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#1019751 - 07/26/06 08:29 AM Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
To anyone who is interested following my comments to funburger about popular music being flexible (classical of course is very strict and has to be for the most part perfection - so I am only referring to modern music here)

I have quickly recorded a bit of a demo...I have played a verse of blue moon how I like it, then I've changed the tempo a little, changed the chords a little then played the melody a little wrong then a lot more wrong.

Just to show that so long as you keep on going it doesn't matter too much

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some people think when I play it wrong I sound better than when I play it right

Blue Moon and Plenty of Bloopers!! (click)


okay so this one is probably stretching things too far...but, I do sometimes sound like this when I totally forget how the song goes....LOL

Funburger you would probably have to wear a really crazy hat to get away with this :-

incredibly bloopy blue moon LOL (click)

regards


Lee \:\)
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Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019752 - 07/26/06 10:45 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
Well, I am sure you will not be surprised to read that my response is "Fantastic"!! I enjoyed listening to both versions. I don't even think a crazy hat would be necessary. However, a big tip jar on the piano would definitely be needed!
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When I reach the place I'm going, I will surely know my way.

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#1019753 - 07/26/06 11:05 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Rocky

Thanks as always, you're too kind \:D (your cheque is in the post ), but what I am hoping you can hear is this - can you tell that even when I play the wrong notes it still kinda soundz like "Blue Moon"???

Just out of curiosity The first file is 4 different bluemooons all with differing levels of wrongness and the second file is like soooo wrong it is quite funny to me ;\)

Which version did you like the best or does it not really matter ie they all sound okay?


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019754 - 07/26/06 11:08 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
I liked the first one better. You can't hum along with the second one. However, for background music that you're not humming along with, it sounded great!

You can use that second style to see if your audience is paying attention to your playing. If you start getting some weird looks, then you know they've been humming along. \:D

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#1019755 - 07/26/06 11:11 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
Hi Sea,
I have to say that your statement (regarding Classical music being very strict vs. popular music being flexible) initially took me by surprise. I view popular music as being fairly limited to rather simple patterns, formulas, colors, textures, etc.. Whereas Classical Music (meaning all serious music - for want of a better term) is unlimited in it's exploration of all of the elements mentioned above. I realise that you are referring to what the general public accepts in performance. Certainly, most popular music is performed in less formal surroundings which offer the performer certain leeway, but even the liscence taken by popular performers doesn't usually go beyond 'shaking up' familiar (often cliched) elements. You're quite right that the average concert goer expects the average concert artist to play pieces from the concert repetoire exactly as written. This, of course is rarely the case. Interpretive liscense has created as many vastly dis-similar renditions of the masterworks (some very controversial) as there are performers. Also, improvisation has always been a part of Serious music (again I apologize for the term - I just wish to include all concert music, not just that from the Classic Era). And those improvisations often transcend the limitations of furmulaic (I hope that's a word) progressions, rhythms, textures, colors, tonality, even technique. I'm not criticising your statement. I know what you mean; but I thought a clarification might be helpful for other beginners.
Best wishes for continued successful playing,
Walt

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#1019756 - 07/26/06 11:17 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Walt

Theres no way I am arguing with that!! ;\) (heck I dont even understand the half of it )

I just wasn't really even trying to talk about classical music thats all (I know nothing about it to be honest, yeah I know my bad but, hey it doesn't float my boat). So I was only talking about popular music cause its all I know. (Classsical is probably more flexible than I know...but, judging from some of the posts I read here from classical adult beginners, it all sounds rather strict in the quest for playing it perfectly to me?)

Don't wanna upset you or anything \:\) I'm just trying to show how a few bum notes can be okay and melodies are as flexible as I don't know what!

I am so glad as least one version was sing-a-long-able to Bob. 1 out of 5 means I'm getting better \:\)

 Quote:
You can use that second style to see if your audience is paying attention to your playing. If you start getting some weird looks, then you know they've been humming along.
funny \:\)


regards


Lee \:\)
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Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019757 - 07/26/06 11:18 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
I guess I liked the first version better, like Bob. They both still "sounded like" Blue Moon enough to know what the song was I think.
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#1019758 - 07/26/06 11:57 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
Sea -
You didn't upset me. I know what you meant. I just wanted to clarify your statement for anyone who might have gotten the wrong impression about (so-called) Classical music.
Walt

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#1019759 - 07/26/06 12:20 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Walt, next you'll be telling us that Fur Elise isn't a song. \:D

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#1019760 - 07/26/06 12:38 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
It seems like over on the Pianists board if someone even plays 1 note a bit more loudly than they thought it should then they've ruined the whole piece of music...god forbid they hit a wrong note!
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#1019761 - 07/26/06 12:51 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
I've got no problem calling Fur Elise a song (albeit w/o words). I also don't hesitate to improvise on Fur Elise when there are young people there who play it. It's very accessible and everyone recognises it, so it's a fun one to sort of bridge the gap.

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#1019762 - 07/26/06 01:37 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
Lee- first, I liked the second version, but I'm one of those weirdos who actually likes it when people "mess with" familiar stuff! lol And you really didn't toss it up too much. I have this little add-on for Media Player that tries to analyze chords and notes as something is playing, and, honestly, there wasn't a lot of odd stuff in there at all.

And to comment on both your and Walt's observations:
[on soapbox]
There is a perception problem with a very large portion of the listening public, imo. They only want to hear what they are familiar with and what they know. It is worse with those who only listen to pop music- all they know is the radio or album version and heaven forbid that a performer try to change things around at all! I am fairly active on several rock and roll forums and it is amazing how upset folk get if you even suggest that, just maybe, it would be nice to hear some of them (very talented- yeah, I know: But they play ROCK music! lol) stretch out a little. If it isn't EXACTLY note for note what they are used to hearing, it's being played "wrong." So what happens is that some very talented musicians become afraid to let loose because the audience wouldn't understand. It frustrates the heck out of me, because I get bored listening to the same old stuff, time after time... It's somewhat different in jazz, where it is almost expected that solos, in particular, will change and evolve as they are performed more and more. Classical? Well, yes, there is some room for interpretation in any given piece, but I don't think it would go over well with most classical purists to really change a given piece of music. But then, I also don't think that is the point with classical music. The basic genre is a reproduction, for lack of a better word (and I'm sure there is a better one), of the music as written by a particular composer. It's not everyone's cup of eighth notes, but then that's also why there are so many genres of music. Everyone can find what they like and appreciate most. Me? I like it all- there is very little music that I just won't listen to at all, tho there certainly is some that I like more than others. Our cd collection has a little bit of everything, and a LOT of some things. No matter what your favorite, a bit of exposure to a lot of different stuff will never hurt....

