A (not so) hypothetical for your consideration:

Dealer A is offering a dynamite price on a well know piano. Dealer A is upfront about not doing any "prep" on the piano and is offering to tune the piano before delivery. That's it.

Dealer B has the same piano for a higher price. Dealer B says he will tune and have the piano in good shape before delivery, and give two tunings after delivery.

The question for this most excellent forum is:
what, in your opinion, is the value of the work of Dealer B?

This is probably not a very helpful answer, but it depends on the quality of the work done by Dealer B.

My question is, how can you properly evaluate a piano which is not currently prepped and in good tune? Before you even consider buying it?

I suppose, if you know and trust a tech, and they look the piano over and say that for "$X" they can have it in the best condition possible, then if Dealer B's price is higher than Dealer A's + X...

You're still buying a piano that you don't really know what it will sound or feel like after it's done...

It is not just a question of the value of the work - perhaps $200, but more a question of dealer attitude.

Dealer A will be rid of you when the piano is delivered. He has already made it clear that he is offering you next to nothing and you might conclude that this says a lot about how much he cares about customer satisfaction.

Dealer B will have a relationship with you for a good while, as he is doing prep, tuning and two further tunings. If you see the piano as a musical instrument rather than merely a "deal" then you will get more from this guy that will enhance your enjoyment of your piano.

When you have a problem with your piano, which dealer is going to be there for you?

Unless you are talking about a large price differential that cannot be reduced to acceptable levels by negotiation, then for me dealer B is the better choice.

Dealers can be screwed down to very marginal deals for them. That is why we end up with shyster piano dealers sometimes.

Kind regards

Adrian

If the piano is prepped properly $200.00 does not even come close.

Depending on the make of pinao and upright can take 6-8 hours to regulate and voice.

If it's a grand 8- 14 hours would not be out of line.

That being said many dealers do not do this kind of prep. Generally, you will find this type of service from smaller technician owned stores.

If you buy from a store that says they do nothing, then you have nothing to "complain" about if something is not to your liking.

The two after delivery tunings are worth $200.00 from dealer #2. What exactly is dealer #2 going to do to the piano before it leaves?

We need more info re Dealer B's prep.

IMO the main value of a dealer post-sale is as a conduit to the distributor, if warranty issues arise. Warranty issues are rare.

What is Dealer B doing by way of prep? One way to learn that is to ask how much time it takes to prepare the piano that you're considering. You might want to compare what you learn to Rod Verhnjak's post above and the prep presented here.

I agree with AJB's assessment that Dealer B's approach indicates more of an on-going relationship. The problem is that full-time dealers' techs are often not the most highly skilled. (Dealers sometimes contract with skilled techs.)

Highly skilled techs often establish their own practices. IMO in general it'd be best to establish a relationship with your own tech. The downside to this is that you have to locate that person. You can get recommendations on the Tuner-Techs forum.

If you really want your piano to play at its full potential, it'd be good to expect that it'll be necessary to revisit the prep once or twice a year, depending on how much and how vigorously you play. (Subsequent prep will be more of a touch up.) Rich Galassini recently posted on another forum re the difficulty of getting customers to accept what in the thread linked to above is called a "service agreement".

Based on the info provided so far, I'd go with Dealer A + own tech. What you learn about Dealer B's prep and tech could change that.

PP,
Several dealers in my area are just barely holding on. These dealers don't tune their pianos, at least not the uprights I'm shopping for. Your question is a good one, how do you evaluate those pianos. One dealer has a piano on his floor that is a very nice piano, but the keys are totally jammed. How would you evaluate that?

AJB,
My philosophy has always been that paying a little extra for customer service is a wise investment. The reason I posted this question was that Dealer A is offering a really great price. The economy here is very bad and some dealers are getting desperate to sell pianos. Dealer A is not a shyster, just in trouble.

RV,
You are correct, I'll have no complaint with Dealer A, he's not trying to pull any tricks.

Normally, I'd choose Dealer B, and may still do so, but the savings are significant. Hence my dilemma.

I couldn't evaluate it.

