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#1019751 - 07/26/06 08:29 AM Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
To anyone who is interested following my comments to funburger about popular music being flexible (classical of course is very strict and has to be for the most part perfection - so I am only referring to modern music here)

I have quickly recorded a bit of a demo...I have played a verse of blue moon how I like it, then I've changed the tempo a little, changed the chords a little then played the melody a little wrong then a lot more wrong.

Just to show that so long as you keep on going it doesn't matter too much

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some people think when I play it wrong I sound better than when I play it right

Blue Moon and Plenty of Bloopers!! (click)


okay so this one is probably stretching things too far...but, I do sometimes sound like this when I totally forget how the song goes....LOL

Funburger you would probably have to wear a really crazy hat to get away with this :-

incredibly bloopy blue moon LOL (click)

regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019752 - 07/26/06 10:45 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
Well, I am sure you will not be surprised to read that my response is "Fantastic"!! I enjoyed listening to both versions. I don't even think a crazy hat would be necessary. However, a big tip jar on the piano would definitely be needed!
_________________________
When I reach the place I'm going, I will surely know my way.

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#1019753 - 07/26/06 11:05 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Rocky

Thanks as always, you're too kind \:D (your cheque is in the post ), but what I am hoping you can hear is this - can you tell that even when I play the wrong notes it still kinda soundz like "Blue Moon"???

Just out of curiosity The first file is 4 different bluemooons all with differing levels of wrongness and the second file is like soooo wrong it is quite funny to me ;\)

Which version did you like the best or does it not really matter ie they all sound okay?


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019754 - 07/26/06 11:08 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
I liked the first one better. You can't hum along with the second one. However, for background music that you're not humming along with, it sounded great!

You can use that second style to see if your audience is paying attention to your playing. If you start getting some weird looks, then you know they've been humming along. \:D

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#1019755 - 07/26/06 11:11 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
Hi Sea,
I have to say that your statement (regarding Classical music being very strict vs. popular music being flexible) initially took me by surprise. I view popular music as being fairly limited to rather simple patterns, formulas, colors, textures, etc.. Whereas Classical Music (meaning all serious music - for want of a better term) is unlimited in it's exploration of all of the elements mentioned above. I realise that you are referring to what the general public accepts in performance. Certainly, most popular music is performed in less formal surroundings which offer the performer certain leeway, but even the liscence taken by popular performers doesn't usually go beyond 'shaking up' familiar (often cliched) elements. You're quite right that the average concert goer expects the average concert artist to play pieces from the concert repetoire exactly as written. This, of course is rarely the case. Interpretive liscense has created as many vastly dis-similar renditions of the masterworks (some very controversial) as there are performers. Also, improvisation has always been a part of Serious music (again I apologize for the term - I just wish to include all concert music, not just that from the Classic Era). And those improvisations often transcend the limitations of furmulaic (I hope that's a word) progressions, rhythms, textures, colors, tonality, even technique. I'm not criticising your statement. I know what you mean; but I thought a clarification might be helpful for other beginners.
Best wishes for continued successful playing,
Walt

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#1019756 - 07/26/06 11:17 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Walt

Theres no way I am arguing with that!! ;\) (heck I dont even understand the half of it )

I just wasn't really even trying to talk about classical music thats all (I know nothing about it to be honest, yeah I know my bad but, hey it doesn't float my boat). So I was only talking about popular music cause its all I know. (Classsical is probably more flexible than I know...but, judging from some of the posts I read here from classical adult beginners, it all sounds rather strict in the quest for playing it perfectly to me?)

Don't wanna upset you or anything \:\) I'm just trying to show how a few bum notes can be okay and melodies are as flexible as I don't know what!

I am so glad as least one version was sing-a-long-able to Bob. 1 out of 5 means I'm getting better \:\)

 Quote:
You can use that second style to see if your audience is paying attention to your playing. If you start getting some weird looks, then you know they've been humming along.
funny \:\)


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019757 - 07/26/06 11:18 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
I guess I liked the first version better, like Bob. They both still "sounded like" Blue Moon enough to know what the song was I think.
_________________________
When I reach the place I'm going, I will surely know my way.

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#1019758 - 07/26/06 11:57 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
Sea -
You didn't upset me. I know what you meant. I just wanted to clarify your statement for anyone who might have gotten the wrong impression about (so-called) Classical music.
Walt

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#1019759 - 07/26/06 12:20 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Walt, next you'll be telling us that Fur Elise isn't a song. \:D

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#1019760 - 07/26/06 12:38 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
It seems like over on the Pianists board if someone even plays 1 note a bit more loudly than they thought it should then they've ruined the whole piece of music...god forbid they hit a wrong note!
_________________________
When I reach the place I'm going, I will surely know my way.

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#1019761 - 07/26/06 12:51 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
I've got no problem calling Fur Elise a song (albeit w/o words). I also don't hesitate to improvise on Fur Elise when there are young people there who play it. It's very accessible and everyone recognises it, so it's a fun one to sort of bridge the gap.