[off soapbox]
_________________________
-Mak

1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
Kawai MP-4 digital

---------------------------
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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#1019763 - 07/26/06 01:54 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
funburger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1417
the first one reminded me of a lounge, the second one sounded more like walking through a store, thats what i saw anyways, and where your music took me. i think you did a nice job of at least taking me somewhere with the music. i will have to listen again to find all those horrid mistakes you were talking about. now for my morning coffee and another listen:)
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#1019764 - 07/26/06 02:28 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
There you go Bob :p

see - Mak likes the second one and it reminded "Funb" of shopping so it was kinda passable \:\) ...heck Mak even put it thru a machine thingymajig and even the machine thinks its not too far off either!


thanks for listening


Lee \:D
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Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019765 - 07/26/06 02:31 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
keyboard samurai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 217
Loc: Hot and Humid Houston, TX
Of course, this has been a problem in Rock music for a long time. It's what Jimi Hendrix ran into head on. People wanting to hear Foxy Lady when he wanted to be experiment in the unknown areas of jazz-rock-blues fusion and improvisations.

The Grateful Dead being a possible exception in terms of popularity but they toured all the time and probably many deadheads were so busy partying that they missed some of the improvisational experimentation.

On the other hand:
The problem with much of serious music (including Classical) IMO, is that it takes rare genius to go off the reservation and still somehow maintain a possible human connection or emotional connection to a significant audience. Significant being more that yourself and/or a small core of cognoscenti who find it an interesting intellectual exercise.

It's been a while since I was up on the area but last time I looked people investigating human creativity were finding that most people were more creative when they started from more structured environments to begin with.

I wonder about this when I hear some musicians or composers go off the deep end to what starts to amount to random noise without regard to make any connection. Fun for them to play maybe, not fun to listen to.

[off soapbox]
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Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

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#1019766 - 07/26/06 02:37 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Mak you are right about the jazz thang too ;\)

If I play something really bad and someone notices (and mentions it \:\( ) I just tell 'em it was the jazz version


regards


Lee \:\)
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Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019767 - 07/26/06 02:39 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Samurai

I am pretty sure you weren't comparing my piano playing to Jimi Hendrix and his guitar there

But, hey!...I'll pretend you were


Lee \:D
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Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019768 - 07/26/06 02:43 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
funburger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1417
ok i had my husband listen to it, and he said the first one was like overlooking a city late at night after a romantic dinner, and second one felt more like wayne newton(without voice) in vegas. he said there was difinitly different feels to them.

this is my husbands thoughts. at first he said if you were trying to play the first song it was off, i said i know but listen to it and accept it that way, he did and that was the responses he gave:) so he still got a feel out of it once he accepted it as ones own version.
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#1019769 - 07/26/06 02:46 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Margareth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 99
Loc: Estonia
It's interesting that whenever I play popular music (from fake book, just improvising) for friends or at church or anywhere I don't get nervous at all because I know that even if I mess up I can recover very quickly because I know the scales very well and the chords in the scale-- so I just do whatever and get back on track - noone usually notices. But when I play classical I get more nervous and if I mess up I say - sorry (with a smile ) and then continue.
I love to play both though - they're just very different.

Seaside Lee - I have enjoyed your recordings! Thank you!
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Attitude is everything.

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#1019770 - 07/26/06 02:54 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Funburger

I've got to come round to your house for dinner

Kids climbing walls, husband hears Wayne Newton in Vegas (without a voice ) and your off walking through Department stores .

Can't for the life of me imagine it would be boring ;\)

Thanks Margareth \:D


regards


Lee \:\)
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Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019771 - 07/26/06 03:11 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
s54mo827 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 1231
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by funburger:
wayne newton (without voice) in vegas.
We saw Wayne Newton in Vegas - decent show.

Oh this isn't about that. I know that.... I'm here to concur with Seaside - and for that matter, rocky. Sure, heaven forbid you hit a clinker... well - if you're smart and know what you're doing where you're taking the song, you can make it work for you. The trick is how to do that with grace. BTW: I'm still learning ... because I do freak out when I hit wrong notes.

Lee - unable to hear your stuff on PW... could you send email me... if not too much trouble.

Shar. \:\)
_________________________
~Sharon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv7-qjprix4

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#1019772 - 07/26/06 03:22 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Shar? \:\)

 Quote:
Lee - unable to hear your stuff on PW... could you send email me... if not too much trouble.

Omly if you know the secret password ;\)


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019773 - 07/26/06 03:24 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
funburger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1417
ok, ok, seaside, when you put it that way---we are crazy!!! you are right though never a dull moment!!!
and the whole wayne newton without a voice was meant to say wayne newtons music without his voice....you know on piano.... doesnt everyone go somewhere when they hear music or are we just really really nuts???
you really dont have to answer that one
:p
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#1019774 - 07/26/06 03:28 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
nah you're just nuts \:D
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Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019775 - 07/26/06 03:33 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
s54mo827 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 1231
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Seaside_Lee:
Omly if you know the secret password ;\)
sexy? Is that the password? If not, now it is.

Waiting for my email! *whistling.. tapping my foot*..... la di da.... whistling.... ;\)
_________________________
~Sharon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv7-qjprix4

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#1019776 - 07/26/06 03:40 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
s54mo827 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 1231
Loc: New York
Personal note to Seaside_Lee.

Sorry so brazen, matey. Don't know what's come over me these past few days. Anyway, if you would please be so kind as to send me your stuff via email, I would be most grateful. Gracias! \:\)
_________________________
~Sharon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv7-qjprix4

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#1019777 - 07/26/06 04:05 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Don't worry, I took it as funny \:D

The password was "Wayne Newton"

but sexy was close enough ;\)


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019778 - 07/26/06 04:08 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
markb Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 2593
Loc: Maryland
For those of you old enough to have heard of the Moody Blues, some years back (probably around 10) they did a few tours backed by local orchestras. I was a huge fan of their music, but I just *loved* listening to them, live, with an orchestra. It added whole new dimension to their music, which was well-suited for orchestral arrangements.

I remember reading some posts on a Moody Blues forum from some avid fans who were disappointed by these shows--I suppose they thought it diluted the music or something. I don't know.

Popular music is well-suited to improvising (Just look at fakebooks--basic chord progressions, melody, but the rest is up to the musician.), but it's the listeners who get uncomfortable by straying from the formula. It's too bad.
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#1019779 - 07/26/06 04:17 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi markb

compare my music to the Moody Blues anytime you want ;\)

BTW I have just had the pleasure of listening to the Paul Anka "Rock Swings" album...and I loved the way he has taken modern songs, then sang them with the backing of an Orchestra and given them a swing feel.