I recently purchased a piano and have been where you are now, and was *very* frustrated. When I started my search I was looking at used uprights, but finding one that was tuned and in good shape was like finding a needle in a haystack.

How do you know a piano is "a very nice piano" if they keys are totally jammed? By the name? By the looks? by the one or 2 keys that play?

It is possible a good tech could evaluate such a piano. But I was buying a piano for me to play, and I wanted to pick one I liked. I doubt that a tech can tell you whether you are going to like a piano, and whether you are going to like piano A better than piano B, after necessary work is done...all other things being equal.

Gary, my suggestion is that you talk with dealer 1. Tell him what piano or pianos that you are interested in. Ask him to tune them if they are not in tune. This should be in his best interest anyway. Then talk with him about what dealer prep would cost to have the piano you want carefully prepared. He should be able to have it done for much less than you can pay a tech to come to your home and have it done. Print off the list of preparation check list that is on another PW thread and have it to discuss the cost, and if you buy the piano have the tech check off each item as he does it.

Then assume that your tech will need to do less work on your new piano in a few months as it settles in and ages.

Hi Gary,

You present a good question and a dilemma for consideration.

Here is my meager .02… as already mentioned, you will probably get better technical service from an independent piano technician than from the store tech; therefore, I would be inclined to buy the unprepped piano from dealer A at a discount and then find a good technician to regulate it and make any needed adjustments. You have the warranty from the manufacturer or dealer A if there are major problems in the future, plus you will have established a relationship with you new piano tech for future tunings and service.

Or, you could do what I did and learn to tune and regulate the piano yourself (don’t tell the piano tech’s here I said that ).

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Rickster

Too much missing information here.

What does it mean to "have the piano in good shape before delivery? Is it not in shape now? Does it have deficiencies that you or the dealer have noted?

Are the pianos at the two dealers identical with the same componentry, wood finish, and year of manufacture?

Are both of them uncrated and on the respective salesfloors with no history of use as a demo, a loaner, or a customer return? If the pianos are on the salesfloor, one would assume that they are both in good enough shape to attract customer interest.

What 'well-known' piano are you talking about?
It makes a big difference. Prepping a Yamaha out of the crate will not require nearly as much time and effort as most others. If the piano is a low-priced model from China, the chances are great that the dealer who says he preps it probably doesn't do the half of what he should.

How do you know Dealer B really preps the piano? "We'll prep the piano" is one of the biggest lines told by sales staff. You get what you pay for in this business (dealer A). You can also NOT get what you pay for (dealer B).

Many great comments here.
It would be great to know what manufacture and model we are talking about.

We know it's an upright.

To me this is a completely hypotehical question based on ...er... all too often true realities out there in the market.

My immediated response would be to recommend dealer B - my hesitation is that there is no reason that he be necessarily 'more expensive'...

Dealers who do not pay good techs to have their pianos properly prepped don't see the potential excellent service has fro their business, have no passion for what they are doing or are - sorry to say - plain *stupid*.

IMHO.

The very fact that a dealer is selling expertly set up and fully prepped pianos, creates nothing but more business for him with with even more success and 'greater profits' in the long run.

As a dealer,I'd rather make $ 500 or even $1000 less on any one intrument - but then sell 2 of them down the road.

Most importantly, I can be proud of my stock, the companies I happen to represent and create long term customer relationships this - from day one!

Amazing that anybody out there would see this any different...

Norbert

It's a Kawai K2. This piano fits into my minimal budget. And it is a quite nice instrument.

What the level of preparation from Dealer B would be, I haven't a clue.

In this case, just buy the one with better price.

Kawai uprights don't need tons of prepping and anyone who claims so is hugely overstating his case.

Good luck and save yourself some $....

Norbert

This assumes that Dealer B's sales staff is lying.

Irresponsible comments like this, particularly from a tech are unfair damaging to those honest dealers who provide good prep.

Thanks for your comment, Steve, but I'm not assuming Dealer B is lying at all. Like you, I've been around for a long time, and "I'll prep the piano" or "I'll fix this and that" are promises not always kept. That's all I was saying. Dealer B may in fact do what he says (refer to Norbert's post). I tell it like it is, because that's what posters here want. And how it is....can be very good, or somewhat good.

