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#103482 - 01/10/08 02:45 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Stahl:
Today I tuned a 4 year old S and S "D." .... The room this is in is, shall we say, live. No furniture, 20 foot ceilings, 25 x 30 or so floor space, hardwood floors, no carpets, no pictures, no furniture, just a piano and the echos of tiny little "beats." My ears are still hurting!
Dave, you shouldn't be punishing your body with those kind of tunings. For those situations, I use my noise cancelling tuning system. Noise Canceling Tuning System "Don't go there without it" to paraphrase a famous slogan.

But to stay on topic:
 Quote:
I had the pleasure of servicing a Seiler 278 concert grand yesterday.... A very refined yet powerful instrument indeed! This one might be worth looking at, too. Just to add to the confusion, of course.
Yes, Seiler, Blüthner..... Does Förster make a 275?

And, uhmmmmm, has anyone mentioned Steingraeber? I hear they will fly in clients to their wonderful little plant, put them up, wine and dine them.... "Kaffee mit Udo..." The perks alone are enough reason to buy. And then you get this amazing instrument on top of it all.... ;\)
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#103483 - 01/10/08 03:08 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
By Supply:
 Quote:
There is more than just vanilla available.
So then, where are the Estonia aficionados this time?

Isn't the Estonia Concert L274 selling well as 'the Steinway of the poor' to music schools, concert event halls in the U.S.? Or are merely the 168 and 190 grands popular?

schwammerl.

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#103484 - 01/10/08 05:14 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
OK, this is a very truncated summary of the brand considerations and lets you know why we have the Yamaha versus Steinway debate.

Estonia is not readily available in the UK. No concert grands to try. I have never seen one and I am the most committed shopper on the committee.
Concert sized Schimmels not seen. No demand apparently.
Sauter not readily available in the UK and no techs with familiarity.
Bluthner - not much liked by anyone on the committee. Perceived, rightly or wrongly, as not powerful enough. Little choice.
Bechstein - music director does not like them. And the committee wants a change
Boesendorfer - no credible UK dealership for the past two years. Imperial too big to move around and no new ones in stock anyway. Next size down is perceived as markedly inferior to Steinway D
Steingreaber - I like them a lot but I am the only one who has heard of them. Concert grands readily available from stock (including Phoenix model)
Grotrian - I have never seen a new concert grand in the UK. Not aware of a suitable dealer with stock. I like Grotrians. No one else on the committee has heard of them.
Petrof - perceived as inferior brand from long ago. Not readily available anyway.
Fazioli - too expensive. And one member says they are too flashy.
Stuart. Unknown to committee. Much too expensive. Too powerful for the venue.
Forster - unknown in the UK really
Seiler - unknown.

Steinway. Everyone knows the brand. D's readily available. Good tuners and techs readily available. Several to choose from. Low risk for committee - no one will criticise this choice. New music director (not yet appointed - Autumn 2008) unlikely to moan. Likely to be preferred by visiting artists.

Yamaha. Everyone knows the brand. Concert size readily available. Several to choose from. Quite a bit cheaper so this possibly enables another option to be pursued with the money saved.

The committee is absolutely not interested in trailing around Europe looking at pianos. There is zippo prospect therefore of anyone going to the Estonia factory or anywhere other than one of the big dealers in London or nearby to view pianos.

To be blunt most of the committee cannot tell one piano from another except by the name on the fallboard. They are torn between perceived status and the need to husband legacy money carefully.

No one on the committee is interested in taking a risk on anything except a well know brand. They want the assurance that the dealer will still be there ten years from now and if there is a problem the dealer will fix it without a lot of hassle.

Since the (out of tune) Bechstein is sold - and only remaining in the hall pending arrival of a new piano - the committee needs to get on with it now.

Hopefully some sort of decision will be made tomorrow.