Its very kool


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019780 - 07/26/06 04:21 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by markb:
For those of you old enough to have heard of the Moody Blues, some years back (probably around 10) they did a few tours backed by local orchestras. I was a huge fan of their music, but I just *loved* listening to them, live, with an orchestra. It added whole new dimension to their music, which was well-suited for orchestral arrangements.

I remember reading some posts on a Moody Blues forum from some avid fans who were disappointed by these shows--I suppose they thought it diluted the music or something. I don't know.[/b]
I believe it. I've heard musicians complain that they would love to "turn that guitar part on it's tail, but I can't because half the audience wouldn't get it." And then, they probably wouldn't come back to another show, and that's just sad...

 Quote:
Popular music is well-suited to improvising (Just look at fakebooks--basic chord progressions, melody, but the rest is up to the musician.), but it's the listeners who get uncomfortable by straying from the formula. It's too bad. [/b]
It is too bad, because it puts limitations on musicians that shouldn't be.
_________________________
-Mak

1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
Kawai MP-4 digital

---------------------------
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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#1019781 - 07/26/06 04:22 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
markb Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 2593
Loc: Maryland
Hi Lee,

I didn't realize that you're that old. ;\)
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#1019782 - 07/26/06 04:23 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Seaside_Lee:
BTW I have just had the pleasure of listening to the Paul Anka "Rock Swings" album...and I loved the way he has taken modern songs, then sang them with the backing of an Orchestra and given them a swing feel.

Its very kool

[/b]
It is a very cool album!
_________________________
-Mak

1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
Kawai MP-4 digital

---------------------------
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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#1019783 - 07/26/06 04:28 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4235
Loc: Arizona.
Lee:

I fully support your improvistaional methods 100%. As you know, "interpreting" a song is as unique as the individual performer playing it.

The finished product can sound absolutely fantastic, or it may end up sounding like alien outer-space music!

I guess it just depends on how closely the tastes and likes of the listener and the actual performer is.

I for one am very proud and fond of my interpretation of "stairway to heaven". Some people liked it, and others could not even recognize it!!.

Beuty is in the eye of the beholder and for that reason you will always get a varied response to your "improvisations".

Here in Arizona, many people like the Frank Lloyd Wright architecture found in some communities. I personally think that some of the home designs were modeled straight out of an episode of the "Jetsons"!!, again, to each his own.

I personally like your own interpretation of the song better for more reasons than just what it sounds like. Probably because you have made it "your own" as opposed to just replaying what someone else has already done!!

Mt vote is to continue down the road of interpretation, this is where the real "Sea-side Lee" shines best!!


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#1019784 - 07/26/06 04:59 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Thanks Hunky

Nice to have you back \:D

 Quote:
or it may end up sounding like alien outer-space music!
I just tell 'em that's what it was!


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019785 - 07/26/06 05:02 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4235
Loc: Arizona.
I'm not really "back"!, it's just the Ultram talking!!

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#1019786 - 07/26/06 08:00 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Kawaigirl1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 989
Loc: Toronto
Hey Seaside, can I hire you to play in my house?? I thoroughly enjoyed it!! ;\)
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flickr

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#1019787 - 07/26/06 08:51 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
funburger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1417
 Quote:
Originally posted by Seaside_Lee:
Don't worry, I took it as funny \:D

The password was "Wayne Newton"

but sexy was close enough ;\)


Lee \:\) [/b]
hahahahaha!!!! my husband got a kick out of that!!!
_________________________
If it ain't fun I ain't doin' it:)

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#1019788 - 07/26/06 08:53 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
s54mo827 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 1231
Loc: New York
Seaside -

Blue Moon bloopers 1: Still fantastic man. Your touch is amazing. I downloaded your box.net files onto my desktop and shall refer to it as a piece of inspiration.


What????? Sharon - how much and/or how many people do you garner inspiration from? Ah, funny I should ask that of myself - heck - wherever and whenever possible and from whomever is out there, they will inspire me. So from everyone and from everything... amazing..

Ah ha - I see here on Blue Moonish 2 - it's a bit more difficult to follow the tune - my ear tells me what it is only because I know ahead of time... still (Lee) very full and rich playing...

Interesting your examples: Popular music is flexible -

Cool stuff. \:D
_________________________
~Sharon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv7-qjprix4

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#1019789 - 07/27/06 06:08 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
 Quote:
hahahahaha!!!! my husband got a kick out of that!!!
:D

 Quote:
can I hire you to play in my house??
Only if you promise to cook me something nice \:\)

Btw..I think I'd rather have you round playing at mine...I have just listened to your version of "Home"...and I can't tell any difference between Davids and yours...it is stunning!! \:D


Sharon: Oh yes...music is far more flexible than you realize yet...erm...its also even more than I realize yet! \:\)

regards


Lee \:\)
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#1019790 - 07/27/06 07:10 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
ShiroKuro Offline
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Walt, I'm not sure what popular music you're thinking of, but I have to say, respectfully, that I disagree with your description of only classical music as serious music, and the implication that non-classical music is not serious. To borrow your words, I just thought some "clarification might be helpful for other beginners" that what constitutes serious music is in the ear of the beholder.

Sorry to hijack your thread Lee.
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#1019791 - 07/27/06 09:01 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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Hey Shiro

Don't be too hard on Walt...I think I know what he meant?...I get the impression he loves the classics and that is great...many people don't like pop music...I love it. I am the opposite of Walt I suppose I really don't dig too much classical (but I can appreciate why people love it so)...different strokes for different folks...if everyone liked green apples and not red ones it would be a weird world.

So getting back to the topic of the thread which was supposed to be about how flexible and bendy popular music is (someone else can start a thread on how flexible classical music can be, if they want to? ;\) ) and that if you drop a clanger or two or lose your way (when playing for an audience) it is just best to carry on regardless.

Heres another really blooper-ful version to make everyone laugh \:D

I wonder if this version will test Maks machine thingymajig to the hilt?

Blue Moon with a heap of bloopers!!


Lee \:\)
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#1019792 - 07/27/06 09:24 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
ShiroKuro Offline
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Lee, thanks. I don't seem to have very much "subtlty" or "gentleness" in my tool box today. I'll go back edit myself. (a little bit)
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#1019793 - 07/27/06 09:29 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
psychopianoman Offline
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I enjoyed all of your playing. I regard all music as serious by the way, especially when it is improvised with passion. I look forward to hearing more.
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#1019794 - 07/27/06 09:38 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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 Quote:
I don't seem to have very much "subtlty" or "gentleness" in my tool box today
Its probably that new hair-do Shiro
 Quote:
I regard all music as serious by the way, especially when it is improvised with passion
Psycho..I know you do ;\) but, I was just in a daft mood this morning and I was only trying to see if I could break Mak's machine \:\)

 Quote:
I look forward to hearing more.
More bloopy stuff???

