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#1011460 - 08/01/08 12:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Woody-Woodruff:
Jazzwee,
Just listen to your teacher and students - Do it! Never mind this reason or that reason not to do it - just go out and do it! Look, if the guys you are playing Combo with have any talent at all, they'll know how to cover for you and get you back on track. It won't be long and you'll be doing the same for them, but you've got to get out there and try. DO IT!!! [/b]
Too bad we're all spread out all over the country. The next logical step for this thread is for everyone to get together and play together.
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#1011461 - 08/01/08 12:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
 Quote:
knotty, there are jam sessions here but they are intense. Pretty competitive. I'd stay away from those unless I want to be the next Brad Mehldau.
The one I'm talking about here seems pretty informal, more like a karaoke for musicians. The way I look at it, it's one way to dive into it. You come up on stage, you bring a chart, arrangements, whatever, and they follow. You do one tune and then out.
How to get the most of it?
I'd play something simple, something you are very comfortable with. A blues maybe. I'd focus on not overplaying.
I'd bring a friend and ask him to record. 3 minutes are gonna go so fast \:\)

So for example if you're really comfortable with a particular Aebersold track, bring the changes with you.

Personally, I'm not tempted for several reasons:
- I don't like bars, I don't like big crowds
- I don't like waiting for my turn
- 3 minutes is to short anyway \:\)
It's just so much more comfortable at home \:\)


 Quote:

As far as my own real professional work, it involves depressing the keyboard all day (but not the piano kind). \:D
That was my guess. I'm in the same boat ;\)
If they ever make you travel to DC, give me a ring, beer's on me ;\)

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#1011462 - 08/01/08 12:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5284
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Happy birthday, knotty -

Cathy
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#1011463 - 08/01/08 12:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by knotty:

Personally, I'm not tempted for several reasons:
- I don't like bars, I don't like big crowds
- I don't like waiting for my turn
- 3 minutes is to short anyway \:\)
It's just so much more comfortable at home \:\)

I would not be tempted too for the same reasons. I'm getting to an age where I don't need to prove things for ego purposes.

But there's just a sheer joy in improvising and having control over the music you play.

Was it Frycek that said this? It's the difference between watching someone else having XXX or doing it yourself. As we grow and actually start liking what we play, there's an intense pleasure that comes out of that. Do I have to perform publicly to get this pleasure? Occasionally but it's already a good feeling just doing it at home.

Knotty, I extend the same invitation to you (and to all our friends on this thread) to check me out in LA if you're ever here.
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#1011464 - 08/01/08 01:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Riddler Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 548
Loc: Florida
My teacher encouraged me early on to play in a jam session at a jazz club, so I did. It was a bit intimidating, because all of the other players were professionals, but I had prepared for it at great length, using Band-In-A-Box. I went in with the attitude that the first attempt at anything is bound to be a major disaster, so I should just do it and learn from it, and correct my weaknesses, so that the second time would only be a minor disaster instead of a major one, and so on.

Actually it was an unmitigated success. I played four songs, almost half an hour on stage, with no flubs. My biggest concern was losing time during the drum solos (trading fours), but, miraculously, that did not happen. I did find the stage lights annoying, and there was an awkward silence at the beginning of the first tune - - I was waiting for someone else to count in, and they were waiting for me to do it! Live and learn. It never hurts to have a bit of comic relief, even before you start!

There was an excellent post on LJP about this. I have searched for it, but can't find it. I think it was from Jazz+. The gist of it was that for a person's first jam session, he should go in with the attitude that it's his turn, the rest are there to support him however he needs, and he should play whatever he is totally comfortable with - just a few notes, or simple lines, simple chords, or just sit there, whatever, and really just enjoy the experience.

Anyway, good luck, and I'm sure you will do great!

Ed
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#1011465 - 08/01/08 06:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Good story Riddler.

You see I already tried a little of this. A couple of professionals came to my house to jam. These guys were serious pros and one frequents this forum with 30+ years of jazz piano behind him.

They just blew me away. I wasn't ready to keep up with them as their expectations are of serious playing. So now I know I can play but this incident is in the back of my mind.

I actually told my teacher this and he reassured me that I would be able to figure it out. Then my teacher jammed with me. If I can now jam with my teacher, I should be able to handle other jazzers. But the memory of my failure over a year ago comes back to haunt me.