It is not uncommon for some stores to have a piano tuned and call this "prepped." This is the underlying problem - is the dealer trustworthy. If the dealer can show you a checklist signed off by the technician, that can be one form of assurance of a thorough preparation. If it's possible to speak to the technician, that could be another.

Buying an unprepped piano and paying a technician to do the prep will end up costing more - perhaps $500 would be a low starting price. In this case it will include the tuning, string seating, plus action work that the technician will want to do to ensure his/her reputation will be maintained. When working for the dealer, the technician is taking instruction from the store, and will often do less and charge a little less.

Prepping a well made Japanese upright for $200 is not unreasonable, but it will be a minimal preparation. This is enough money in to correct small things that change from shipping and such, and make sure the piano is playing well. One should consider the tuning separate, though.

A thorough preparation of a low quality grand piano to make it play and sound up to it's design potential could be multiple days work, and with a talented technician doing the work this could be a few thousand dollars.

So there is something of a range to consider.

Level 1 prep: Store has full time head tech plus techs in training. The store has a workshop with benches and standard shop tools and spare parts. Rebuilding may or may not take place here. This is a teaching store-techs are learning the craft. Prep here takes up to one day on an upright, and up to 2 days on a grand. There is a written checklist to make sure pianos are properly prepped. Pianos are always prepped before delivery. Techs are always available, and customers can take a tour of the workshop.

Level 2 prep: Store has a workbench, and work area. Tech may be contract or employee. All used pianos are repaired and tuned before being placed on the floor. Floor stock is tuned regularly. Nearly all pianos are delivered prepped. The technician is almost always there, supported by contract road techs.

Level 3 prep: Store has no workbench or work area - techs are all contract, and may be in store one-two days per week. Some pianos go to the customer unprepped and flat in pitch, some pianos get delivered right out of the overseas shipping carton. Prep is tuning only, and fixing a sticky key here and there.

Level 4 prep: Piano is sold though the internet or otherwise sight unseen. It's delivered to the customer via contract movers. Customer may or may not have a free tuning after delivery.

I've worked at two level one stores. One even buffed the white keys and spent 1/2 day on the cabinet on every piano before delivery. Both stores were a great place to work, and I felt like I was making a difference.

I've worked at one level two store. We sold tons of used pianos because of the prep we put into them. 3 hours on a vertical and 6 hours on a grand make a big difference.

The other stores I've been at have been more like level three. The better number three preps are ok. Average. Not too many customer complaints. The lower end of this category draws a fair number of customer complaints, and techs are put in the position of answering questions like "is this a good piano", or "did I get a good deal?".

Occasionally I do a level 4, but those customers typically never tune their piano again after the freebie.

Bob, [/b] your "Levels of Prep" post is much appreciated.

Maybe I do some things wrong. I guess I could be making more money, but, here's my situation. I am a musician (questionable)but, when I get in a Baldwin grand or 6000, Bechstein, C. Bechstein, Brodmann Grand or 52" vertical, I call the concert technician who is extraordinary and have him voice and regulate these pianos. Sometimes he may spend 6 hours on one while the other time it may be only a couple of hours. Why? Because I want them to sound "perfect". I occasionally miss something and dont spend lots of time on the Chinese pianos outside of a normal checklist. The other pianos that I mentioned naturally are more expensive and we naturally make more gross profit dollars off of them, therefore I can spend more in the prep of them. They perform better and if anything is potentially in need of extra attention it will be noted at that time and I can have it fixed.

When I spoke with a car dealer friend of mine he said they do the exact same thing in their upper line cars.

What am I missing here? Isnt this expected? Here is a situation that just happened. I had our tuner tune an upper line piano that just came in, because I did not have enough time to have it voiced and regulated, he tuned and we let it go. The piano was being demonstrated when suddenly a damper did not return as swiftly as it should and the piano sounded awful. It was not something that would have been caught during a normal tuning, but, would have in regulation. The committee was considerate enough to understand the situation and allowed me time to have it fixed before trying it out again and approving it. My point is, if this had been in a home and the technician would have had to go to the customers home and fix it I would have had to pay for it anyway, so why not just spend a few hundred up front and guarantee that these types of things dont exist before they go out.

