I have been working on Bach's Invention #4 for about 3 months, and I've decided it's time to put it to bed for a while. So here's a farewell recording. It's far from perfect, and this recording is full of problems, also I didn't do my usual "room prep" so the sound quality isn't very good. But I still wanted to share it with everyone. I think this is the first time I've shared a recording that's not "modern music," so that's kind of fun.

I am putting this piece away, but I'm going to be starting another invention tomorrow, so if anyone has any comments/feedback/advice that might help me with future inventions, please share them. Thanks! Oh, and here's the BoxNet link for it:

Invention #4

Thanks for sharing, ShuroKuro! The recording quality sounded good on my end. As you know I don't play classical music, so I'm afraid I can't offer any kind of intelligent critique. Sure did sound nice, though! (Er...but I also liked your "River" tons better... )

Like Monica, I cannot comment on the techincal side of the performance as I am not this far yet, but I also liked it. I purchased the 2-3 part inventions a month ago, and now it's calling me......thanks alot.....

I do love to hear Bach played, playing is another story......

I've had this on repeat this morning. I love Bach. I'm not to the point of trying an Invention yet, but should be in the near future. So let my comments be an ego stroke and I'll leave the advise to others who may have played this selection. Thanks for letting us hear.

Great skills Kuro.

Is it me or does classical music sound like drills?

It's you.

Good job! Just be careful of rushing on the long trills.

Yup.

Although, technically, these inventions are 'drills' of a sort. Bach wrote them as teaching pieces for his students.

It's definitely a good recording ShiroKuro. Congratulations.

It should just be kind of a 30%/50% faster. You can judge that from the speed of trills, definitely too slow. In this way it doesn't sing and it sounds a bit mechanical (or "drills" as PianoGal likes to put it).
Even for your ear it can be difficult to add the right colors because it's difficult to follow the thread of music and the interplay of the two parts.

With the technical level you've reached it shouldn't be too difficult to gradually increase speed up to the right lavel.

Wow...super performance. Congrats, ShiroKuro:

I could never, in about 20 years, play something that is obviously so complicated.

Oh, someone mentioned it should be be played faster. Well, better make that 50 years before I could play it.

Kathleen

It's very good. It could go a little bit faster (not much), but that also means you have to do the trills faster. But at the tempo you did, you played it well. Very even notes, the left hand trill was excellent, the ornaments were executed very cleanly.

Some people may disagree with me, but I think that's how Bach Inventions should sound; a steady mood. I tend to visualize a wheel rolling at a steady speed for Inventions and most Preludes and Fugues.

One of the big things about baroque music is seamless continuity. Music after that (beginning around Haydn and Mozart) was written with the goal of being dramatic, divided into sections, and very non-continuous, but Bach's music isn't like that at all. Most of Bach's music, if you listen to it you will hear that there are constantly 8th notes from beginning to end, or constantly quarter notes (or 16th notes) from begininng to end - sometimes they're in just the right hand, sometimes in just the left hand, and sometimes in both hands, but they're always there. It's supposed to make the music very driving and continuous and very seamless (and I suppose maybe that's one reason why people today - who are so used to music being non-continuous (i.e. broken up into verse/chorus, or classical music that is very dramatic) - tend to hear it as 'drills').

Realizing this, your analogy makes a lot of sense -- it's like a steady wheel rolling along, and too much rubato sort of destroy's the sense of seamless continuity (any accelerandos would have to be steady as well, steadily getting faster (or slower) and then remaining for a while at the faster speed).

I have started to try some Bach inventions. At the moment they are still a little too much for me. It might be next year, but they will come around.

I enjoyed your recording. It sounded great to me. I also enjoyed reading the comments above. I'm sure you worked hard to get it to this speed. With your skill I'm sure you can play at any speed you like.

I don't think that 'drilling' and 'singing' are necessarily exclusive. You can enjoy doing both.

Edit...

ShiroKuro--sounds good! I am working on my first Bach Invention (#10) so I can't give much advice. The only comment I have is that you might pay more attention to phrasing in each hand. I felt like a lot of it sounded like it was being played by Sibelius or Finale--the right notes but no phrasing, especially the left hand. That might be contributing to the "drill" feeling. My teacher gets me to work on that by doing lots of hands apart work on phrasing.