I'm sure if I played with a less intimidating crowd, I would have a different ego level now. But that brought down my ego to zero.

Those guys might read this post. The reality though is I have a different level of confidence level now in my ability. But I'm careful to bring up my ego slowly as it was distressful to be crushed to a fine pulp \:D .
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#1011466 - 08/04/08 11:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Wow jazzwee! Excellent news from your jazz teacher. Can't wait to hear how it goes if you do decide to take the plunge and play a gig or with a band. I'm sure you'll do great. Really cool to hear the progress you've made in a relatively short period of time. Keep up the great work!

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#1011467 - 08/05/08 01:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
deeluk, thanks! I'm not going to formally plan on taking a 'plunge'. I'm just going to work hard on tunes as I always do and play publicly when I have a chance but I'll do it slow.

My first battle is to get over the little flashing red light. If I can do that then, the rest will be easy \:D

Seriously speaking though, and back to blog mode, I think it'll be next year before I actually feel confident. I always said it takes five years to get there. I feel like I got a little reserve time right now to clean up some spots.

Areas to clean: improving comping, improving soloing on uncommon keys, consistency of solo quality (sometimes this is up and down depending on concentration), improving handling of soloing over fast changes (like chord changes every two beats).

I hope this gives a little idea to those working up the jazz ladder what some the issues are to development.

As far as difficulty of tunes, I think I've worked on pretty difficult ones now, so that seems not to be too much of concern. For myself, I think the issue is to push everything to the subsconscious level so there's more time to appreciate the music and listen.

For those of you learning voicings, do you have to think about how to voice a Dm9(#5)? Am7(b5)? Fm11? This is the stuff that has to be on autopilot.

Same with scales. Once your mind and your fingers know each scale and positions of chord tones, suddenly solos go automatically and you stop thinking about technical issues. I just listen to the music coming out. It's amazing actually that it can happen, and in a reasonably short period of time (3+ years for me when I realized it).

When it happens, suddenly the improvement goes ballistic as the sound changes. Now the notes and melodies seem to just come automatically and I'm actually more focused on phrasing and rhythm. Maybe that will be more automatic too.

Another blog item: Licks.

Everyone learns a different way so this is not something I will say works for everyone else. My current teacher of two years has not taught me a single lick. I often wondered how I was going to learn jazz without learning licks and patterns. This teacher is completely against teaching that.

I mentioned to him that it's pretty amazing that in two years of not learning licks or copying anyone's patterns that I can actually play. I did learn licks from a prior teacher and I can honestly say, I don't remember the licks or use them.

What I did do was listen and when I transcribed, I studied the intervals and studied the selected notes against the scale being played (which often is biased towards chord tones), and lo and behold, I'm creating melodies. But the melodies are coming from my own head.

Anyway, I hope these blog posts are useful to someone following the same route of learning and hopefully get encouraged by what happens later in the process.
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#1011468 - 08/06/08 01:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
.
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#1011469 - 08/06/08 06:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Hey Jazz+. I agree Patterns are unavoidable in music. But repeating licks is one form of training for some. In fact, some players make a point of repeating common melodies in their playing. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm just saying that it's suprising that in the absence of memorization of licks that I'm still able to play. I'm just contrasting this to an old teacher that gave me a year's worth of licks to memorize and that was his methodology for teaching.

I just thought that interesting and after years of study, I've been able to compare approaches as it applies to what I learned. Some people are able to incorporate licks easily. It doesn't come easy to me. I find myself removing myself from the current idea and executing somebody else's idea. Then I can't go back to my own style.

This was just a blog point and not intended to characterize anybody else's learning method.

FYI - Dm9(#5) is the second chord in "Tones for Joans Bones - Chick Corea". Just used that as an example since it was something new and yes, outside of Chick, probably rare. But I could have used G7#5 as an example which is common. Point's the same though which is that, one needs to grasp chord intervals with immediacy. In fact, being aware of the important extensions is important to splitting the chord in LH and RH and cannot be done by sheer memorization of iim9-V7(9)(13) - I(6)(9) rootless voicings, at least in my experience.

