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#1028883 - 10/22/07 06:12 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
Mistaya Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 185
Loc: Alberta
Is the Freidheim edition what you'd recommend? I have the Koenemann edition with essentially no fingering help. I will still run this by my teacher, because I will need her help. If she looks at me in disbelief and whacks me on the head - I will likely have to rethink whether I can pull off a credible performance (of 25.2).
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#1028884 - 10/22/07 06:25 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
Friedheim is excellent for fingering.

I would advise staying away from Mikuli. His fingerings are unnatural and represent, imo, the basest of Nineteenth Century tendencies toward mechanization of the human person. In 25/8, for example, he has in one place the RH thumb playing twelve successive notes!

Friedheim was a pupil of Liszt's. His edition provides natural fingerings - in some places (in 25/6 anyway) even offering alternative fingerings.

His forward is enjoyable, too.
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#1028885 - 10/22/07 06:28 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
LiszThalberg Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3288
I've got the Mikuli. It's alright, although I'm definatly going to look for a new edition. Some of those fingerings are strange on the arps in 10/1.

Matt

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#1028886 - 10/22/07 10:47 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
Mistaya Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 185
Loc: Alberta
Thanks, Gerg and Matt - I'll have a look. I definitely want to get the fingering right from the beginning.

Caroline
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#1028887 - 10/22/07 11:03 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
Pederewski Edition is considered by the Warsaw competition judges to be the best of the best, but 99% of it is probably the same across all editions, and Friedheim is a good all-around version without a lot of accents, ornaments, etc. that aren't part of the composer's original music. (25/1 seems to be a magnet for editors' added accent and expression marks.)

Whichever edition we use, it is the amount of work we put into the pieces that will make the real difference.
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#1028888 - 10/23/07 10:03 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
YD... We need to trade... I'm afraid of 25.11...
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#1028889 - 10/23/07 10:14 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1821
Loc: Connecticut
If anyone wants the Cortot Edition of both sets, send me a PM.

I have the very hard to find English translation of the original French.

It includes extensive fingering and scores and scores of little exercises that isolate the technical problems in each Etude.

Cortot was Mikuli's student.


Mel
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#1028890 - 10/23/07 11:16 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
chopin952 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/06
Posts: 492
Loc: North Carolina
I use the Dover Paderewski Edition that says "Edited by Carl Mikuli". Is there a separate Mikuli edition by another publisher? I like the fingering in many of the études except maybe 10/4. I'd be interested in checking out the Cortot edition.

Can you give an example of fingering distinctions that make a significant difference?
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#1028891 - 10/23/07 11:17 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by playadom:
YD... We need to trade... I'm afraid of 25.11... [/b]
What, cold feet already...?? From you...??? You can do it, really; your fingers are fast enough; I've heard them. It's one full year out. You can still take 25/10, right?

Anyway, I will start 25/11 in addition to 25/12 (with which, I am afraid, I've already fallen in love), and see how it goes. Why not do this: take 25/10, and start 25/11 at the same time. Then, closer to the recital, let's compare our progress and see what turns out to be our best effort for the recital.

BTW, 25/12 is also a pretty tough one, so difficulty-wise it's about the same as 25/11. I got to measures 20-40, and can tell you that Kandzia was right: that'll take a long while to master...
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#1028892 - 10/23/07 11:40 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
I've never thought of 25/12 as being that hard. Comparing difficulty, I got the first 2 measures of 25/12 in 20 minutes. I can't even play the right-hand part of 25/11 at half tempo, and definitely not from memory. Although if 25/12 is anything like 25/11, the first few bars say *nothing* about the rest of the piece...
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#1028893 - 10/23/07 12:10 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
10/11 is a good one for those with big hands.

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#1028894 - 10/23/07 12:20 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by playadom:
I've never thought of 25/12 as being that hard. Comparing difficulty, I got the first 2 measures of 25/12 in 20 minutes. I can't even play the right-hand part of 25/11 at half tempo, and definitely not from memory. Although if 25/12 is anything like 25/11, the first few bars say *nothing* about the rest of the piece... [/b]
Hah, same thing here: got measures 1-14 (almost) up to speed in 2 days, and thought to myself "what's the big deal here...???" Wait till you get to measures 20-40.
Oh, it's definitely doable for me, similar in difficulty to 10/12, maybe just a bit harder...
I tinkered around with 25/11 a bit; the right hand fingering is uncomfortable, but so was 10/12; one gets used to it as the time goes by. Just keep playing it slowly. Note, speed is really the only issue here, as there are almost no wide jumps or tough stretches, and I'd say half speed (which is equivalent to quarter=103 in this case) is very unreasonable to start with. I'd start at quarter=80, or even slower; otherwise it'll get mushed together without defined melodic lines. Did you notice implied melodies in every second note in those right hand passages? Thy accenting them strongly, that puts some structure into right hand playing (you can get rid of them later).
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FWIW; YMMV

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#1028895 - 10/23/07 12:29 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
silla Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 65
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by LisztAddict:
10/11 is a good one for those with big hands. [/b]
Uh oh! I was just going to ask if 10/11 is possible for those with not-so-big hands. (for me, octaves are easy; ninths are a stretch) Thought 10/11 might be a way to work on extending my reach, but maybe it would be over-reaching? (sorry, couldn't resist :p )
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#1028896 - 10/23/07 01:10 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by silla:
..... if 10/11 is possible for those with not-so-big hands. (for me, octaves are easy; ninths are a stretch) [/b]
Yes, it is possible.

