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btw Barb, I've asked three teachers now about dragging and I never get a satisfactory response. There seems to be no specific instruction for this (at least that is beyond what I have come up with on my own). I suppose because they rely on instinct after developing very solid time.

However, I think this is specifically a good thing to work on because I feel that dragging raises the tension level and playing on the beat releases it. This is also why I think dragging is not a constant value (just like swing is never actually constant).

Hi Gang,

Below is an experimental solo. I have been avoiding speed with these new scales. I decided to take a chance and try soloing at 140 bpm - still slow in the great scheme of things, but fast for me.

http://www.box.net/shared/oeo5p2oo4w

Jazzwee, is much being sacrificed by playing at this speed? I tried to accent correctly and I realize some of those quarter notes should be more detached. Funny how I hear things that I am not pleased with the more I listen and look at the printout.

Would you recommend daily practice at this speed? If not, I'll stick to 110 - 120.

This is a good point Jazzwee. I dragged it throughout the piece just to get that RH dragging effect.

Also I didn't realize I was doing all quarter notes. I thought I put in that 8th legato note there.

Goes to show that when we work on a new thing, the other stuff gets thrown out the window subconsciously.

Barb, what you are doing sounds good to me but I am no expert.

Rosa

Barb, I didn't see anything wrong with doing it at this speed. It's always good to practice faster. I would do both since different parts of the brain are exercised.

What I did notice though as that your fingers are probably driving your solo as you tend to play the same note patterns. Think of a way to break this by introducing something new. How about add some arpeggios in or moving in thirds? Just to jog your brain into a new direction.

One specific area that you can think of alternative lines to is the |Em7 A7|Dm7 G7|
That's a |D Major Scale|C Major scale| there so you've got tons more options than what you're using.

I probably never discussed what scales to use here so good thing this came up.

Think of what's happening here. You're playing the Em/G scale, then it shifts to D scale, then to C scale. You see the whole step progression downwards? Em to D to C? This is a good area to think of the modulations because in a tune like All the Things That You Are, it's brimming with modulations (although not too bad).

Rosa, as I've found, awareness of the problem means it's half solved.

The probable solution is to repractice the specific areas separately:

1. Swing Eights/Accenting
2. LH Charleston
3. RH Phrasing

It's only natural if none of you can do them all together. Who can? Certainly not me at the beginning. But if you can any of them well then it seems to seep in and then eventually you can do it all. It's pretty gradual though.

Think of this. Before this thread, you weren't headed in any specific direction. Now, if you continue practicing these items you will all succeed. It's already proven by short term results.

One thing I'd suggest though is as you all get into practicing solos, is to study another tune at the same time aside from AL. It could be another simple Standard or Blues. Or A-Train, On Green Dolphin Street, Days of Wine and Roses, Blue Bossa.

When you're more confident, the next level of tunes to shoot for are All The Things That You Are, Stella By Starlight. These are much more difficult to solo over but not so bad with a little help. (Another study group?). These tunes can be played with shell LH voicings.

For ballad style playing (ala Bill Evans), some nice target tunes are My Romance and My Foolish Heart. Not easy but can be started with shells and then expanded from there.

Jazzwee - I'm so glad this was brought up. I just discovered that I have been reading the AL chart with a vertical orientation, ( chordwise only) as opoosed to a horizontal orientation (more key oriented).

In lessons 13 and 14, you introduced us to some jazzy scales to be played over chords. I've been looking at the chords and choosing notes for the half dim, or half whole dim scales to fit over the chords. So, when I looked at the Em7, A7, Dm7, G7 – I saw them only as separate chords. I wasn't thinking of a specific key that would fit, but rather, which notes would fit each of the chords. That's what has been driving my fingers to do certain patterns that I have used in each solo.

You continue to spot the problems, Jazzwee. You are GOOD!

About Transcribing

I did a little bit of transcription tonight. I rarely do this but this thread has inspired me. Here I am teaching you all this and it made me wonder what some masters actually played.

For those so inclined, it's pretty easy to do this using a program called "Transcribe!". You can slow it down and it's pretty much impossible to miss a note. You do have to figure out what chord you're on which may hard for beginners.