And a related comment--gmm1 said he liked to hear Bach but not play it--I have never liked to listen to baroque music much--too much of that continuous beat--but I really like learning to play the Bach pieces. And I like how it sounds as I play--I still go so slowly that I can hear the harmonies as the lines interweave that I never appreciated before.

I don't think your comments are a putdown of classical music (I was just trying to be humorous as I've always found that phrase 'Is it me or ....' very amusing).

Seriously, however, I think Sam's comments are right on. Many styles of later classical music are able to easily elicit an emotional reponse by the use of beautiful melodies, complex harmonies or rhythms, dramatic changes in dynamics and tempo, etc. But I've always thought of Baroque music differently.

Most Baroque music reminds me of an elaborate clockwork: lots of different simple parts, often moving with their own speed and rhythm, but meshing with other parts at just the right times and places to keep the whole complex mechanism ticking along as unified whole. The creativity and plain old craftmanship in the best Baroque music is just amazing to me.

As an engineer, I find that hearing, analyzing, and playing these kinds of things is immensely satisfying, although not in the same emotional way I feel when I play Beethoven, Grieg or Copland.

Hey GREAT GREAT JOB! Pretty much everything has been said i.e. raising the tempo slightly, and getting those trills to flow. You just have to kind of let loose with it. I don't know if you are playing it from memory. If not then try doing that and then try playing it slowly and faster and faster..IN THE DARK! Then you can kind of get your true sound and let your ear and soul kind of guide you. Take the notes off the page and make it music. You know the notes obviously quite well. Take it to the next level now.

Some further advice for the inventions in 4/4 meter, practice with a metronome with the beats on 2&4. It gives you kind of a bounce with Bach that is needed in his music.

GREAT GREAT GREAT JOB!

you are definitly one of bachs better students:) and now an inventor...ok corny i know. great job. i like your trills. well i have nothing more to add here. just wanted to say great job!!! and play play play:)

Shiro,
I really enjoyed listening to this piece and reading the comments. I haven't played any Bach inventions, I do have the whole book and have listened to the recordings though. I'm wondering how you feel reading the comments. I'm wondering because I just came back from my first lesson for the fall and feel a little deflated after the (albeit constructive) criticism I received for the piece I'd been working on ssoooooo hard on my own all summer (and was kind of proud of). Not because I didn't appreciate the comments, not because I don't realize it will be so much better in a few weeks, but after 2 months, I'm kind of sick of it and am not looking forward to starting all over and picking it apart yet again......

Soooo back to you and your piece. Do you feel like you should continue to work on it or are you still ready to put it away. And do you work on pieces on your own and play them for your teacher AFTER you've finished them? I have another one that I'm now hesitating to bring to lessons. I think I'll post it here first!!

Sandy - a teacher's job is to find things that you can improve.....otherwise, why pay them? On the other hand, I listen to everything with a huge piece of envy and desire to play "that" well. If your teacher could hear me and then compare to you, you win big time, but did you learn anything that would lead to improvement?

I am the worst person for criticism as I tend to attack before thinking....but without criticism I would go through life thinking I am good looking and talented...... hmmmmmm ......OK, I gotta think on this one.....can't find the down side....

Anyway, be glad your teacher found areas to make you better - he/she's earning the paycheck....

(It still stings,thou, huh???)

gmm1, you are right, of course. I know the piece will be much better with his help and he really is very kind in his criticism. I guess it makes me realize how much I need a teacher. The piece he heard me play was my recital piece. He showed me some staccato "tricks" to help bring out the melody and "fade" the harmony bits (of course HE makes it look easy - he'd never heard this piece before and played it with such ease....sigh, sigh). It will really work if I can get it right. I should be "inflated" not "deflated"....... (I feel like I'm stealing Shiro's thread here - I'll stop now)

Good job as always. I listened to it twice. As I've said before, I don't have enough technical vocabulary to criticize or give advice, so once again, great job and keep up the good work.

Like Copper, I am a little early for things like Bach Inventions - so I'm playing the Bach Minuets and Preludes, but that hasn't stopped me having a go at #1 over the past month. So hard!!! My left hand is barely up to it even hands-separate. I think you've done a very admirable job and the tone sounds wonderful - but I feel like you've picked a really hard one, because who on earth can get those extended trills to sounds so even. It's like a nightmare for me. Wonderful effort Shiro!

