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Ditto that.

And there are those who knock pianos that are not Steinways for about the same reasons...

Havn't you been doing just that? It is apparant that your bias for Steinway has clouded your judgment on the merits of its competitors. Steinway makes a wonderful concert grand, but it is not the only contender; nor is it the best (as that is a subjective term).

I have also noticed that you do not value the opinion of musicians. While I find that distasteful, there is no doubt that other technicians would disagree with you as well.

Try not to be so abrasive - we're only discussing pianos.

Monica - I agree. But the concept of a student endowment needs thinking through. I am not sure if the institution has the resources to provide the kind of access that I envisage. However, it makes a lot of sense as the building is already used for ABRSM examinations and the present student pianos (or which there are three uprights and two small grands) are all much lower level. What I am thinking is to place a new student grand in a rarely used side room and turn it into a student recital and teaching room that could also be used in the evenings for practice etc.

Gentlemen - and Mr P Sumner in particular - with the greatest respect I have not been knocking Steinway, Yamaha or anyone else. (My remarks about investment are not knocking - just wearing an accounting hat and applying the facts in a logical way). I suggest you are being a touch over sensitive.

That said, I must admit, that these days I am less and less interested in brand names. Pianos are made of wood and metal and the differences (comparing pianos of like size) are not as great as the similarities. As the committee is well aware, I did a very extensive piano shop myself and at one time was very focussed on the differences between top end instruments. It was documented here at length when I first joined, 2,500 posts ago.

I then had a number of piano changes as a result of separation, moving three times and living in three different countries. This give me a much wider acquaintance with some different pianos such as Boesendorfer Imperial, Fazioli 272 , Grotrian (6ft ish) Steinway D, Yamaha Clavinova CLP 280, Boston, 6ft Yamaha among others, and I ended up with a much more open mind. I can be pretty happy with most medium to large grands if they are well prepped. Sure I have preferences, but I do not let them override the purpose of the piano - which is to make music.

Lately I have expressed the view, that I still hold, that the quality of the pianist makes a great deal more difference than the quality of the piano. I have said as much to the committee. They are unconvinced I am sad to say! Ah, the power of marketing...

Steinway make good pianos in Germany - I totally agree - indeed I have about 300 hours or more on a D in the past year or two and I have said I really like it. But slavish adherence to the the doctrine "they are the best" is ridiculous in my opinion.

Anyway, I remain grateful for the considered input and I will put all good ideas and useful insights to the committee on Friday afternoon. Whether that will result in a decision is any-ones guess .

Kind regards

Adrian

Both pianos have proven themselves to be among the best. In the hands of capable technicians either one will satisfy most but never all. Try the loaner aproach and let majority rule. You're in a no lose situation.

If the Yamaha is so comparable to the Steinway, why is it so heavily discounted?

Let me phrase it differently: If they were the same price, would there still be a question of which to buy?

AJB consider a Shigeru Kawai. It will cover all your needs at exceed your expectations.

Best Regards,

Jeffrey Shackell is a Steinway dealer and restorer and also sells Yamaha, near Witney. He has a very good reputation. Might be worth a call?
http://www.shackellpianos.co.uk/

Although these two posts seem to contradict each other, in fact they may not. Patrick is correct that Yamahas in general have a reputation of good tuning stability. But Keith is correct that the Yamaha CFIIIS has some problems. I have personally experienced this and have talked to Yamaha service reps and Yamaha technicians about this problem.

No one is willing to go on record, but here are the goods:
The CFIII has tuning pin plate bushings. The designers decided to drop these on the CFIIIS. The sturdy Yamaha plate in the tuning pin fields means that the thin tuning pins are unsupported for maybe 12 - 14 mm between the pin block and the point where the string wire exerts tension on the pin (my estimate - I don't have piano to check right now).

Furthermore, Yamaha maintained the thin tuning pins used on the CFIII. I thought they are 7.00 mm but I was told they are even 6.90 mm. The result is a lot of "flagpoling" of the thin tuning pins. It makes it very difficult to tune, and if the tuning pin is not perfectly set (a lot less tolerance than other designs) the tuning will be instable.