Kind regards

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103485 - 01/10/08 09:04 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
I. Bruton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 861
Loc: Raleigh
Adrian;

I do not envy your situation. Good luck working with the committee and choose wisely!
_________________________
I. Bruton
B.A. Music Composition
M.M. Music Education
High School Choral Director
Church Music Director
Pianos owned: Yamaha C3
Pianos at work: Yamaha P22, Kawai K3, Steinway B

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#103486 - 01/10/08 10:09 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Thanks IB.

I forgot Kawai, which is odd as I used to have a Boston. Anyway, I have not seen a concert grand in any of the dealers we have contacted. The reasonably local dealer can get us one, but we have to buy it sight unseen, which is not clever.

A
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103487 - 01/10/08 10:44 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2778
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Adrian,

Having read the entire thread I was leaning toward the Steinway all along. Then I got to Jurgen's post that discussed the tuning pins in the CFIIIS. That sealed it for me and it sounds like the kind of information that could move a committee towards consensus. Sadly that would mean no opportunity to buy a second piano, but it would assure that tuning issues with the primary instrument would be minimized. You could always use the price quoted for the Yamaha as a bargaining chip with the Steinway dealer, the old "give me a reason to make the right decision" argument. Good luck.

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#103488 - 01/10/08 10:45 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
Just like "no body ever got fired for buying IBM,"
"no body ever loses face for buying Steinway.[/b]" ;\)
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#103489 - 01/10/08 11:52 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21821
Loc: Oakland
I have tuned a lot of CFIIISes since they were introduced and do not see the problems Jurgen has. I think Steinways may be a bit more sensitive to changes in climate than the Yamahas. I tuned a fairly new Hamburg D once that was badly out of tune, and was told that it had just been tuned, but I think that was the tuner, not the piano.

As I said before, I think that the pianos are very similar, and that sample differences may be greater than design differences. The Yamahas are very consistent, however, much more so than their other models.

I cannot speak to their longevity. After all, how do you compare a model that is less than 20 years old to one that is 125 years old? The Yamahas I see are heavily used for concerts, the Steinways less so, so while I do see that the Yamahas wear, I have seen similar wear in Steinways that get the same sort of use. There are a lot of Steinways that are wonderful pianos even when they are 50, 75 or 100 years old with nothing more than new strings and hammers. I have not played or tuned the first Yamaha that I saw (perhaps the first in the US) since it was retired, reconditioned, and installed at a local college, but it sounds nice, and someone who plays it told me she thought it was too nice a piano for that school.

For me, it would be a tough choice. I will say that there is one advantage to either of these pianos that would weigh me in their favor over other makes, and that is the reliability of the companies. You should be able to get parts and service for them for the foreseeable future.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#103490 - 01/10/08 02:06 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
[QB] I have tuned a lot of CFIIISes since they were introduced and do not see the problems Jurgen has.
The issues can be measured - tuning pin diameter and unsupported height above the pin block. Flagpoling can also be measured. I suppose. My experiences were confirmed to me privately by Yamaha industry people and by Keith K in this thread.

As I said, it takes a special knack to get rock solid tunings on these pianos. It looks like you have that knack. Good for you.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#103491 - 01/10/08 02:39 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Craigen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 1815
Loc: West Coast
The Steinway D is widely recognized on concert stages around the world. The Yamaha CFIIIS has and is garnering more and more finalist selections in international competition.

I don't know the details of the evolution of the Yamaha concert grand regarding copying S&S. I believe all manufacturers take a good long look at what has gone before and try to build on that and improve on that.

The two pianos are two different animals, utilizing different materials and construction techniques. The are the epitome representatives of the Euro camp in touch and tone and the Asian camp.

IMO the values of each instrument at year 10, 20, and 30 will likely mirror each other proportionately. Resale markets for 9' grands are very small as has already been stated.

I like Kia's suggestion of securing a two week loan trial of both at the same time and let several folks play and vote. Either choice is a winner on several levels.
_________________________
Piano Technician, member Piano Technicians Guild.