Thanks for listening and for all the responses!

I really struggled to get the tempo up in this invention. I can play it a tad faster but for recording, I slowed it down so that I don't just go spinning out of control! Ultimately, I'd like to have a little bit faster, because it really does come to life at a faster tempo, but my own abilities are not quite there yet.

And I have had a heck of a time with the trills, first they were too slow, now the trill hand tends to make the non-trill hand speed up, it's something I'm no where near being able to do well. But this piece is the first time I've ever played that kind of extended trill, so it's been a great learning opportunity.

Another thing on the subject of tempo, in the Alfred edition, the editor (Palmer) says that a lot of pianists play the inventions with a great deal of rubato, which was surprising for me. I don't feel like I have enough control over the music here to play rubato, but just to know that rubato is possible with Bach was really eye-opening. (BTW, in case anyone was wondering, I didn't play from the Palmer edition, I played from a Henle urtext.)

Regarding phrasing, that is definitely one of the most difficult things for me with Bach, my teacher has been working on it with me, but I am not very good at doing what she tells me, I'm lucky if I can even understand what she tells me! :p And then I think I have the phrasing down, and I pick up the tempo, and the phrasing just goes right out the window! :rolleyes:

Oh, re playing from memory! I can not play this piece without the score! I don't know if it's because it's Bach, or what, but I just can't. Put the score away and my fingers just freeze up. Maybe I'll make better progress on that with the next invention I tackle...

Sandy, I didn't really feel deflated reading any comments or constructive criticism, but that is surely because I think of Bach's inventions as "study," if that makes sense. I have no plans on performing or recording an Invention and putting it on my web site, or on a CD to send to my family in the states. That's not to say that I don't consider my study of Bach to be a musical pursuit, I do, but I feel it's 100% for learning purposes. With a lot of the music I play, I'm playing it because I like the music and I want to perform it etc. (all the pieces on my web page fit this category.) Whatever I can learn from those pieces is really secondary to the fact that musically, I just want to play them. But these inventions? I play them because each score is like a little musical encyclopedia! It really is purely for my own personal musical advancement. So my investment in the music is very different, and I am much more objective than I am with something like "River." Also, I see that with inventions, I am very much "in progress" and no where near being finished. Whereas if I posted a recording that I thought was "complete" and then people made a lot of "you should do this" kind of suggestions, I might not take it so well!

Sandy said:
I am not really sure, because on the one hand I think the very best thing to do would be to put the piece away and come back to it in a year, and re-do it. However, I seriously doubt I'll do that with an invention. If I manage to get through half of the inventions and half of the sinfonia, then I will move on to the WTC. So in that regard I think I should keep working on it, but I am not going to. I'm going to start #8. I have already learned a lot from #4, and I'll learn something new from #8, so even though I'm putting #4 away when I could still be making progress on it, I think that's ok. If that makes sense.

If a piece is at or below my current level, I tend to work on it a lot on my own before bringing it to my teacher. I did that with River and with Overcome. I guess I did that because I could tell I was doing the right things and I knew I could do the preliminary work on my own. I have enough confidence with a piece of that level to think that I won't practice any serious mistakes or reinforce bad habits. In other words, I feel I'm not doing any damage by working the piece up all by myself. With Bach's Inventions, I prefer to do them every step of the way with my teacher. I play from an urtext, so I let to get her approval on my fingerings before I internalize them, and I really don't know enough about Bach to do very much real work on my own. I would worry that if I did too much on my own, I'd practice some bad habits or do some "musical damage" and I'd rather have her coach me through it than have to go back and undo something. If that makes sense.

Sorry, this has gotten quite long!

Thank you again everyone for listening! With a little luck (and a lot of perseverance!) hopefully I can share a recording of Invention #8 before the end of the year. Stay tuned!

Shiro, you are so wise in your piano pursuits! I see what you mean about Bach. I'm working on a Sonatina in C (Kuhlau) and it's taking forever. I know it isn't one I will keep in my repertoire so for some reason (actually the reasons you mentioned), I don't feel intimidated to play it for my teacher because I feel like it's mostly an exercise. However I don't think I'll be posting it anywhere! On the otherhand when I played Le Soir for him I wanted sooooo much for it to go well because I was proud of what I had accomplished on my own, that when it didn't go so well and he critiqued it, I felt a little disappointed. My Edude is one that I posted specifically to receive criticism so I appreciate all comments... so it's really about how you feel about a piece and how far you want to take it.