BTW I also liked your second version best in the piano bar...but, the first one was really chinesey (is that a word?) and very kool


Lee \:D
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#1019795 - 07/27/06 09:47 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
rocky Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Seaside_Lee:

Heres another really blooper-ful version to make everyone laugh \:D
Umm...maybe I just have really bad hearing or something....but.....I don't hear any freakin bloopers!

:::thinkin to self....I need to find mr_super_hunky's old rusty pipe and hit Lee upside the head:::

:::thinkin to self again....yikes!...quit thinkin like that...you know you aren't a violent person::::

:::thinkin to self one more time....Lee really does play the piano very nicely:::::

\:D
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#1019796 - 07/27/06 09:52 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
ShiroKuro Offline
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No no, the hair is getting down tomorrow (at a very early hour!) Today I was fighting with my closets! :rolleyes:

Obviously taking myself much too seriously! \:D
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#1019797 - 07/27/06 09:59 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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A-Ha its the closets that are to blame

Heaven help us tommorrow...yikes!


Rocky are you seriously telling me that you cannot tell that I play so many duff melody notes as it goes a-long ...you are freaking me out man?


Lee \:\)
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#1019798 - 07/27/06 10:09 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
psychopianoman Offline
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Seaside, I think you hit all the wrong notes at the right time.
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#1019799 - 07/27/06 10:16 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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 Quote:
Seaside, I think you hit all the wrong notes at the right time
ROFL!!

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#1019800 - 07/27/06 10:42 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
rocky Offline
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I just listened again and really tried to pay attention, but I seriously think it sounded very good.

Hmm...maybe that's why I don't think my playing is so bad is because I can't hear the mistakes...or maybe I just enjoy the music as a whole and my ear forgives any mistakes...I don't know.....
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#1019801 - 07/27/06 10:54 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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rocky

I'll let you in on a little secret ...as soon as a few more people have heard it ;\)

I'm surprised no-one has asked me yet?


But, maybe no-one wants to know?


regards


Lee \:\)

I'll wait 'til someone asks ;\)
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#1019802 - 07/27/06 11:09 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
markb Offline
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As much as calling classical music (in the broad sense of classical) "serious" music assigns a negative connotation to other types of music, the term "popular" music implies that classical music is unpopular, which is also a negative connotation.

Maybe someone here can come up with non-judgmental replacements for the terms "serious" and "popular" music.
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#1019803 - 07/27/06 11:16 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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How about

red apple and green apple music?


BTW this thread isn't about what's best or anything?...sheesh


Maybe I should change the title to "Bloopers are fun!!"


That "popular" in the title seems to be being taken the wrong way? \:\(


Lee \:\)
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#1019804 - 07/27/06 11:39 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
psychopianoman Offline
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Popular does not imply anything when you understand how it is used as a musical term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music

On the other hand I have yet to find serious used as a musical definition.

Popular can imply a negative connotation when it is taken as literal as in, well, popular. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popularity

Popular has its own meaning when connected to music IMO.

I am only one person though and as there are millions of people there will be millions of views.

I think seaside lee was just wanting to show how forgiving music can be in the pop context as opposed to the classical context (I would even include New Age music like Winston, Nevue, Lanz) because if you hit wrong notes or chords it sounds bad and if it does not sound bad it is very noticable.

If you play Nevue's Overcome and hit a wrong note it sounds like a train wreck. Certain parts of Moonlight Sonata sound horrible if the wrong note is hit. The same is true for any part of music that is very melodic.

Pop music is played a bit differently. You still keep the melody note as the top note to bring it out more but you can play a triad, seventh, ninth, eleventh, or a thirteenth as long as the melody note remains on top.

Once you get like Seaside, you can hit all the wrong notes at the right time because in pop music you end up just making bigger chords by hitting the wrong notes.

This is a very easy explanation because there are some rules that need to be followed but I am only trying to convey the theory behind it.
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#1019805 - 07/27/06 11:40 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
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Well, I hate to tell you this, Lee, but I have to agree with Rocky. It just doesn't sound "bad" at all. And I can also tell you that my plug-in tells me that you are pretty solidly starting in Db and then the only other key that shows up regularly is Bb m, which is the relative minor of Db, so you are NOT going off by a whole lot. Any "mistakes" are covered very nicely with the surrounding music. I liked this one, too!
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1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
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When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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#1019806 - 07/27/06 11:56 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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grrrr! that machine....LOL
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#1019807 - 07/27/06 11:59 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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Loc: Blackpool, UK
psycho is close to the secret, but it is even simpler and easier than that :rolleyes: .
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#1019808 - 07/27/06 12:00 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
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Ah, semantics! lol Both terms, popular and classical, have both negative and positive aspects. And neither is perfect as a description of musical genres. They are, in truth, far too broad for classification. The problem lies in the widely accepted (and often wrong, imo) opinion that "classical" music is for serious students (or listeners) who want to spend a long time studying and learing. And "popular" music is somehow easier, both to learn and to listen to. The truth probably lies somewhere in between. There are "difficult" and "accessible" pieces in all types of music. A lot depends on your own attitude and taste.

There is a side to classical music that does foster the distinction, however. And I don't mean to dis classical music at all- I enjoy a lot of it and own a fair number of recordings of what would be considered classical music. But there is a mindset that says you do not take a Bach Prelude or a Chopin mazurka and improv away on it. And that, right or wrong (and that's a whole 'nother debate!), can and does give classical music a certain attitude of "stuffiness" to some[/b]. And at the other end, there is an expectation, particularly with certain areas of popular music, that expects the performer to do what Lee has been doing with Blue Moon- mess around, change it up, never play it the same way twice. Is one Right and the other intrinscally Wrong? No, I don't think so. Is one perhaps more to my (or your or his or her) taste? Oh, yeah. And there's room for all of it.