Ric Overton
ric@pianosd.com
PianoSD-San Diego

Great! Now we can start labeling dealers' "prep level" using the above.

The question remains: What $$$ to put for each "level" of prep?

Without considering the tiered "level" scheme, my thinking on establishing an upperbound for the value of "prep" is simple:

10% of purchase price or $2500 maximum, which ever is the lesser. I figure 20 hours per piano and $125 an hour of skilled/specialized labour would cover just about anything.

The stuff the Shigeru Kawai people do about getting a "Master Piano Artisan" from Japan to spend a long day (10 hours?) doing in-home prep'ing is about as extreme as anyone can do. So if we ever get the amortized cost of Shigeru Kawai's prep'ing program, that should pretty convincingly establish a very reasonable upperbound for the market value of "great" piano prep.

My advice is to have a reputable tech not affiliated with either dealer, look over both - evaluate what prep (if any) is needed, and maybe give you a better idea of what can be done once the instrument is in your home.

Norbet - I fully agree with you 100%. Much more prep should be done to new pianos in showrooms!! During my piano searching over the last few months I have tried out so many pianos - all unprepped. Makes it VERY difficult to choose a piano and judge its quality/suitablity. Hence my getting FOUR different pianos before I was satisfied. Now my tech is coming tomorrow to do set-up on my new RX6. Lets HOPE that he does the required work. In any case my dealer knows what I will do if I am not happy. That is they will have to pay MORE MONEY for him to come AGAIN and finish the work. Lets hope this does not happen.

Sounds to me like "Dealer A" is in trouble for a reason.

Selecting a piano is not like buying something off the shelf at K-Mart. A wise shopper would never commit to the purchase of an instrument that didn't sound and feel right--- but, glancing through the posts on this forum shows that there are many shoppers that have a different philosophy. And most of them, when they're told differently, do the same thing anyway. That's realpolitik.

So, Dealer A is catering to a segment of the market that is less worth having as customers. I picture someone running down a slippery slope, trying to keep ahead of a piece of firewood with strings. He may beat the coefficient of friction sometimes, but...

Anyway. Just an opinion and an image.

I have been fortunate to have worked for several retailers over the years that were dedicated to preparation of pianos on the showroom floor and prior to delivery. I know the difference it makes in selling more pianos, less service calls in the field, and higher customer satisfaction with their purchase.

However, more and more some brands and models are being viewed as a "comodity" by more customers rather than an instrument. The demand to have a piano delivered "in-the-box" grows in spite of our attempts at education. This comes from some kind of cultural bias from our Asian, Persian, and Indian customers. (Thank God for their significant business - not complaining) The personal networking of these cultural communities and single minded focus to get the "lowest price" is forcing dealers to rethink the material dollars involved in make ready or preparation expenses.

Posters here frequently talk about retailers cutting expenses to run leaner opperations to facilitate lower prices to consumers. This is one of those significant areas. Everytime I read one of these "price paid" posts and chest thumping raves about how they raped the dealer on their Yamaha U1 I can only think of the financial impact of this kind of business going forward.

A bigger expense is the cost of flooring dozens and dozens of a variety of instruments to make a selection from. I received two calls from folks back East just yesterday complaining about their local dealer not stocking certain esoteric slow turning models. Expect less and less to see and play as margins erode.

You can't demand these in-the-dirt prices and also demand expensive preparation, selection, location, lessons, music, software, acoustics, etc. Ain't gonna happen.

Tech time is money; plain and simple.

If it is a piano that is well known for its manufacturing consistency, e.g. Yamaha, I would go for dealer A. I would even tell them I don't need their "free" tunings, just give me back the money! I'd hire my own tuner. I would call the dealer when there is a warranty issue. Technicians affiliated with a dealer would less likely let you know when there is an issue with the piano. And I don't need the dealer to vacuum and polish my piano and call it a prep!

For anything else, I'd go for dealer B. But I would make sure they do what they are supposed to do IN FRONT OF me.