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#1019762 - 07/26/06 01:37 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
Lee- first, I liked the second version, but I'm one of those weirdos who actually likes it when people "mess with" familiar stuff! lol And you really didn't toss it up too much. I have this little add-on for Media Player that tries to analyze chords and notes as something is playing, and, honestly, there wasn't a lot of odd stuff in there at all.

And to comment on both your and Walt's observations:
[on soapbox]
There is a perception problem with a very large portion of the listening public, imo. They only want to hear what they are familiar with and what they know. It is worse with those who only listen to pop music- all they know is the radio or album version and heaven forbid that a performer try to change things around at all! I am fairly active on several rock and roll forums and it is amazing how upset folk get if you even suggest that, just maybe, it would be nice to hear some of them (very talented- yeah, I know: But they play ROCK music! lol) stretch out a little. If it isn't EXACTLY note for note what they are used to hearing, it's being played "wrong." So what happens is that some very talented musicians become afraid to let loose because the audience wouldn't understand. It frustrates the heck out of me, because I get bored listening to the same old stuff, time after time... It's somewhat different in jazz, where it is almost expected that solos, in particular, will change and evolve as they are performed more and more. Classical? Well, yes, there is some room for interpretation in any given piece, but I don't think it would go over well with most classical purists to really change a given piece of music. But then, I also don't think that is the point with classical music. The basic genre is a reproduction, for lack of a better word (and I'm sure there is a better one), of the music as written by a particular composer. It's not everyone's cup of eighth notes, but then that's also why there are so many genres of music. Everyone can find what they like and appreciate most. Me? I like it all- there is very little music that I just won't listen to at all, tho there certainly is some that I like more than others. Our cd collection has a little bit of everything, and a LOT of some things. No matter what your favorite, a bit of exposure to a lot of different stuff will never hurt....

[off soapbox]
_________________________
-Mak

1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
Kawai MP-4 digital

---------------------------
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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#1019763 - 07/26/06 01:54 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
funburger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1417
the first one reminded me of a lounge, the second one sounded more like walking through a store, thats what i saw anyways, and where your music took me. i think you did a nice job of at least taking me somewhere with the music. i will have to listen again to find all those horrid mistakes you were talking about. now for my morning coffee and another listen:)
_________________________
If it ain't fun I ain't doin' it:)

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#1019764 - 07/26/06 02:28 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
There you go Bob :p

see - Mak likes the second one and it reminded "Funb" of shopping so it was kinda passable \:\) ...heck Mak even put it thru a machine thingymajig and even the machine thinks its not too far off either!


thanks for listening


Lee \:D
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019765 - 07/26/06 02:31 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
keyboard samurai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 217
Loc: Hot and Humid Houston, TX
Of course, this has been a problem in Rock music for a long time. It's what Jimi Hendrix ran into head on. People wanting to hear Foxy Lady when he wanted to be experiment in the unknown areas of jazz-rock-blues fusion and improvisations.

The Grateful Dead being a possible exception in terms of popularity but they toured all the time and probably many deadheads were so busy partying that they missed some of the improvisational experimentation.

On the other hand:
The problem with much of serious music (including Classical) IMO, is that it takes rare genius to go off the reservation and still somehow maintain a possible human connection or emotional connection to a significant audience. Significant being more that yourself and/or a small core of cognoscenti who find it an interesting intellectual exercise.

It's been a while since I was up on the area but last time I looked people investigating human creativity were finding that most people were more creative when they started from more structured environments to begin with.

I wonder about this when I hear some musicians or composers go off the deep end to what starts to amount to random noise without regard to make any connection. Fun for them to play maybe, not fun to listen to.

[off soapbox]
_________________________
Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

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#1019766 - 07/26/06 02:37 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Mak you are right about the jazz thang too ;\)

If I play something really bad and someone notices (and mentions it \:\( ) I just tell 'em it was the jazz version


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019767 - 07/26/06 02:39 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Samurai

I am pretty sure you weren't comparing my piano playing to Jimi Hendrix and his guitar there

But, hey!...I'll pretend you were


Lee \:D
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019768 - 07/26/06 02:43 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
funburger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1417
ok i had my husband listen to it, and he said the first one was like overlooking a city late at night after a romantic dinner, and second one felt more like wayne newton(without voice) in vegas. he said there was difinitly different feels to them.

this is my husbands thoughts. at first he said if you were trying to play the first song it was off, i said i know but listen to it and accept it that way, he did and that was the responses he gave:) so he still got a feel out of it once he accepted it as ones own version.
_________________________
If it ain't fun I ain't doin' it:)

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#1019769 - 07/26/06 02:46 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Margareth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 99
Loc: Estonia
It's interesting that whenever I play popular music (from fake book, just improvising) for friends or at church or anywhere I don't get nervous at all because I know that even if I mess up I can recover very quickly because I know the scales very well and the chords in the scale-- so I just do whatever and get back on track - noone usually notices. But when I play classical I get more nervous and if I mess up I say - sorry (with a smile ) and then continue.
I love to play both though - they're just very different.