Oh, and if I want to mess with that Bach Prelude, I just might.... I just won't play it for some people I know.... ;\) \:\)
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1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
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#1019809 - 07/27/06 12:56 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
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Loc: West Virginia
Hi Shiro et al,
I hate the term 'serious music' for just the reasons you pointed out. That's why I apologize whenever I use it. But, 'serious music' is a term used to describe the works of master composers from all of musical history as opposed to just the Classical Era (which is actually just 'serious music' from @1750 - to @1825). Technically, the music of Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Bach, Scarlatti, Webern, etc. is not Classical (in that it is not from the period 1750 - 1825). I don't like the term (serious music) because it seems to imply that 'popular music' is not serious - which of course is not necessarily true (look at Billy Holiday's 'Strange Fruit'). I'm the first to point out that, in the simplest of terms, all music is for 'fun'. The greatest concert artist chose his profession because he loves to do it. Composers love to compose. We love to talk about music here w/our fellow music lovers. It all comes down to 'fun'. While the word 'fun' may imply to some a superficial sort of pleasure, I like to use the term because we all can relate to it, and it brings all of our varied musical interests and levels of proficiency onto the same plane. I love to play classical music and I love to play popular music. Best of all, I love to play w/it! I don't mean to de-value popular music in any way, but the fact is that it is designed to be easily accessible to the average person. It can be composed by people just like us, and many of the popular musicians and composers that we enjoy have very basic musical skills. The treatment of chord progressions is basic, the use of time signature is basic, melodies are catchy but not complex, the textures are not particularly diverse. That's why we like popular music. It was created so that we can understand it, play it, and even create it. Those are all good things. On the other hand, so-called serious music is created by uniquely gifted, master composers who have years of intense study. Their music is often less accessible (many of us have decided that we don't care for 'classical music' w/o realizing the depth and breadth of it) and even playing it requires training. Much of this music is written to test the limits of common practice tonality, form, texture, color, meter, etc.. In short, it is designed for a different audience than is modern popular music. And that's good too. I should point out that prior to @the 1950's, the great composers wrote both the 'Serious Music' (music of greater musical sophistication) and the 'Popular Music' (music for the average person to dance to, sing, and play) of their day. As a result, the higher levels of their music was more accessible (the public of the 1920's knew Gershwin's popular music. They knew they 'liked' Gershwin. As a result, they drew no clear delineation between his popular and his serious music and were more receptive to his entire body of work). Today's popular music creators are not 'serious' (again I apologize for the term) composers. As a result our popular music is not the same level musically as it was when great composer's were writing both the serious music and our popular music. As a result, the music that we are most familiar with today is even further removed musically from 'serious music' than in the past. Couple that w/the line we've drawn between popular song writers and 'master' composers and you arrive at the present state where many people say , 'I don't like classical music'. In short, in the past if one liked the popular music of Beethoven, he/she could say, 'I like Beethoven' and would have access to all of his work. Today we say, 'I like Motley Crue, (or Lead Zep, or James Taylor, or Van Morrison, or Madonna, or Aqualung, etc.)' and there is no higher level above their popular music. Therefore, it's easy for the average person to draw a distinction between the music they like and music that is nearly inaccessable.
I acknowledge that I'm speaking in generalities. I realize that many of the terms I've used may set up defensive reactions in some readers. My use of them is only to communicate my ideas and I don't intend them to contain any inherent negative connotations. People are individuals and have various views, varied tastes, and varied musical interests and abilities. Bacause popular music is designed to appeal to the average consumer doesn't take anything away from our enjoyment of it or from it's significance in our society. So, different strokes for different folks and most important remember - it's all about 'fun'!

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#1019810 - 07/27/06 01:16 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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See...he's not all bad ;\)

Walt, I have to say though I am stunned to hear that there is something on a higher level than Madonna


Seriously I knew where you were coming from \:\)

However, I think you are closing in on funburgers longest paragraph in the history of the world ever record there ;\)


I really need to change the title of this thread to "bloopers are fun!"

its getting waaaaaaaaaay too deep!!!


Lee \:\)
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#1019811 - 07/27/06 01:33 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
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Hi Irish,
It is very common for accomplished musicians to create their own versions of pieces in the standard repetoire. Many of these 'alternate' arrangements have been published and are also in the standard repetoire. It is also very common to improvise in 'serious' (again, I mean no offense by the term) music. Not only do we love to hear live improvisations from great concert artists, but many pieces have sections in them (the cadenzas) that are left open by the composer for improvisation by the soloist. Music of the baroque era was written using figured bass which served a similar function to our modern lead sheets. Improvising was required to realise the figured bass. Each performer would use the information differently - adding his own embellishments based upon his interpretation of the piece and what was going on (musically) around him. Bach was famous for his improvising as was Liszt and more famous names than I could possibly mention.
I think that the general public has the mistaken idea that classical music must be performed in a very strict note-cast-in-stone manner because of the tremendous study involved. Mastery of the craft/art requires strict attention to becoming proficient in the details of technique, theory, musical style periods, and the master works of the repetoire. The student is required to strive for note perfect performance before being allowed to take liscence. And, there is much less forgiveness in the improvisation of 'Serious' music. Those who do so are expected to maintain a level of musical complexity that would otherwise be composed. Because it takes very gifted musicians to do this, the average person most often hears faithful renditions of the repetoire. But even when a performer attempts to perfectly interpret the specific notes of the score there is tremendous lattitude regarding note values, volume, realization of ornaments, and passages reserved by the composer entirely for the performer to display his abilities. No two renditions of a 'concert hall' (I hope this is less offensive than the dreaded 'serious' - although it's equally mis-leading) piece are the same. Some interpretations are readily accepted, some are very controversial. Best of all, there is no consensus and the debate is often heated.
I hope that, rather than offending anyone, my post may cause readers to re-think their concept that so-called classical music is stodgy. It is comprised of every imaginable concept regarding the organisation (and lack of organisation) of sound. Anyone who decides to explore the far reaches of it will be amazed at the vibrance and diversity of it.
Best musical wishes to all,
Walt

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#1019812 - 07/27/06 01:36 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
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Seaside,
I knew that you understood my intentions. Bottom line - it's all for fun! And it's more fun because we're able to share our differing views w/each other!!
Walt

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#1019813 - 07/27/06 01:44 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
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Lee- don't you DARE go changing this topic around!!! LOL I like fun, but I do enjoy a serious conversation now and again and I think we are getting some good insights here! (But don't stop recoridng your "bloopers"- they are great!)
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1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
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#1019814 - 07/27/06 01:46 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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I'm all for fun \:D ...Uncle Walt \:\)


Lee

right...back to

"Bloopers Are Fun"!!
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#1019815 - 07/27/06 01:53 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
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Walt-

You make some excellent points. And I did not mean to imply that I think there is no room at all for any sort of artistic interpretation or even improvisation in "serious" music (I don't like that term, either, but I don't have a better one!). Just as a quick example, in my own collection, I have 3 recordings of Tchaikowsky's 1st Piano Concerto (which has always been a favorite), and, yes, absolutley, all three are different. To the point that there is one I love, one I can listen to, and the third? Well, let's just say I listened to it twice- just to be sure- and haven't played it again... But that is just my taste- you may differ and that's perfectly ok.

