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#103512 - 01/14/08 05:16 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
insanity Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 147
Loc: Switzerland
Well I think that is quite a nice resolution. Hopefully it will hold what it promisses.

Can you tell me which dealer in Switzerland this is?
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway B

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#103513 - 01/14/08 07:30 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
I don't think it is appropriate for me to disclose dealer details with people I do not know personally, and especially on an open forum, as I do not want to create an issue of one person saying that a sale has been taken away from another. I do hope you understand.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103514 - 01/14/08 07:51 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4981
Loc: boston north
The result is that you have a nice Hamburg Steinway D that has one year of breaking in already, AND another piano besides! Sounds like the group 'did good'!

Just curious, in donating $$$ did they know how much a new top concert grand would cost and they matched that amount, or was just a certain round figure given and it happen to work out?

Hope you feel better AJ.
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#103515 - 01/14/08 08:34 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
birchy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Vancouver
There are two things in the universe which are made in very strange ways: sausages and decisions by committee...

It is a balancing act in a charitable organization to respect the closely held values of individuals and at the same time uphold the greater cause. A positive outcome always depends on a lot of goodwill all around. While the personal grievances of previous generations are hard for us to relate to, it sounds like the overall result in your case was very good indeed, and no relationships were harmed in coming to this conclusion! Congrats \:D

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#103516 - 01/14/08 09:08 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Lilylady - They donated £100,000, which was also intended to provide a maintenance annuity fund and included the purchase of a few other small instruments that were needed. Since the donation, the fund has grown to £111,000 because this process has already had one false start (before my time).

Birchy - I am used to board room decisions, which is a bit like a committee of this kind I suppose, but with perhaps more commonality of view and purpose. The problem we have had in the past is that there is no CEO as such so deadlock can occur. The chairperson role carries with it no power as it moves automatically every year. This changed recently by making the Treasurer a professional appointment with a right of veto over investment and expenditure proposals. That is not ideal either as it is only negative power so instead of breaking deadlock it can perpetuate it. I have never come across that before. It was nevertheless an interesting experience.

Kind regards

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103517 - 01/14/08 09:17 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17809
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Yes, sounds like a very good outcome. I applaud your committee for honoring the wishes of the donor, as expressed by his family, even though you were not legally obligated to do so. To do otherwise would not only have been unfair to the family but possibly had a chilling effect on potential future bequests to the organization.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#103518 - 01/14/08 09:32 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
Understandable decision. You will have a superb instrument that satisfies everybody on musical and other grounds. This takes nothing away from the musical merits of a modern Yamaha.

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#103519 - 01/14/08 09:38 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
I agree Monica and Numerian.

In some ways this was a relief for the Committee as the decision could be made for pragmatic reasons not associated with anyone's personal preferences.

I have written positive things in the past about the CFIIIS and a smaller Yamaha that I played a lot at a school. I think they make some good pianos.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103520 - 01/15/08 05:22 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1532
Loc: New York
While I do not know the exchange rate it certainly sounds like a substantial savings. What luck to get such a deal. I cant imagine this nearly new D is anything but spectacular.

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#103521 - 01/17/08 03:41 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Craigen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 1815
Loc: West Coast
Top tier world class instrument. Great resolution to the delema for all concerned. Good Steinway experienced tech on hand and an annuity in place for ongoing service. Who could ask for more.

Just one detail in your commentary that I wanted to comment on. The manufacturer's warranty on new Steinways is not transferrable. Your organization will be bare on any "warranty" issues. This likely will not be an issue, but should be noted.
_________________________
Piano Technician, member Piano Technicians Guild.

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#103522 - 01/17/08 04:47 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
We were told that S&S Hamburg warranties are transferred within a given period. However, I will check this

As regards exchange rates, the pound is a bit weaker against the Euro than it was, but it has not suffered the same weakness as the dollar. In the time-span of this transaction it is not a factor.

I have no idea whether the piano is spectacular or not, I suspect it is a typical but not stellar D. The dealers still say that although Hanburg concert grands are more consistent than the New York ones, the best ones still do not go to private buyers. I am not sure that either I or anyone involved is familiar enough or has a good enough ear or touch to tell the difference between a top class D and an OK one. I am sure it will be OK. Anyway it is over now. Such is life.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103523 - 01/17/08 04:58 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
Adrian - it's not "over" until you post pics! \:D
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#103524 - 01/17/08 05:02 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1532
Loc: New York
Also not over till we get a report on the D when it arrives and gets played.

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#103525 - 01/17/08 06:04 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Fair enough. We are some weeks away from pics and a player report though. Removal, packing, shipping, customs clearance, delivery, settling in for a week or so, then first tuning and prep. I am expecting it to take six weeks before we have something that can be played.

A
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103526 - 01/17/08 06:04 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Roger Ransom Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1282
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
It's interesting that they hate Japan because of activities during WWII but Germany is OK? Hmmm

I guess it was the personal nature of the experience with Japan, others might feel differently but they're financing a major purchase.

Actually I believe at the level that both of those and other concert grands are, it is strictly a matter of taste or prejudices rather than absolute characteristics of any sort.

They are both wonderful pianos.
_________________________
Laugh More
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#103527 - 01/17/08 06:16 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
I agree that there is a degree of illogicality in differentiating between Japan (personal incarceration) and Germany (WWII enemy). It was 63 years ago, long before I was born, and the world has moved on to a huge extent. But when people bequeath money, it is not unreasonable to respect their views as expressed by their children.

I happen to have a German girlfriend and I know Germany very well. Oddly enough, the English / British of my parents and grandparents generation are far more attuned to and tolerant of Germanic views than Japanese ones. Perhaps it is simply a European perspective and cultural similarity.