The point of the blog was to spur a little debate and I appreciate your response. Let's discuss it more.
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#1011470 - 08/07/08 12:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
I play it like on the Blue Mitchell recording: voicing from the bottom up F Bb E (-3, b6, 9) over a D note in the bass.
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#1011471 - 08/07/08 01:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
.
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#1011472 - 08/07/08 01:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
I think we're the same J+. On my real book it's D-m7(#5) but that looks the same as G-7/D to me. I play it like you. When I showed my teacher my voicing he confirmed it was correct.

He did correct me on the B section which he had me play with tenths in the bass and a chord on the RH.

BTW - this guy on youtube plays Tones with a sustained 'bass' tone of A instead of D. Sounded good. I actually started applying it, going from A to D.

Nice tune isn't it? I don't which is harder, this or Dolphin Dance. Both complex.
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#1011473 - 08/07/08 01:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jazz+:
I urge everybody to study Mark Levines chapter in The Jazz Theory Book titled "From Scales To Music". It's a brilliant study with lots of examples of the melodic sequences (patterns) used by Herbie Hancock, Freddie Huubard, Coltrane, Joe Henderson, etc. Quite essential in my mind. [/b]
J+. I have Jazz Piano Book. Is it worth getting Jazz Theory book too? Is there enough new material?

Which book was first?
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#1011474 - 08/07/08 07:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi Everyone,

I thought I would jump in here in the middle of Jazzwee’s Tones for Joan’s Bones – which I do have in my fakebook, but I am staying away from that one.

My latest piano blog goes like this:

I have become addicted to Mal Waldron’s style of ballad playing. Jazz+ turned me on to Waldron and sent me a transcription of several of his ballads. (Thank you, Jazz+) I am trying to get Waldron’s feel into my fingers. I have recorded “The Man I Love”. I would appreciate feedback as to how close I am to Waldron’s take on this. Thank you for listening.

Here I am:
http://www.box.net/shared/vjw7w27cow

Here is Mal Waldron’s youtube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIvY5FJ3y-Q&feature=related
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011475 - 08/07/08 08:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Barb,

That was some serious swing right there. Really really nice.

I'm interested, how did you learn this?

great post!

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#1011476 - 08/07/08 08:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thank you, Knotty.

Here was my approach:

I put Waldron's youtube playing of the transcribed ballads on to my CD player. I listened to it each morning during my exercise walk. I was able to sing along, I knew it that well. Then, I worked through the transcription given to me by Jazz+. While learning measure by measure at the piano, I kept listening to Waldron play the exact part that I was working on. The guy is amazing in his playing. It is so intense. I am hooked.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011477 - 08/08/08 12:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
That sounds great, Barbara. I like how each melodic phrase is a little different speed, the way they acclerate and then slow down, it's expressive

Jazz+
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#1011478 - 08/08/08 01:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
You've been busy Barb! That's a great job! Sounds great. You've been progressing very well too since we started this thread. Your blog is too short. Tell us more. It's been awhile since we all worked on something.

How's your improv coming along? Gotta keep focusing on that as it takes the longest to develop.
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#1011479 - 08/08/08 03:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Here's a guy playing Tones for Joan's Bones. Interesting how it's a solo piano version. Chick Corea's version was a trio. This was originally from Chick's first album in 1966 I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOoZGuSQ1fA

Quite a bit of a jump from Autumn Leaves isn't it? \:D Some people think all we play is AL...
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#1011480 - 08/08/08 03:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Here's his version of Herbie Hancock's Dolphin Dance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFOuhiT-0Gg&feature=related

Again, it's kind of neat to hear it in solo piano.
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#1011481 - 08/08/08 07:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
 Quote:


Here's a guy playing Tones for Joan's Bones. Interesting how it's a solo piano version. Chick Corea's version was a trio. This was originally from Chick's first album in 1966 I believe.
Yeah but it was a quintet. Great album, although not the kind you play while having dinner.

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#1011482 - 08/08/08 09:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thank you Jazzwee and Jazz+

You want a longer blog Jazzwee? OK – you asked for it.

My Waldron ballads take up a very small fraction of my 6-8 hour day at the piano (trust me, lots of breaks throughout the day).