It's that darned talking in generalities that gives the problems, I think. All I was trying to say was that there is a perception among a portion of people who are more grounded in popular music that classical IS stuffy and stodgy and "not to be messed with." It's not true in many ways, but it persists. And that all this serious music requires one to study and learn all about the technical ins and outs of music to appreciate it. Hogwash! The real problem is that so many people dismiss certain types of music (serious, jazz, whatever) because "I wouldn't understand it." So? If you listen and LIKE it, isn't that all that really should matter? If it inspires you to learn more, fine. But there is validity in just listening and enjoying.
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1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
Kawai MP-4 digital

---------------------------
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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#1019816 - 07/27/06 02:05 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
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Irish,
Absolutely! Hopefully our conversation will get someone curious enough to question their views and explore areas to which they weren't previously receptive. Finding music that intrigues you is the first step (and the tip of the ice-berg). How much one pursues the 'ins and outs' of it is needs based. However, in both popular and 'the other kind of music' (lol) the stories behind the music add enormously to the appreciation of the music itself.

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#1019817 - 07/27/06 03:16 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
psychopianoman Offline
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w_scott; thanks for all that great info! Where can a person learn this kind of information? My mind has been challenged. Great stuff.
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#1019818 - 07/27/06 03:48 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Hobie Offline
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Seaside

I'll take a few guesses on your secret.

It is that when you hit the wrong notes with the right feeling/rhythms they sound right?

How about this: The true "identity" of a song lies in its melody. If you play the melody there are endless ways to get creative with the harmony (chords). You may alter their rhythms, even changing the chord itself as long as it enhances and works with the melody.

Also, even if you forget and blooper the melody once in a while, as long as enough of it has been stated and the tune is familiar to the listeners, they will "listen through" the wrong notes because they are hearing them in their heads. It is almost like a kind of amnesia, since when asked afterwards most will reply they heard no noticable mistakes.

Also if you are playing in public, the more facial expressions of concentration and inner bliss you can make, the better everyone thinks you sound!

Oh yeah...MUSIC is flexible. It isn't just popular music, but all music. The main thing is that music has to be...well...musical. So you can't just make obviously unmusical mistakes...pounding wrong notes loudly and with poor rhythm is never OK. The ability for us to make music, to listen and be influenced, to stretch out with our imaginations and express ourselves is the essence of music, IMO.

People listening will always hear in a positive light any musician who does this.

Because piano music is so diverse, it offers many ways to enjoy making it, from a strict interpretation of Bach to Seaside Lee and others like him.

That's what's so cool about it.
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#1019819 - 07/27/06 04:16 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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Yeah not a bad guess Hobie (still you were actually barred form the quiz see-ing as you are a piano teacher )

the secret is this...

Once you have firmly established the melody in the ear of the listener and as long as you keep the rhythm and the chords going you can play lots of wrong notes as long as you are still speaking the rhythm of the words ;\) .

Kinda fun I think


And really easy when you know how


spoil sport \:D


Lee \:\)
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#1019820 - 07/27/06 05:07 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
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Oh yeah and Hobie

You are right about the chords too (you're just too kool )

Yes, substitute and hidden chords can also be used to replace the correct chords to give a melody a different flavour \:D

The more you learn about this stuff the more freedom you have.

Playing loud and proud is also good if you goof up as it makes people think it was definitely deliberate.

And Hobie is quite right too about facial expressions ;\)


Just incase anyone missed the blooper file in question as it got lost in our wonderful debate about the flexibility of all music ....yes go on then!...even "fussy old classical" ((joke))...here it is again:-

Blue Moon with an unusual melody the further you go \:\)

Lee \:\)
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#1019821 - 07/27/06 06:21 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Hobie Offline
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Seaside
I know...I'm cool.

You'll probably be reading this tommorow morning unless you are really a night-owl.

I listened to your Blue Moon and you are getting better since the last recording of yours I heard.

Why don't you play the break for that song...you know: "Then suddenly appeared before me..." and it goes through another chord change. Do you have that? I can PM you a chart if you don't. I think just going 'round and 'round with the Blue Moon melody can get old no matter how good you are at changing it up. Just my humble opinion. Also your fills are almost all chord rolls...why not throw a scale run in there with your RH? I would suggest the A blues scale which gives you a nice pentatonic feel with the slide off the flatted third. The notes for the A blues scale go: A, C, D, D#, E, G, A.

I hope you got that!

I love your playing and you are making amazing progress in a short time.

Spoil Sport....*snort* hahaha:)
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#1019822 - 07/27/06 06:34 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Bob Muir Offline
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Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Hey Hobie, great pointers!

I'm curious, you called that a break... can you describe the difference between a break, a bridge, and a verse? Are they distinctly different somehow, or is it more vague and interchangable?

Also, you picked an A blues scale, is that because of the key Lee played the song in or is it just a generic scale to use for filler?

Thanks!

Bob

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#1019823 - 07/27/06 06:59 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
bach1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 94
Loc: pismo beach
Regarding Classical as "serious" music and popular as everything else seems to me to make sense. Everytime we visit a friends home where one of the kids plays piano or at our house everyone has to stop what they are doing to listen little Mary or billy play "Fur Elise" or brag about the recent recital. When an adult plays something classical, it sounds like just want to show off. But at a party, when someone is playing some jazz or country music or whatever, at the piano, then everyone seems to not only be enjoying themselves, but are also taking part of whats going on by singing, dancing, or whatever.

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#1019824 - 07/28/06 01:32 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Hobie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 475
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Bob

I'll try to answer your question! It's not totally black and white, but here goes.

A break can be called a change as well. It describes situations like in the one in Blue Moon. 80% of this song is the well known melody section, "Blue moon....you saw me standing alone...etc." Then the song goes to a distinct chordal change for a short verse: "then suddenly appeared be-fore me...the one my heart would always..." it goes on to end with "and when I looked the moon had turned to gold!" then it walks back down to the main part again. I forget all the lyrics, but it is a nice change.

Many pop and jazz songs have this. In "Georgia on my Mind", the break is the part that goes, "other arms reach out to me....other eyes smile tenderly..etc." In Stevie Wonder's "Superstition" there's the main groove, "Very superstitious..." it goes for a while then get to the part, "If you believe in things you don't understand.." That is the change or break.

A bridges are similar, in fact sometimes used as a synonym to breaks. More often than not, bridges tend to be a series of chords that take the song to another section sometimes including a key change. For example, "Layla" by Eric Clapton there is the first instrumental section that sets the tone with guitar riffs. Right before he begins singing, "What will you do when you get lonely?" there are 3 really distinct chords that walk up and make the key change less abrupt. That is a bridge.