It has no real place in piano purchasing decisions.

I think it is a shame that we see so few American pianos in Europe. I have never seen a Mason & Hamlin in Europe, for example. NY Steinways are few and far between, and those we do see are usually ancient.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103528 - 01/17/08 08:35 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Paulwbenn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Dallas
"It's interesting that they hate Japan because of activities during WWII but Germany is OK? Hmmm"

Yes, that is ironic. To read the London tabloids, you'd think the war with Germany was still on. But I guess a Steinway, even one made in Hamburg, is really an American piano. \:\)

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#103529 - 01/18/08 03:58 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
In fact, the London tabloids do not make anti German references very often these days, except perhaps on the rare occasions when an English team plays a German one at football (soccer). Football seems to bring out the worst in many people.

Interestingly, if you were to ask a sample of people whether Steinway is an American or a German piano, I would be willing to bet that the vast majority would say German.

There are very few NY Steinways over here. They are regarded as Hamburg, Germany instrument. Even though I am aware that there is US ownership, even I think of them as a German instrument.

In reality it does not matter at all.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103530 - 01/18/08 04:29 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Adrian:
Even though I am aware that there is US ownership, even I think of them as a German instrument.

Lucky they didn't have to consider one of those Japanese Bösendorfers \:\)

-Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#103531 - 01/18/08 06:33 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
From AJB,

 Quote:
I think it is a shame that we see so few American pianos in Europe. I have never seen a Mason & Hamlin in Europe
What true American piano manufactures might we expect to see in Europe apart from Steinway NY, Baldwin and Mason and Hamlin?

If e.g. Baldwin and M&H are not export driven, who is there to blaim.

I know though of one M&H dealer in Europe (Paris, France):
http://www.magne.fr/index1.html

schwammerl.

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#103532 - 01/18/08 07:05 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Paulwbenn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Dallas
"In fact, the London tabloids do not make anti German references very often these days, except perhaps on the rare occasions when an English team plays a German one at football (soccer)."

Well, the Sun did recently welcome the new German Pope with the headline "From Hitler Youth to Papa Ratzi" and the Daily Mail called him the "Panzer Cardinal."

Steinway has been an American company for over a century. It happens to make some of its pianos in Hamburg, just as BMW happens to make some of its cars in South Carolina.

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#103533 - 01/18/08 07:23 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
SCCDoug Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 663
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Paulwbenn:
"In fact, the London tabloids do not make anti German references very often these days, except perhaps on the rare occasions when an English team plays a German one at football (soccer)."

Well, the Sun did recently welcome the new German Pope with the headline "From Hitler Youth to Papa Ratzi" and the Daily Mail called him the "Panzer Cardinal."

Steinway has been an American company for over a century. It happens to make some of its pianos in Hamburg, just as BMW happens to make some of its cars in South Carolina. [/b]
Steinway has been building pianos in Germany for 127 years, and to different design specifications than those in NY. Hardly an apt comparison to todays BMW.
_________________________
Doug

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#103534 - 01/18/08 07:56 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Paulwbenn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
Steinway has been building pianos in Germany for 127 years, and to different design specifications than those in NY. Hardly an apt comparison to todays BMW.
Its true. Steinway & Sons of New York has been building pianos in Germany for over 100 years. A true American pioneer of globalization.

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#103535 - 01/18/08 08:23 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1532
Loc: New York
Steinway has been building pianos in Germany for 127 years, and to different design specifications than those in NY. Hardly an apt comparison to todays BMW.

While there are some differences they are essentially the same design.

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#103536 - 01/18/08 08:26 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Paulsbenn:
Steinway & Sons of New York has been building pianos in Germany for over 100 years.[/b]

A bit longer than that considering the instruments that Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg^H^H^Henry E. Steinway made in Germany before he left for New York. So I think you'll find that Steinway and Sons of New York were a true German pioneer of globalisation \:\)

Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#103537 - 01/18/08 11:53 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Paulwbenn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
A bit longer than that considering the instruments that Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg^H^H^Henry E. Steinway made in Germany before he left for New York. So I think you'll find that Steinway and Sons of New York were a true German pioneer of globalisation
Excellent point. Although the pianos are now called Steinways and not Steinwegs. \:\) America was and is a country of immigrants!

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#103538 - 01/19/08 07:06 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
So we are agreed that Steinways are German pianos. Thank goodness for that.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103539 - 01/19/08 07:08 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Of course, as the Chinese, with their huge economic resources, gradually take over American industry, soon all that stuff produced in America will be Chinese.

Even Texas will not be spared!
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103540 - 01/20/08 10:02 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1532
Loc: New York
So we are agreed that Steinways are German pianos. Thank goodness for that.

Not..The Steinway came to be what it is in New York despite its German heritage. If its not a USA development because of its heritage than nothing is American since even the Native Americans emigrated to this continent.

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#103541 - 01/20/08 10:42 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
LJC:
The Steinway came to be what it is in New York despite its German heritage.

Blimey, you have an odd keyboard on your computer, as it appears to have typed 'despite' when of course the appropriate phrase is 'thanks to'. Here's the thing: the chap was born in Germany, made his first pianos in Germany (15 years before leaving the country), emigrated from Germany at age of 54 due to political instability and insecurity in his homeland, changed his name to a more anglo-sounding one and founded his new piano company in New York. Of course this new company was steeped in German tradition... As for your last comment, it is sometimes said that Europeans think that two hundred miles is a long way, and Americans think that two hundred years is a long time \:\) .

Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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