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#1028897 - 10/23/07 02:27 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
 Quote:
Originally posted by LisztAddict:
10/11 is a good one for those with big hands. [/b]
I've got an augmented 11th, is that big enough?
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#1028898 - 10/23/07 03:37 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
You have Lisztian hands.

Give it until at least next Monday with 25/11, okay? You should have your music by then with fingerings. Using the Freidheim fingering I can play the first few bars of the RH (after the Lento) at half tempo and rather suspect you will be able to as well. Full tempo is just hard work. Did you look at the link YD posted earlier in the thread?

It is good that you are feeling trepidatious about this. This is a sign you have the right attitude about the piece necessary to conquer it: Humility, but with determination.
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#1028899 - 10/23/07 03:46 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
I checked out the Etude study guide, most of what it tells me is that the piece is hard... You're probably right about the attitude though. When I started Allegro Barbaro and HR2, I wasn't nervous at all.
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#1028900 - 10/23/07 03:48 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by gerg:
You have Lisztian hands.

[/b]
More like Rach. Liszt had a mere 10. (He just made the very most of it. Chopin barely managed that.)
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#1028901 - 10/23/07 03:50 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
 Quote:
Originally posted by -Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by gerg:
You have Lisztian hands.

[/b]
More like Rach. Liszt had a mere 10. (He just made the very most of it. Chopin barely managed that.) [/b]
Not at all. Rach had more like a 13th. I bet it would be amazing to watch him play 10.1...
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#1028902 - 10/23/07 03:53 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
I stand corrected! \:\)
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#1028903 - 10/23/07 04:03 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by playadom:
 Quote:
Originally posted by -Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by gerg:
You have Lisztian hands.

[/b]
More like Rach. Liszt had a mere 10. (He just made the very most of it. Chopin barely managed that.) [/b]
Not at all. Rach had more like a 13th. I bet it would be amazing to watch him play 10.1... [/b]
You're what? 14? Plenty of time to grown into a 13.
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#1028904 - 10/23/07 04:05 PM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
 Quote:
Originally posted by -Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by playadom:
 Quote:
Originally posted by -Frycek:
quote:
Originally posted by gerg:
You have Lisztian hands.

[/b]
More like Rach. Liszt had a mere 10. (He just made the very most of it. Chopin barely managed that.) [/b]
Not at all. Rach had more like a 13th. I bet it would be amazing to watch him play 10.1... [/b]
You're what? 14? Plenty of time to grown into a 13.
14 in 4 days! Got a birthday right near Liszt's, that's surely good luck.
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#1028905 - 10/24/07 01:17 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
Just 359 days to go. Anyone nervous?
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#1028906 - 10/24/07 01:36 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
joyolympia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Hi, I'm new to this process--I see Amelialw has requested 25.5 "as well"--does that mean it's up for grabs? I love that one; it's CRAZY! I'd love to do it if no one else is.
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You got faults,defects, or shortcomings? Like arthritis,rheumatism or migraines? Whatever part of your body it is,I want you to lay it on the radio. Let the vibes flow through! Funk not only moves,it can RE-move, dig? The desired effect is what you get,when you improve your inter-planetary funksmanship.
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#1028907 - 10/24/07 02:31 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
The so-called "Wrong Note" study? I'll put you down for it (sorry Amelia!).

Welcome, neighbor - you're only 120 miles south, so I guess we're neighbors \:\) ! We're also neighbors in that we have adjacent etudes in the Op. 25.

BTW will you be learning 25/5, or do you already know it? It doesn't matter, just curious...
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Wikicital: A collaborative effort to build a knowledgebase of classical music history combined with examples. Your chance to both perform and write...

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#1028908 - 10/24/07 03:30 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
silla Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 65
Loc: California
I've been listening to Murray Perahia playing 10/9, and I think I'm in love! If it's okay with AQP, I'd really like to learn this one.
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#1028909 - 10/24/07 03:58 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
Ragnhild Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 1117
Loc: Norway
I would very much like to practice op 10 no 8 , but I am not at all sure that I can perform it in a year.....But this is still a challenge for adult beginners, is it ?

Ragnhild
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#1028910 - 10/24/07 04:06 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnhild:
I would very much like to practice op 10 no 8 , but I am not at all sure that I can perform it in a year.....But this is still a challenge for adult beginners, is it ?
Ragnhild [/b]
Definitely.
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#1028911 - 10/24/07 08:06 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
Schubertian Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 937
Loc: Dallas, TX, US
I'll take Op 10 #9 f minor if that isnt spoken for yet.
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#1028912 - 10/24/07 08:34 AM Re: Chopin Etudes Discussion
Mr. Widmore Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 531
Loc: Lost
Of course, take Op.10 No.9, I have to study both No.5 and No.9 for the Conservatoire, so that's fine!
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