It is a good thing that consumers now demand out of the box performance. It forces piano manufacturers to properly prep and check their pianos before letting them leave the factory. Of course dealers would disagree. Because selling service is a source of income for them, much like a car dealer selling maintenance service.

"You have just ordered an expensive, meticulously hand built car with the best material and uncompromising quality control. But it will arrive at our dealership with flat tires, out of alignment suspension, leaking sunroof, engine parts size mismatch, uneven steering wheel torque. However, we will have our tech do a thorough 2 days 16 hours prep for your car to bring out its best. It is included in your price. Don't worry! Just trust me because I've been in the industry for 50 years and know it all!"

It is time for the manufacturers to take care of its own product!

PNO wrote,
"It is a good thing that consumers now demand out of the box performance. It forces piano manufacturers to properly prep and check their pianos before letting them leave the factory."

The preparation and detailing on major brands is no different today than it was 10 or 15 years ago. This is an erroneous assumption. Don't expect it to change in my lifetime.

PNO wrote,
"Of course dealers would disagree. Because selling service is a source of income for them, much like a car dealer selling maintenance service."

Dealers don't sell "preparation service." It is an expense item not a profit item. Dealers would be thrilled for all pianos to come out of the box perfect with just one tuning.

PNO wrote,
"You have just ordered an expensive, meticulously hand built car with the best material and uncompromising quality control. But it will arrive at our dealership with flat tires, out of alignment suspension, leaking sunroof, engine parts size mismatch, uneven steering wheel torque. However, we will have our tech do a thorough 2 days 16 hours prep for your car to bring out its best. It is included in your price. Don't worry! Just trust me because I've been in the industry for 50 years and know it all!"

Gross mischaracterization. However, no piano comes out of the box perfect. All pianos need tech time to bring them to their intended level of performance. You seem to be making some kind of case of retailer conspiracy or something PNO. I find your last line insulting.

When you go into a dealership to make a selection and purchase, do you want the instruments to perform or not? Just today, I have read threads where posters are complaining about poor or no preparation. Now you are poking dealers about preparation. You/we are never going to change what the manufacturers do about landed quality. Either the dealer does it and pays for it or it doesn't happen. What is it that you want?

Yamaha as a distributor came up the the Yamaha Service Bond that ensures two tunings and a full check off list of technical adjustments. They do this to ensure their products are in top form for their customers. This seems admirable to me. You want to throw this out the window. Yamaha reimburses the dealer for a part of this expense. The dealer cannot bargain this away. I don't understand your position.

pno,
I suggest to you to consider that a piano is very much different that a car. The car is a 21st century machine that is produced by factories that put our 100,000s of cars per year. They are now mostly made by robots welding, sanding, painting, etc. They are also mostly metal which can be so closely machined by computer aided machines.

Pianos are mostly wooden machines of the 19th century. Hand made pianos are often made by companies like Steinway in the same methods as they made them in the 19th century. Such pianos are made with wood, felt, leather, etc and these materials settle, age, dry out or take in moisture from the air. They also are shipped in containers across oceans on their sides in containers and warehoused for months.

Mass produced pianos are now made with computer aided machines and robots doing the painting, etc. These reduce much or most of the hand work. However their material of wood, felt, leather, etc still age, settle, warp,change, etc. These need prep work. Plus each key of the action has more than 30 adjustments which needs much hand work. These adjustments are not well done in a mass assembly line, whether that was an assembly line of 1880, 1990, or 2009.

I do not believe that one who asks for a cheep piano usually has any idea that they are getting such an old fashioned machine which needs so much hand work and adjustment, but they are asking for a cheaply, and poorly made machine which is far from carefully regulated and prepared to make music upon.

They will never have the potential to make the wonderful music that a wonderful piano would give them.

Every time I drive my fine car, old but made so very well, I have a true joy of driving it. Likewise every time one plays a fine piano, finely maintained, they have a thrill of making music on the fine piano.
Those who buy cheap pianos do not usually know what they or their family is missing.

I know a dealer who sells a service package quite successfully. By my reckoning, his service package sales covers a large part of his service costs.