A verse is a lyric to be sung. If a song has a set of lyrics to start the song those are verses. Most songs use a verse-chorus-verse-chorus arrangement of some kind. A chorus usually uses the same words while verses change each time. Think about the song, "Midnight Train to Georgia" There's the verses...I think the first one is "LA..proved too much for the man" it goes on until the chorus, "He's leavin'...On a midnight train to Georgia" Then back to a different verse, "He kept dreamin'...that someday he'd be a star" etc. then back to the chorus. There are millions of examples, think, "Hard Rain's a-gonna Fall" by Bob Dylan. The verses are all start with a variation on the question, "where have you been my blue eyed son..." while the chorus is, "and it's a hard...it's a hard...it's a hard... it's a hard rain...a-gonna fall"

Regarding the A blues scale, no it is not a generic filler scale. I did not check but I assume Lee played that song in the key of C. If you use the A blues scale and instead of trying to center the scale on the key of A, you play those notes in the context of the key of C. Like this: play C, D, D#, E, G, A, then C again. That is basically a pentatonic scale with a little roll off of the D# to E, a nice move in lots of pop songs. I associate those notes with the A blues scale, since that's the same pattern.

This works for certain kinds of songs (like Blue Moon). I use this trick in all 12 keys...using a blues scale to replicate a pentatonic scale because I like the way my "little roll" creates fluidity in my riffs. You can locate these useful blues scales in the same way you find relative minor keys, by counting down 3 half-steps from the song's key. Therefore a song in G could use the E blues scale for this same effect. You will have to figure out what songs this works for, all I can say is that they are the "prettier" ones!

Damn you, Bob! You ask a simple question, and I wrote a frikkin' book!

Hope that helps.
Hobie
_________________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Groucho Marx

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#1019825 - 07/28/06 01:59 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Thanks Hobie, books are frikkin' great! However, even with a book, I'm still a little fuzzy on the difference between a bridge and a verse. So a verse would be if the song starts out with a verse and then goes to a chorus. While a bridge would be when a songs starts out on a chorus and then uses a single "bridge" between choruses, right?

For example, Misty is A-A-B-A, so the B is considered the bridge?

While Midnight train has something like A-B-A-B-A-and then some funky ending(C?)?

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#1019826 - 07/28/06 09:05 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Hobie

 Quote:
Seaside
I know...I'm cool.
To be honest Hobie...I wish you lived near me cause I'd definitely come to you for lessons...you're so flippin' kool I reckon I could pick your brains for hours and I'd never stop until you showed me every kool trick in your book \:\)


 Quote:
You'll probably be reading this tommorow
yup

 Quote:
I listened to your Blue Moon and you are getting better since the last recording of yours I heard.
I'll take it...I'll take it...thankyou \:D

 Quote:
Why don't you play the break for that song...you know: "Then suddenly appeared before me..."
1. I was only trying to show how a mistake can sound good and was comparing it over and over with the same line/s ;\)

2. I couldn't remember how that bit goes and if I can't remember how the melody goes? I can't play it...I shall listen to a recording and see if I can figure it out, thanks \:\)

 Quote:
Also your fills are almost all chord rolls...why not throw a scale run in there with your RH?
I'd never thought of doing it to be honest, (but...know you've pointed it out... I'll try it)

Please don't forget I've only been playing for 2 years and nine months (from absolutely nothing ;\) ) and I've even spent the last six months (since Mike kicked my butt and then *you*...erm...politely mentioned it and then Mike went and kicked my butt some more) trying to get myself to play in rhythm, I'm not there yet but, I think I'm starting to get a feel for it, finally!!

Hobie, I've got lots to learn and many questions to ask Mike yet...I'm getting there in my own sweet way.

Thanks for taking the time to listen and for the help, as always...


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019827 - 07/28/06 09:41 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Frank_W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 1047
Loc: United States
 Quote:
Originally posted by Seaside_Lee:
[QB]To be honest Hobie...I wish you lived near me cause I'd definitely come to you for lessons...
Ditto. \:\)
_________________________
Compassion, Love, Strength, Peace, Dignity, Balance, Order

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#1019828 - 07/28/06 10:18 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
psychopianoman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Oklahoma
I look at a bridge like a literal bridge. If I am driving down the road and come to a river and there is not a bridge it is going to be a tough ride to the other side but the bridge makes it easy and smooth.

It serves the same purpose in music. It allows you to move from one area to the next area smoothly, otherwise it could sound somewhat abrupt. The abrupt feeling often is not from it sounding rough but from the lack of contemplation you get without the bridge. Often the bridge is used to contrast the verse or prepare the people listening for the climax of the song.

The bridge is like a time of reflection, to prepare you for whats on the other side.

It may sound crazy but I am finding that college writing, comp., and psychology are a great addition to the music education. When you understand the flow of writing and the way the mind often opporates then you can apply this to music and have something that really grabs people.

I hope this does not add confusion. This is not a full explanation but just a side that my weird mind sees.
_________________________
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#1019829 - 07/28/06 10:59 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Hobie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 475
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Lee,

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, I know you have only been playing for 2 years. You obviously have a knack for music and I was pleasantly surprised to hear how much progress you have made. Blue moon really sounded nice, and I detected that your melody was being enriched by using another parallel note...perhaps a sixth? Your playing is becoming fuller and more "open". I think you are doing great. BTW, when you use the A blues scale try and keep the melody in your head and make your own melodic ideas all the while flirting with the actual melody or it's rhythms.

Bob,
No. In Misty B is considered the change or the break, IMO. There is another definition of a break, where the music has an abrupt rest. Like in Great Balls of Fire..."You broke my will!" *break* "Oh what a thrill" *break* "Goodness, gracious, great balls of fire!"

To be simplistic, verses are lyrics. For example Misty..."Look at me..I'm as helpless as a kitten up a tree" that is a verse. Most musicians will play the melody note from the verse if they can't or won't sing.

It does not matter what words a song starts with. Once in a while a song will start with the chorus, but most of the time it is the verse. A chorus is normally repeated with the same words, while a verse changes each time. This has no bearing on bridges. Verses and choruses are simply lyrics.

I am a gigging musician and I deal with musical jargon...and it changes from musician to musician. In my little world, a bridge is a modulation of chords, usually targeting a new key or chord that takes the song into a new section. Some songs just drop right onto the new section, but others use longer transitions. These transitions are usually called bridges. Think about the Wizard of OZ song, If I only had a Brain. It has the opening verse, "I'd while away the hours...confering with the flowers...consultin' with the rain" it goes for a while, then right before it gets to the "Oh I...could tell you why...."there is a funny little chord change. This is a bridge.