Seaside Lee - I have enjoyed your recordings! Thank you!
_________________________
Attitude is everything.

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#1019770 - 07/26/06 02:54 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Funburger

I've got to come round to your house for dinner

Kids climbing walls, husband hears Wayne Newton in Vegas (without a voice ) and your off walking through Department stores .

Can't for the life of me imagine it would be boring ;\)

Thanks Margareth \:D


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019771 - 07/26/06 03:11 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
s54mo827 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 1231
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by funburger:
wayne newton (without voice) in vegas.
We saw Wayne Newton in Vegas - decent show.

Oh this isn't about that. I know that.... I'm here to concur with Seaside - and for that matter, rocky. Sure, heaven forbid you hit a clinker... well - if you're smart and know what you're doing where you're taking the song, you can make it work for you. The trick is how to do that with grace. BTW: I'm still learning ... because I do freak out when I hit wrong notes.

Lee - unable to hear your stuff on PW... could you send email me... if not too much trouble.

Shar. \:\)
_________________________
~Sharon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv7-qjprix4

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#1019772 - 07/26/06 03:22 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Shar? \:\)

 Quote:
Lee - unable to hear your stuff on PW... could you send email me... if not too much trouble.

Omly if you know the secret password ;\)


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019773 - 07/26/06 03:24 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
funburger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1417
ok, ok, seaside, when you put it that way---we are crazy!!! you are right though never a dull moment!!!
and the whole wayne newton without a voice was meant to say wayne newtons music without his voice....you know on piano.... doesnt everyone go somewhere when they hear music or are we just really really nuts???
you really dont have to answer that one
:p
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#1019774 - 07/26/06 03:28 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
nah you're just nuts \:D
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019775 - 07/26/06 03:33 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
s54mo827 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 1231
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Seaside_Lee:
Omly if you know the secret password ;\)
sexy? Is that the password? If not, now it is.

Waiting for my email! *whistling.. tapping my foot*..... la di da.... whistling.... ;\)
_________________________
~Sharon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv7-qjprix4

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#1019776 - 07/26/06 03:40 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
s54mo827 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 1231
Loc: New York
Personal note to Seaside_Lee.

Sorry so brazen, matey. Don't know what's come over me these past few days. Anyway, if you would please be so kind as to send me your stuff via email, I would be most grateful. Gracias! \:\)
_________________________
~Sharon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv7-qjprix4

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#1019777 - 07/26/06 04:05 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Don't worry, I took it as funny \:D

The password was "Wayne Newton"

but sexy was close enough ;\)


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019778 - 07/26/06 04:08 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
markb Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 2593
Loc: Maryland
For those of you old enough to have heard of the Moody Blues, some years back (probably around 10) they did a few tours backed by local orchestras. I was a huge fan of their music, but I just *loved* listening to them, live, with an orchestra. It added whole new dimension to their music, which was well-suited for orchestral arrangements.

I remember reading some posts on a Moody Blues forum from some avid fans who were disappointed by these shows--I suppose they thought it diluted the music or something. I don't know.

Popular music is well-suited to improvising (Just look at fakebooks--basic chord progressions, melody, but the rest is up to the musician.), but it's the listeners who get uncomfortable by straying from the formula. It's too bad.
_________________________
markb--The Count of Casio

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#1019779 - 07/26/06 04:17 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi markb

compare my music to the Moody Blues anytime you want ;\)

BTW I have just had the pleasure of listening to the Paul Anka "Rock Swings" album...and I loved the way he has taken modern songs, then sang them with the backing of an Orchestra and given them a swing feel.

Its very kool


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019780 - 07/26/06 04:21 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by markb:
For those of you old enough to have heard of the Moody Blues, some years back (probably around 10) they did a few tours backed by local orchestras. I was a huge fan of their music, but I just *loved* listening to them, live, with an orchestra. It added whole new dimension to their music, which was well-suited for orchestral arrangements.

I remember reading some posts on a Moody Blues forum from some avid fans who were disappointed by these shows--I suppose they thought it diluted the music or something. I don't know.[/b]
I believe it. I've heard musicians complain that they would love to "turn that guitar part on it's tail, but I can't because half the audience wouldn't get it." And then, they probably wouldn't come back to another show, and that's just sad...

 Quote:
Popular music is well-suited to improvising (Just look at fakebooks--basic chord progressions, melody, but the rest is up to the musician.), but it's the listeners who get uncomfortable by straying from the formula. It's too bad. [/b]
It is too bad, because it puts limitations on musicians that shouldn't be.
_________________________
-Mak

1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
Kawai MP-4 digital

---------------------------
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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