S&S doesn't use plate bushings either (incentive for Yamaha?).
But the Steinway pins are thicker, stronger and less flexible, and I believe the S&S plate is thinner here so the unsupported length of the tuning pin is shorter.

I know it is “just a technical detail”, but unless the CFIIIS is serviced by a very skilled and experienced technician, this piano may end up perpetually out of tune, or close to it. And how lovely will such a piano sound?

I couldn’t agree more. I would try to open the field of discussion again. (Maybe Bösendorfer is not that bad, now that Yamaha owns them ) Think Sauter, Grotrian, Schimmel. You have mentioned Steingraeber. All amazing pianos.
There is more than just vanilla available.

This is indeed the truth. I had the pleasure of servicing a Seiler 278 concert grand yesterday, including a fair amount of regulation. The piano is about 2 years old. A very refined yet powerful instrument indeed! This one might be worth looking at, too. Just to add to the confusion, of course.

Today I tuned a 4 year old S and S "D." Powerful, colorful, yes...refined, no. Ooodles of potential, though, and I'm looking forward to the next appointment because it really needs voicing. The bass is brassy-bright, the treble and mid-ranges were tonally very uneven. The room this is in is, shall we say, live. No furniture, 20 foot ceilings, 25 x 30 or so floor space, hardwood floors, no carpets, no pictures, no furniture, just a piano and the echos of tiny little "beats." My ears are still hurting!

Both great instruments, but without the Steinway being anywhere near its potential, it's hard to make a fair comparison.

Dave, you shouldn't be punishing your body with those kind of tunings. For those situations, I use my noise cancelling tuning system. Noise Canceling Tuning System "Don't go there without it" to paraphrase a famous slogan.

But to stay on topic:
Yes, Seiler, Blüthner..... Does Förster make a 275?

And, uhmmmmm, has anyone mentioned Steingraeber? I hear they will fly in clients to their wonderful little plant, put them up, wine and dine them.... "Kaffee mit Udo..." The perks alone are enough reason to buy. And then you get this amazing instrument on top of it all....

By Supply:
So then, where are the Estonia aficionados this time?

Isn't the Estonia Concert L274 selling well as 'the Steinway of the poor' to music schools, concert event halls in the U.S.? Or are merely the 168 and 190 grands popular?

schwammerl.

OK, this is a very truncated summary of the brand considerations and lets you know why we have the Yamaha versus Steinway debate.

Estonia is not readily available in the UK. No concert grands to try. I have never seen one and I am the most committed shopper on the committee.
Concert sized Schimmels not seen. No demand apparently.
Sauter not readily available in the UK and no techs with familiarity.
Bluthner - not much liked by anyone on the committee. Perceived, rightly or wrongly, as not powerful enough. Little choice.
Bechstein - music director does not like them. And the committee wants a change
Boesendorfer - no credible UK dealership for the past two years. Imperial too big to move around and no new ones in stock anyway. Next size down is perceived as markedly inferior to Steinway D
Steingreaber - I like them a lot but I am the only one who has heard of them. Concert grands readily available from stock (including Phoenix model)
Grotrian - I have never seen a new concert grand in the UK. Not aware of a suitable dealer with stock. I like Grotrians. No one else on the committee has heard of them.
Petrof - perceived as inferior brand from long ago. Not readily available anyway.
Fazioli - too expensive. And one member says they are too flashy.
Stuart. Unknown to committee. Much too expensive. Too powerful for the venue.
Forster - unknown in the UK really
Seiler - unknown.

Steinway. Everyone knows the brand. D's readily available. Good tuners and techs readily available. Several to choose from. Low risk for committee - no one will criticise this choice. New music director (not yet appointed - Autumn 2008) unlikely to moan. Likely to be preferred by visiting artists.

