH.

My own LH just caught up recently I think.

Gonzalo Rubalcaba playing AL - blazing with sixteenth notes...Hard core...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy_OxEk_w_A&feature=related

Not bad indeed. Prodigious technique, great feel. Though I tend to break out in a rash when AL is played "to" fast.
I much prefer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOaBaGrpL68 and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-3x-dSHKew&feature=related

I'm with you Chris. I prefer it slow. But we've never posted this style of playing before so it offers a contrast. Those are my two favorite versions.