In any case, I transcribed a few measures of Bill Evans and several of Jarrets. I don't have a notation software so I just wrote the notes down as letters. But this is just for me.

What I found with these two masters is a very strict adherence to chord tones on downbeats. And let me add that they're just using the diatonic chords for the most part. Where it get's exciting is all the chromatic passing tones in between.

I did not see them use Half-Whole Diminished or Alt scales. The Half Dim scale was used though. The Dominant 7 frequently used the b9, which is part of the Half-Whole Diminished scale but they really don't extend beyond that.

But using the chromatic passing tones in between really bring the sound really far out. It's cool. Some of it's hard to pick out by ear because the sounds aren't diatonic. I'm pretty good with the ears but some of Jarret's stuff was unexpected with these chromatic passing notes. These are the simple examples BTW.

Here's a snippets from Jarrett (I bolded chord tones and these are transposed to G/Em).

Am7

G G# A B C B C

CMaj7
B A G F E

Am7

E D# E F# G

I just picked a few out to make a point. They're all like this. Chord tones on the downbeat.

Bill Evans on the other hand played AL more using a arpeggiated chord pattern. Since he starts a line on the + of a beat, he will deliberately start an arpeggio many times on the 9 or the 13.

Here's the opening line to his AL version on Youtube (again transposed to our key of G/Em).

Am7

G E G E A E

The way he does it here is he starts with G with is the 9 of Am7. But it starts on the pickup so E is actually the chord tone.

A typical pattern of Evans is to arpeggiate from 3 to the 9 (3, 5, 7, 9). And then reorganize the order so that he plays the 9 on the upbeat.

A lot can be learned by transcribing. I haven't done much of it myself. But it is often said that transcribing is useful only when you do it yourself. For that reason, I'm not going to post an actual notated transcription, and I didn't record it with sufficient detail anyway.

This tells us that it isn't that the lines on the downbeats are complex. As we said since the beginning, they're just the 1,3,5,7 of the chord. What makes it pretty is how they're connected by the non-chord tones/non-scale notes which gives it an 'outside' feel at moments.

The newer scales we use nowadays (HW diminished, Alt, Whole Tone) were frequently used during Coltrane's time and sounds more 'outside'. And this is a much newer sound than what we hear from Evans.

This just proves there are multiple approaches to improvising and as shown here one can improvise on a simple concept of chord tones on downbeats and neighbor tones at other times.

Jazawee, I love those sounds that come out.


I have a question regarding this one:

Am7

D C# D F# G

I understand the G downbeat as that is the 7 of Am7.

But what about the D? That is the 4th and not in the 1,3,5,7? How does that work because I thought we are supposed to avoid the 4th on the downbeat. Or maybe there is just something that has not clicked for me yet.

Rosa

Rosa, sorry that's just a mistake when I transposed. It's E. It's supposed to be
5 b5 5 6 b7

Also the 4th is an avoid note on Maj 7 chords. It is NOT an avoid note on Min7 chords or Dom7 chords. If you play a 4th as a chord tone (not in Jarrett's case) on an Am7, you're in fact substituting a D7sus4 instead of Am7 which is actually a good substitution and very consonant (although not particularly tense). It is used a lot in Rock Music.

This is why downbeat chord tones are used to communicate the harmonics. By playing chord tones inconsistent with the original chords on the downbeat you are in fact suggesting a different chord (like when using HW Diminished, or Alt). This can be used to good effect to raise tension, or it could just sound harmonically incorrect if it's not intentional.

Jazzwee, that makes sense now. At least your mistake there helped sort out a confusion I often have regarding the 4th tone. I always thought the 4th tone sounded good with the minor 7th and dominant 7th.

Rosa

And just to shake things about a bit . . . here's some weekend fun
Here's a couple of sections (the first 2 choruses) from Keith Jarrett's AL solo on Tokyo '96. It's the one that's up on YT. It's really interesting to have a look under the hood at what the masters are doing.