The improv is developing in context with my new love – reading from my jazz fakebook of 625 standards and jazz classics. Before I discovered this thread, songs that had non changing chords for a measure or two used to be songs that I AVOIDED. Now, I love those songs because I am able to use my knowledge from this thread to try interesting improv fills.

I have also discovered recently that I can pick out a tune, and fit a left hand harmony to it, then fill in those right hand voicings. This is in the very slow development stage, but, as I do it daily, it does get easier. It is a challenge, and much fun to do.

I am spending a good part of my day on learning to comp. Months ago, I was rather clueless about the whole thing. My comping was boring, I almost fell asleep while comping. Now I am experimenting with different rhythm patterns betweeen the right and left hand. I record myself, then play the melody as I listen to what I just recorded. It is very exciting. I love the creative process of comping. Each song is different and requires a different comping sound.

Another big part of my day is my repertoire of 60+ songs… I’ve lost count. Around 40 songs are memorized, the rest is fakebook reading songs. I don’t plan on actively trying to memorize any more. But I don’t want to lose what I have already memorized.

As you can tell, my day is packed. As far as improvising a chorus, I had to put that on hold for a while. After I get my comping under control by working up Tom’s repertoire, I will have time to revisit the thread and try those longer improv lines.

Okay, lurkers – who will be the next blogger?
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011483 - 08/08/08 10:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Barb,

I just went to your blog and none of the mp3 links work.

++

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#1011484 - 08/08/08 10:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
You're right, Knotty. Something fishy is going on with Mindspring today. I have to wait for my techie husband to come home and check it out.

I'll send you a pm when it is resolved.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011485 - 08/08/08 01:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Love it Barb! We keep ourselves motivated with friends here. Keep sharing.
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#1011486 - 08/08/08 01:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by knotty:
 Quote:


Here's a guy playing Tones for Joan's Bones. Interesting how it's a solo piano version. Chick Corea's version was a trio. This was originally from Chick's first album in 1966 I believe.
Yeah but it was a quintet. Great album, although not the kind you play while having dinner. [/b]
He!he! \:D 'So What' isn't Dinner fare either \:D but AL is...

BTW Chick played Tones only as a Trio, so the rest of the quintet sat one on this. I was actually newly exposed to this album. My teacher wanted me to work on this tune for a long time but I though it was too complicated (I was right).

But these are good advanced learning tunes because of unusual keys, fast moving chords, and unusual harmonies. Another tune that is a great learning tune is "Invitation". This one is popular among players here.

My teacher BTW is known as a Modern Jazz player so I don't think we'll be finding his style in a restaurant somewhere. But I'm drawn to his style. Mehldau wouldn't fit in a restaurant either -- too intellectual. \:D

What's amazing about jazz is the wide range of styles inside it. There's a great swath of choices for everyone. I enjoy all the substyles except maybe the old fashioned stride.
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#1011487 - 08/08/08 02:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
 Quote:

BTW Chick played Tones only as a Trio, so the rest of the quintet sat one on this.
ahah you got me! I'll pull it out of the shelf.

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#1011488 - 08/08/08 02:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Elssa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1486
Loc: NY
Hi Riddler: \:\)

I just wanted to tell you again how much I loved your C-Jam Blues - really awesome! My teacher wants me to work on improv with this one now, and the blues in general. Any tips? Would it be okay if I *tried* to copy bits of what you did, just to get me started? Thanks again! \:\)

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#1011489 - 08/08/08 02:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
C Jam blues -- I remember that well. . My lesson 3 years ago! A whole year of blues. I hardly do any blues now unfortunately but I'm still trying to perfect playing Blue Monk in thirds.

Elssa, blues is about copying so I would freely copy anyone that sounds good. I worked off a book of blues licks all year long. Unfortunately, it ended up turning me off to the whole process but apparently it works for most. There are several Blues Licks books in the market.
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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Noodling board
by Maarkr
Yesterday at 10:20 PM
New Movement Composed "To Rule" 4/20/2014
by hsheck
Yesterday at 10:17 PM
Understanding Sharps
by imustlearn
Yesterday at 08:18 PM
When a beginner is not a beginner anymore?
by Eight Octaves
Yesterday at 08:09 PM
DEBUSSY-"Serenade for the Doll" from 'Children's Corner'
by Hal Freedman
Yesterday at 07:14 PM
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