Shiro. I really enjoyed your playing of the Bach Invention #4. You play it very smoothly, and steady. I'm afraid I disagree with those who think you should play it faster. It seems just about right to me. Any faster and it would sound muddy.
I can appreciate your playing of this invention, as it is one I play, and I have found the left hand trills to be difficult to keep even. However, you have no difficulty with them. You really played this very well.

The others I have played are #8 (lots of fun), #13, and #14. I think you will enjoy those. Gaby Tu

Gaby, thanks for listening and commenting!

I really struggled with those trills!!!

I am just starting #8, I haven't worked on it enough to have any questions yet, but I'll be sure to ask you when I get to that point!

ShiroKuro

Thank's for sharing.
You are playing beautifully, I like your phrasing, your left hand in the last part is so nice !
You and your teacher must have put in a lot of work, I think I could do with a teacher myself !
I've heard Bach Inventions played rubato (Andras Schiff a.o.) and it's nice to listen to, but for me it's a challenge to get the phrasing right with a steady beat.

Ragnhild

Hi ShiroKuro,

Nice playing..This is a challenging piece and after listening to your recording which was great by the way I decided to give it a try as well since I've played the Prelude in C long enough . Go fingers practise !
I have a question concerning the right hand trill starting at bar 19. Do you alternate the C note with the second and thumb or do you trill with the 2nd and 3rd finger throughout. I am looking at the copy I got from sheetmusic archives which gives finger recommendations and slurs. I noticed other publications don't give any nor any slur markings as well.

Peter

Very beautiful playing, SK.

I listened to your recording about 8 times.

Your touch is perfectly even, and the subtle changes in dynamics you employ are really good.

And your mordents are wonderfully crisp.

Is there a tempo marking in the urtext?

My edited version is marked Allegro, with a metronome setting of dotted quarter=72, which would be one click per measure, or six 16th notes per click.

You're playing it at dotted quarter=48, which to me sounds much too slow. Bach takes on a new life and added excitement when he is played fast. Otherwise he can sound pretty dull.

I love the 8th Invention, but my favorite is the 13th in A minor.

No.14 in B flat is also wonderful, as is No.9 in F minor.

Again, congradulations on a great performance.

Mel

Rockpeter, thanks for listening. You know, I'd have to go to the piano to be sure, but I think I play that RH trill thumb-3. (and if it's not that, then I'm playing thumb and 2) And I think I play the LH trill (the multi-measure one that comes up a few measures later) with thumb-2. Wow, it's funny how I can't really remember that unless I'm at the keyboard. I'll double-check later.

Mel, thanks for listening! The urtext doesn't have any tempo indications, but I reference the chart from the Palmer edition where he lists several tempo indictions from different editions and also the tempos as played by famous pianists. For example, for this invention, both Glenn Gould and Czerny choose MM=72 for the dotted quarter. The fastest tempo listed is 84, and the slowest is 52. It's been a while since I played this with a metronome, but I was up to around maye 58-62 at my fastest. However, I get really sloppy at that tempo, mistakes are frequent and trills are mushy! So I slowed it down in the few days before I recorded it, to bring it under control.

I also like to do comparative listening before I start work on an invention, and IIRC the one I liked the best was a recording by Schiff, he plays it at about MM=76. I prefer a slightly faster tempo for my own playing of this invention, butit's just not within my grasp yet.

SHIRO:[/b] good recording , Those inventions are really hard to play too. I tried to play one of Bachs' inventions several years ago but I gave up, it required too much brain coordination for me! :p

I'm certainly no expert. But, as a casual listener, I thought it was very nice and sounded like a rather technical piece which required quite a bit of work. Keep it up.

Arias, Tigers, thanks for listening!

Rockpeter, I played this Invention just now, and I do thumb-3 for thr RH trills and thumb-2 for the LH trills. Also, I wanted to point out that for the trill starting in measure 19, I start on the note above (D, was it?) and trill down, so to speak. For in the LH trills, I start on the note, and trill up. If that makes sense. For Bach, it's more "correct" to start trills on the note above, but for that LH trill my teacher and I decided it would be ok for me to break the rules a bit.