I've transposed it to Em:
pdf

and for those of that want to play it in Gm:
pdf

For those of you with sharp eyes; yes it's correct Jarrett plays a G7(!) instead of GMaj7 in bar 4 (G7 being the Dominant of C makes it ok :-)
Check out the use of leading and chromatic tones, also his way of pausing now and again. And remember to swing!

Btw: excellent work by all!

Me? I'm stuck with music and sound design for a short film, as well as becoming a dad again. (ETA 7 days and counting!).

HI All,

I’ve been listening to Jazzwee’s AL combo. Talk about relaxed playing – WOW.

I practiced my RH and played along with Jazzwee. …overandoverandover…….

Then, with my “combo group”, I tried to add the LH Charleston with it.
I’m trying for that relaxed RH and an on time LH Charleston rhythm. (Wish I could vary my LH pattern as Jazzwee does, but that’s not do-able right now.)

Jazzwee – I know this is going to take lots of practice to get that "Oh so wonderfully relaxed " sound. Am I heading closer here?

http://www.box.net/shared/cio2tz44ks

PS. Chris -- cool solos. Thank you.

A Dad again? How exciting!!!!

Just remember not to put it on the downbeat. I've been practicing incorporating some of Bill Evans and Jarret's ideas into my solo on AL and I'm really noticing when I don't land a chord tone on a downbeat. The sound seems incomplete. So when I eventually post it, you will see it's very hard to do.

I started planning the beat handling like Jarrett and Evans. Since I usually start a line on a + of a beat, I just consciously start it on a NON-Chord tone and it works out more often than not. I'm practicing at 150bpm and it's very hard to hit the chord tones exactly right. And the solution is to give it space. The space allows you to reorient yourself on the beat. And also allows you to synch your swing.

Hey, I struggle through all of this too but hopefully, by laying out my problems (and solutions) it will help you guys out.

Chris thanks for sharing that!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
<strong> HI All,

I’ve been listening to Jazzwee’s AL combo. Talk about relaxed playing – WOW.

I practiced my RH and played along with Jazzwee. …overandoverandover…….

Then, with my “combo group”, I tried to add the LH Charleston with it.
I’m trying for that relaxed RH and an on time LH Charleston rhythm. (Wish I could vary my LH pattern as Jazzwee does, but that’s not do-able right now.)

Jazzwee – I know this is going to take lots of practice to get that "Oh so wonderfully relaxed

Here, I am trying to walk my bass on Autumn Leaves (Lesson 5)

http://www.box.net/shared/yur7neww0k

Rosa

Notes are good Rosa. Just remember that Walking bass is continuous, it's always 1 per quarter and there's no empty space. The best way to learn this is probably record the walking. Then you can add your RH to it.

It's pretty hard to walk and do anything on the RH. But it work great even for a beginner when you're building your own recordings.

So a starting point to learning this is just stick to a memorized bass line like you have here and make sure you can do it without thinking. When the LH is on autopilot then you add the RH, by playing chords first, then melody. Finally, you try simple solos. This is a year project though for most people (just to get started). You seem to have a knack for this so this could be much easier for you.

I did walking bass and then I stopped doing it because it's not in the style of my current teacher so I'd need practice to even start doing it again.

Jazzwee, I didn't realize the walking bass needs to be continuous. I did it in the empty slots when RH is not playing to get the effect of the bass sounds. Is there a reason for this continous pulse or maybe this is a jazz vocab that I need to acquire.

Also thanks for your guidance in approaching this. It doesn't take me long to try out the bass line and probably will be a bit different each time but I get the gist of it. The trick is to get to the leading tone right before the downbeat chord tone and that comes quite easy for me and no need for memorization.

I'll experiment the continuos bassline for another 2 days and see what I come up with.

Rosa

Hi Rosa, the Walking bass simulates a real bass player so it is not intended as a solo piano sound. It's a nice contrast in solo piano because it sounds like the bass player joined you for a moment.

There's another style that's more for solo piano and it uses two chord tones per measure (played legato). Typically it will anticipate the beat a little and that's what gives it the swing.

Kenny Barron, Dave McKenna are some of the stylistic experts on this.