Hello and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in the group. I joined a few days ago but this is my first post. It's going to be pretty cool to discuss things with piano players of all skill and experience levels. Should be fun.

hello and welcome! how's your skill level, or what do you play?

Welcome aboard!

Good to hear from you, zweil88. Welcome.

Happy Thanksgiving EVERYONE!

I consider myself a beginner because most of what I learned by teaching myself I've tried to forget. One of the bad things about teaching yourself, especially if you don't know theory, is you learn some bad habits and you don't learn some of the basics.

Example: In my group lessons we learned to finger 3 note chords using fingers 1,2, and 5. At that time I thought all chords could be fingered that way so I decided to quit the class and teach myself. Didn't find out what an inverted, root position, or seventh chord was until I until I started taking private lessons. My keyboard is a Kurzweil SP 88 (semi-weighted). I'll be practicing later today on a version of My Grandfather's Clock Level 3 that I found on the internet and also on "Waltz" by Carl Strommen out of the Piano a la Jazz collection from my class. Good for working on rhythm and technique.

I don't like this phrase "picking up bad habits
by teaching yourself." You see this phrase used
all the time on piano forums, posted by people
as a kind of standard closing line in their
posts: "Therefore you should find a teacher
before you pick up too many bad habits by teaching
yourself." I regard this phrase as a cliche
that has no merit. The reason is that people's
physiques, coordination, hand size, mental
processes, hearing, interpretation, reading,
personal philosphies, ideals, psychological
makeups, the piano they usually practice on,
etc., are so different that you cannot
say that there is a standard way to play
the piano that suits everybody. What is
a bad habit to one person may be the only
way another person can play the piano.

Also, one of the main places where bad habits
are picked up is in formal piano lessons
themselves--teachers teach the way they know
how to play the instrument; they cannot
be expected to design a custom method
of playing for each student. Thus, what
you are taught in lessons may or may
not suit you personally, and if it doesn't
suit you (and you are unaware that what
you are learning does not suit you), then you
are in effect learning the wrong way, which
is like picking up bad habits--and this is
actually worse than teaching yourself,
because when you teach yourself you will
always be asking yourself if you are
doing it right, which is actually good;
but when you take lessons, the fact that you
are taking formal lessons will lead you
stop questioning whether you are doing
things right and to believe that everything you
are being taught is right for you.

That said, Gyro, a good teacher can show a student lots of techniques and methods (tricks even) that might take you a long time to pick up yourself. In general, I think that most students will progress both faster and better with a good teacher than without.

And although teachers may have their preferred ways of doing things, many have a very flexible approach to music and fingering, recognizing that we are all different.

Also just because we employ a teacher, does not mean that we ditch the ability to think for ourselves. A teacher is a useful resource - but you may need to try one or two to find one that suits you.

Good luck with the forum. Keep an open mind in the face of some firm opinions here, and enjoy your music. I add my welcome to that of the others.

Kind regards

Adrian

Hi Zweill88, welcome to the forum! I believe it is entirely possible to pick up bad habits self-teaching, because I definitely did. I went too long without checking in with a music teacher friend of mine, and the end result is that I picked up a sore back/shoulder because I was sitting too close to the keyboard and too low. So, like you, I had to relearn some stuff.

Happy playing!

Gyro,

It's too bad that you didn't have a more positive experience with teachers....many of them are excellent and actually know what they are doing! There are, I'm sure many also who should never teach but the good ones are out there and invaluable, in my opinion.

Welcome Zweil88, from a Manzano HS graduate. I haven't lived in Albuquerque since I finished HS, but we visit enough to remind me of how much I miss it. As far as self teaching, I can only comment on what I know, which is that being taught by an instructor has definite advantages. As an example, one of the pieces I'm working on has no fingering notations. My teacher sat at the piano and helped me work out the best way to approach it.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Jon

Zweill88,

Welcome! I just came aboard this month as well.

Piano playing is an art but it is also a craft. A master teacher is a master craftsman who guides students in learning piano techniques developed and perfected over the last 300 years.

Some craftsmen do lousy work and some piano teachers produce frustrated and confused students who doubt the value of good instruction because they have never been instructed properly.

I think the folks who advise getting a good teacher are the ones who know from personal experience how good a teacher can be.

Sandy, you misunderstand me. Your teacher is
an accomplished pianist and the way he plays
is fine--for him. But the problem is that
he's teaching you more of less according
to how he plays, which is essentially
the only way he can teach. But take a look
at him and yourself, and you'll see
two very different individuals. Your
physiques are different, as are your hand sizes,
coordination, way of thinking, psychological
makeups, thought processes, etc. So his way
of playing just cannot fit you in all
repects. Sure, there are certain things about
playing that are "standard": curved fingers
(at least in the US), scale fingerings,
etc., but even these so-called "basics" may
not suit everyone. For example, no teacher today
would allow you to cross the 3rd finger over
the 4th, or the 4th over the 5th, but there
is no reason why this cannot be done in
certain situations--in fact, this used to
be considered good technique in the earlier
days of keyboard playing. I personally
find that in certain situations I have to
cross fingers in this way because of the
way my physique and thought processes
work. This may sound strange, but that's my
point: people differ too much in body and
mind (in particular, the mind) to try and make
them play in the more or less "standard" way
that is taught in lessons.

Gyro, you are right. I think a good teacher will be flexible in his approach depending on the student. It's just that sometimes you seem negative towards teachers. I think that most of us need guidance. Sometimes, I'm told, a student never requires teaching in technique, they have a natural ability to play the piano in such a way to accomodate speed, accuracy, musicality without injury. All too often though students (and professionals) suffer serious injury from overplaying using incorrect methods. I.e., playing the piano should NEVER hurt. When I began playing I'd get a tingling in my right hand after practicing for 1/2 hour or so, but thanks to (I believe) my teacher's persistance in getting me to relax my fingers and use a rotating wrist motion, I can play for hours without any discomfort. I guess I am NOT one of those with natural ability...

sorry, i have to say that it's not true: teaching yourself only leads to bad habit (if that's what you meant). i have taught myself playing for 5 years, and finally when i came to a teacher, and wonder if that's exactly what he'd say. but it didn't turn out that way. my teacher said that i was ok, and there's no 'bad habits' to be unlearned. perhaps he'd been polite, but it would contradict what i have felt about my techniques lately, so that i took it as it is and as a compliment. anybody, with teacher or not, could develop some bad habits, if one doesn't put mind on techniques and critique or check oneself on such a subject during learning and practicing. there's a lot ways to check on yourself on 'habits' or techniques, and a lot of things can be corrected if you find the right ways to play. there's so many books on playing instruction and techniques out there that you could reach and learn by yourself.

it's a common conception among people who're learning piano, that one cannot learn piano well and do not develop bad habits if one has no teacher's guidance. it's just not true, because there're plenty of exceptions to prove it. and of course it mainly depends on individual.