Yamaha. Everyone knows the brand. Concert size readily available. Several to choose from. Quite a bit cheaper so this possibly enables another option to be pursued with the money saved.

The committee is absolutely not interested in trailing around Europe looking at pianos. There is zippo prospect therefore of anyone going to the Estonia factory or anywhere other than one of the big dealers in London or nearby to view pianos.

To be blunt most of the committee cannot tell one piano from another except by the name on the fallboard. They are torn between perceived status and the need to husband legacy money carefully.

No one on the committee is interested in taking a risk on anything except a well know brand. They want the assurance that the dealer will still be there ten years from now and if there is a problem the dealer will fix it without a lot of hassle.

Since the (out of tune) Bechstein is sold - and only remaining in the hall pending arrival of a new piano - the committee needs to get on with it now.

Hopefully some sort of decision will be made tomorrow.

Kind regards

Adrian

Adrian;

I do not envy your situation. Good luck working with the committee and choose wisely!

Thanks IB.

I forgot Kawai, which is odd as I used to have a Boston. Anyway, I have not seen a concert grand in any of the dealers we have contacted. The reasonably local dealer can get us one, but we have to buy it sight unseen, which is not clever.

A

Adrian,

Having read the entire thread I was leaning toward the Steinway all along. Then I got to Jurgen's post that discussed the tuning pins in the CFIIIS. That sealed it for me and it sounds like the kind of information that could move a committee towards consensus. Sadly that would mean no opportunity to buy a second piano, but it would assure that tuning issues with the primary instrument would be minimized. You could always use the price quoted for the Yamaha as a bargaining chip with the Steinway dealer, the old "give me a reason to make the right decision" argument. Good luck.

Just like "no body ever got fired for buying IBM,"
"no body ever loses face for buying Steinway."

I have tuned a lot of CFIIISes since they were introduced and do not see the problems Jurgen has. I think Steinways may be a bit more sensitive to changes in climate than the Yamahas. I tuned a fairly new Hamburg D once that was badly out of tune, and was told that it had just been tuned, but I think that was the tuner, not the piano.

As I said before, I think that the pianos are very similar, and that sample differences may be greater than design differences. The Yamahas are very consistent, however, much more so than their other models.

I cannot speak to their longevity. After all, how do you compare a model that is less than 20 years old to one that is 125 years old? The Yamahas I see are heavily used for concerts, the Steinways less so, so while I do see that the Yamahas wear, I have seen similar wear in Steinways that get the same sort of use. There are a lot of Steinways that are wonderful pianos even when they are 50, 75 or 100 years old with nothing more than new strings and hammers. I have not played or tuned the first Yamaha that I saw (perhaps the first in the US) since it was retired, reconditioned, and installed at a local college, but it sounds nice, and someone who plays it told me she thought it was too nice a piano for that school.

For me, it would be a tough choice. I will say that there is one advantage to either of these pianos that would weigh me in their favor over other makes, and that is the reliability of the companies. You should be able to get parts and service for them for the foreseeable future.

The issues can be measured - tuning pin diameter and unsupported height above the pin block. Flagpoling can also be measured. I suppose. My experiences were confirmed to me privately by Yamaha industry people and by Keith K in this thread.

As I said, it takes a special knack to get rock solid tunings on these pianos. It looks like you have that knack. Good for you.

The Steinway D is widely recognized on concert stages around the world. The Yamaha CFIIIS has and is garnering more and more finalist selections in international competition.

I don't know the details of the evolution of the Yamaha concert grand regarding copying S&S. I believe all manufacturers take a good long look at what has gone before and try to build on that and improve on that.

The two pianos are two different animals, utilizing different materials and construction techniques. The are the epitome representatives of the Euro camp in touch and tone and the Asian camp.

IMO the values of each instrument at year 10, 20, and 30 will likely mirror each other proportionately. Resale markets for 9' grands are very small as has already been stated.

I like Kia's suggestion of securing a two week loan trial of both at the same time and let several folks play and vote. Either choice is a winner on several levels.