Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Fingering exercise question

I'm working on my flash cards and my finger exercises and have run into a problem with what finger sequences to use with the F major scale.

I've been using this technique
Right hand - going up the scale:
1-2-3 cross under with the thumb - 1-2-3-4-5

But in using that with the F major scale when I get to the Bb it just does not flow. Suggestions on the correct way would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Malcolm

{EDIT} is it just a matter of sliding up between the black keys to catch the Bb with the thumb?

It's 1234 1234

Thanks, but now coming back is off.

What's the correct way to move back down the F scale?

Thanks again,

Malcolm

It's just the reverse fingering: 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1.

It's true that when your thumb is on C, you have to reach over with your fourth finger to continue with the Bb, but that is the standard fingering.

I'm just a novice but thumbs are never used on sharps.

If you're talking scales, you are correct with respect to standard fingering. However in real use, plenty of us use thumbs on black keys. We use what is most efficient at the moment.

(edit: question was already answers - oops)

It is customary in technical exercises (scales, arpeggios, etc.) never to use thumbs on the black keys. This practice originated in the 16th and 17th century, but has slowly, consistently eroded in performance practice since the early 19th century--using the thumbs on black keys was one of the many scandalous things Chopin is alleged to have done!

My first teacher believed in the older practice, so imagine my surprise when my second teacher would ask, "Why don't you take that note with your thumb?" about a black key. I probably looked at her funny--I know I was very surprised by the question, and felt like I was getting away with something.

Basically the "rules" of fingering are thus:

23 RH
UU (Group of 2 Black Notes)
32 LH

234 RH
UUU (Group of 3 Black Notes)
432

1) Here is some very good information on fingering by Dr. Paul Wirth. Take what you can and save the rest as you make progress to read again at a later time.

http://www.cmmusicschool.org/download/fingering.pdf

2) VIRGINIA TECH MUSIC DICTIONARY
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/

3) Also the "Essential Dictionary of Music" by Alfred Publications is a smallsized resourse, many pages, all vocabulary, theory, composers, etc, for about $4.95. Most music retailers sell or can order one or online at Alfred.

Also, the reason thumbs and 5th fingers stay off the black keys is reality - look at your hands and notice that the 3 long fingers extend out and up to sit upon the black keys, thumbs and 5th fingers are too short and limited to do this. It is this simple, and anyone allowing short fingers on black notes, except in chords, is not well trained and savvy in scale fingerings.

Get yourself some good information before doing these things and you won't regret it.

If you want to PM me your e-mail address, I have another document(s) that could be attached to your email at home, but not on PWF about fingering.

Good luck in 2008.

Betty

I'm really surprised about this. It is certainly true that the standard fingerings for scales makes it possible to play them efficiently without putting your thumb on a black key. But are there really teachers who believe this carries over to the real piano literature? They would teach you to play octaves on black keys with 2-5 so you can keep your thumb out of play? And big chords involving ninths and tenths - no thumbs on black keys? That is simply unbelievable to me. I've never had a teacher suggest such a thing.

I certainly didn't intend impugn either of my two primary teachers. Perhaps some more of the story is in order?

I didn't get far enough with my first teacher to have to worry about octaves much, so the practical aspects you mention never really arose: she taught me what the tradition was without much further explanation. As I changed teachers and progressed, of course it's obvious that thumbs are better for passages that have "big" chords or spans. It was just odd and funny that the first few times she suggested that I could use my thumb for CONVENIENCE on a black key, it felt kinda sneaky.

This was 30 years ago, and the first teacher was probably 75 years old then.

Also, note the timeframes in my post: prior to late Beethoven, very early in the 19th century, there wasn't a lot of octave-pounding happening. That kind of music came 'round with Chopin and Liszt. You can play a great deal of the literature before then minimizing or eliminating the use of the thumbs on black keys.

(I believe there is some discussion about the history of performance practice in Harold Schonberg's "The Lives of the Great Composers" and "The Great Pianists" --though not works of academic scholarship, they seem generally accurate.)

In scale fingering Betty, you are correct. In non-scalar playing like in jazz improvisation, there are plenty of exceptions, for example, playing an F# Pentatonic scale in various patterns. I wouldn't think of playing this with a thumb crossing when 4 of the 5 fingers fit neatly into the shape of the pentatonic. It makes no sense. So I think common sense applies. In jazz, we have to use fingers in any location that is often dictated by what the fingers did right before or will do next.

And I didn't even mention octaves...

jazzwee,

I hearby eat my words with a fork and a bib.

Exceptions, yes, as you mentioned.

I was really locked into the idea of fingering as in scales, and the thought about starting and ending notes 1's - 5's acting as the brake.

I'm not always a nut for perfect fingering especially if you're sightreading at a difficult level, or improvising. Sometimes you just have to scamper around and keep going. No sweat for some people. I get the idea you really play jazz!

Betty

so what's the fingering for this over 2 octaves?

f major was a bit tricky for a bit, since you don't use fingers number 1 to start with.

I have a book complete scales and arpeggios but it only shows it for one octave.

The standard fingering for two octaves of F major is:

RH: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

LH: 5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 1

I'm not sure what the comment about not starting with finger 1 means. In the RH, each octave does start with 1.

Hey Betty, I didn't want you to make me look bad Especially from a very good teacher.


Over on the Jazz thread, I was teaching them ii-V patterns that would use thumbs on the black keys. Someone might think I'm full of it

I really enjoy your posts by the way. Keep 'em coming!

First thanks to everyone for your input, I had no idea my question would generate so much interest.

Appreciate your help.

Malcolm