I know it is easy to get confused. I hope that that helps.

Frank, Thanks

Psychopianoman...good analogy.
_________________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Groucho Marx

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#1019830 - 07/28/06 11:10 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
Psycopianoman,
I think you've got a great first step to learning the 'ins and outs' right here - discussion w/your musical peers, and following up (researching) the things that interest or puzzle you. In your pursuit I'd recommend that you always keep an open mind, but listen critically and strive to make value judgements. At first reading that might seem like encouragement to make judgements about other people's values, but that's definately not the intention. Let me explain. You always want to listen critically (to both music and conversation) not to criticise the source, but to determine what has value for you. When you hear anyone play (or share their thoughts) in public, you first have to acknowledge and appreciate that they are sharing something personal and very special. And they do this despite creating vulnerability for themselves. That alone calls for our respect and our generousity in our treatment of the performer (or speaker). Beyond that point, however, you want to dissect everything about the performance (or conversation) so you can make decisions about what has value FOR YOU. If the performer flubs a passage, you can think about what was difficult about it, how could that performer have avoided the problem, how could you have avoided it. Does his interpretation make you question (or reaffirm) your views about the piece. How about his/her stage composure - how would that work for you. Is it appropriate or distracting. Etc, etc.. You can learn something from everyone. Even (especially) when their approach or view is different from your own. By thinking through their approach w/an open mind, you may expand your view or you may strengthen your differing opinion. Don't get me wrong. You don't want to take things so seriously that you suck the 'fun' out of it. It's perfectly allright to laugh at things that are funny (even at the expense of the performer), and it's essential to have lively (even heated) discussions w/companions regarding the music or topic of the moment. We too often forget that music is a social thing. It is linked to sharing on so many levels - performer to audience, teacher to pupil, companion to companion, etc.. It's a shame that so much music instruction involves talking about it in a classroom. The classroom experience can be invaluable but this is really music out of context. Music classes should include in their syllabus efforts to teach students about music in it's proper social environment. I'm getting off the track, but I think it's important to remember that music is social entertainment. To forget that is missing the point. Now to address my other statement regarding making value judgements. It sounds as though making value judgements is a negative thing. It's not! It's essential for us to determine what OUR values are and to assess the ideas we come into contact w/to see how they fit (or don't fit) or how they must be altered to fit into our value systems. Everyone should be challenged to question their values and make value judgements regarding the concepts (musical or otherwise) to which they are exposed. However, the most important thing to remember is that these (your) values apply only to you. The making of value judgements only becomes a negative if you believe that the values that you've established are universal and apply to anyone other than yourself. I guess I can sum up all of this rambling by saying that I believe we should strive to be open minded, generous, tolerant of differing views, and serious about developing (and practicing) our personal values.
Wow - a lot of words just to say that you should first make the most of the musical resources that are presently available to you.
The second thing I'd advise would be to look for musical resources that you may not previously have considered - take a college music class, attend the receptions following concerts, go to secondary school music functions (they are unbelievably varied now and some are extremely good).
I'm too windy, I know, but I hope there is something here you can use (or discard - as the case may be).
Walt

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#1019831 - 07/28/06 11:14 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
 Quote:
You obviously have a knack for music
No, he has a knack for playing his keyboard 37 hours a day. When you do that for over two years, it gives the appearance of having a knack for music. \:D

 Quote:
it changes from musician to musician
Yep, I think I'm getting that. It probably depends on what you've been taught, or what those around you consistently say. If someone called the B section of Misty the bridge, you'd know exactly what they were talking about.

Thanks Hobie and Psych!

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#1019832 - 07/28/06 11:20 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
Hobie-

I know the terminology gets confusing and sometimes people use the same term for different things, so this may just be one of those times.... But isn't a bridge sometimes used to break up the monotony (for lack of a better term) of the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-verse-chorus.... etc? I'm thinking of Sondheim's Send In The Clowns.

You have the first couple verses:

Isn't it rich? Are we a pair.... Send in the clowns(1st verse)
Isn't it bliss? Don't you approve?.... Send in the clowns (2nd verse)


And then it goes into what I've always thought of as a bridge:
Just when I stopped opening doors
Finally knowing the one that I wanted was yours
Making my entrance again with my usual flair
Sure of my lines - no one is there


And back to the closing verses. Or would you think of that part as something else? Or is it just a terminology thing?
_________________________
-Mak

1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
Kawai MP-4 digital

---------------------------
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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#1019833 - 07/28/06 11:35 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
Hobie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 475
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Mak

Yes...that also could be called a bridge. I would probably call that a change or break, but I would understand if someone called that a bridge...and I would know what they meant. In my "little world" I just want to be able to make a distinction in the different parts of a song...especailly when talking about it with other musicians. If music is made up of patterns, it sure helps to call those patterns something. Everyone has their own internal way of understanding music. Things get a little harder when a bunch of musicians get together and try to speak a common language.

PS I am much better at explaining things while sitting down at the piano!
_________________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Groucho Marx

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#1019834 - 07/28/06 11:40 AM Re: Popular music is flexible
IrishMak Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
Thanks! Yeah, I know it's sometimes hard to define terms. I learned that from my years singing.... \:\)
_________________________
-Mak

1889 Mason & Hamlin screwstringer upright
Kawai MP-4 digital

---------------------------
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and add some of your own. Stupid life.

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#1019835 - 07/28/06 12:20 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
 Quote:
No, he has a knack for playing his keyboard 37 hours a day
Pssst...don't tell anyone in the "practise log club"...they may blow a gasket!!!


\:D
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1019836 - 07/28/06 02:30 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
psychopianoman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Oklahoma
Walt, good info once again.
_________________________
pianolessonaddicts.com

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#1019837 - 07/28/06 03:48 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
S_L,

I've been very much enjoying the development shown in your demos. You might want to think about an arrangement which begins with a straightforward presentation of the melody, uses the second demo as the bridge, and the first demo as the return to the melody.

BTW, next week I'll post a review of Scott Houston and Bradley Sowash's The Next Step. One of its best features is a road map for consructing an arrangement. Hope you'll have the time to comment.

DavidH

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#1019838 - 07/28/06 04:59 PM Re: Popular music is flexible
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
David

If you like Scotts newest thang...I'll surely buy it \:\) ...I'm a sucker for buying piano courses :rolleyes:

 Quote:
You might want to think about an arrangement which begins with a straightforward presentation of the melody, uses the second demo as the bridge, and the first demo as the return to the melody.
yeah, I like the sound of that ...I have just got to get these rhythm foibles (AKA "Seaside_Lee Affliction 2") sorted out first ;\)

Lee \:D
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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