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#103492 - 01/10/08 03:09 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
So Adrian
- flip a coin. \:D
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#103493 - 01/10/08 05:18 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1531
Loc: New York
I am surprised to hear the CFIII is substantially less money in the UK. Here in New York when I was shopping the Yamaha was a few thousand more than the S&S. This does not take into account that the Yamaha price probably could have been negotiated while the S&S price could not.

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#103494 - 01/10/08 05:23 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
I. Bruton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 861
Loc: Raleigh
I also noticed that a few years ago. I believe the CFIIIS was roughly $125K...can anyone tell us the current list price?
_________________________
I. Bruton
B.A. Music Composition
M.M. Music Education
High School Choral Director
Church Music Director
Pianos owned: Yamaha C3
Pianos at work: Yamaha P22, Kawai K3, Steinway B

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#103495 - 01/10/08 05:37 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
$149,395 for the polished ebony
$151,195 for the satin ebony
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

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#103496 - 01/11/08 05:36 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
List prices are of course irrelevant. A couple of years ago, when I first looked at CFIIIS, the UK list price was roughly about £70,000 yet the pianos were advertised by Yamaha dealers on the internet for around £40,000. I think the cheapest I saw on the internet was £37,000. Used ones less than five years old were selling in the £20k's.

Internet prices have disappeared with Yamaha's price support policy, but the discounts from these prices remain.

I would be astonished if anyone clued up paid remotely close to list for a Yamaha.

Perhaps the US position is different. The very weak dollar obviously has a major role for imports.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103497 - 01/11/08 07:33 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Steve Ramirez Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 1098
Loc: El Cajon, California
 Quote:
Originally posted by AJB:
I know that members here will be inclined to say pick the piano that sounds best. The reality is that in the hall concerned, especially if the piano is being used for accompanying voices or other instruments, I rather doubt that most of the audience could tell the difference between them. [/b]
In theory maybe. But at some point there will be actual pianos to select or reject, and those pianos may have unique characteristics that will influence the outcome of the model D vs. CFIIIs debate. Try moving this thing along to the selection process without ruling out either maker and see what happens. Othewise, you may be unhappy when the actual piano is selected.

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#103498 - 01/11/08 08:12 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
I agree Steve, but I have to consider the practicalities of doing as you suggest. The reason I made the remark that you quoted is that usage is a factor: much of the time the piano is used as an accompanying instrument, either to voices, as part of an ensemble or both. In such cases the mix tends to obscure the sound. However, at other times it is used for solo recitals and that is more challenging.

Things have moved on slightly this morning.

The Committee meeting is at 2 pm and it is now 1 pm.

I need to get the decision made. One of my colleagues has approached dealers this week, at my behest, with a view to a side by side comparison and one of the brands has refused. Their counter offer is that if we pick their piano we can change it for another piano from the same company if voicing does not deliver what we want. I am unimpressed but we will see what other members think.

The other company has no problem with a side by side comparison. They have also said that we can take their piano on approval for a short period, allow it to settle, tune and voice it, and if we don't like it we can send it back. Our exposure is a share of the transport costs if we return it.

We have final quotes with both brands knowing that price is a factor. We also have, at the last minute, an interesting import option for a lightly used almost two year old instrument that comes recommended from someone credible.

The Chairwoman - who I though was computer illiterate (sorry Amanda) advises me that she was flattered by my assessment of her being a grade 5 player as she believes she only passed grade 2 and that was, shall we say, a while ago.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to our evaluation process.

Kind regards

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103499 - 01/11/08 08:42 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
RachOn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 88
Loc: W. Pa.
OK, I'm really curious which brand said no to the side-by-side....
_________________________
RachOn
Estonia 190; Yamaha U1

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#103500 - 01/11/08 09:09 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
hv Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: Cape Cod
Adrian,

It sounds to me like the reluctant dealer is really objecting to any trial period absent a commitment to buy. Maybe you should try talking short-term rental with option to buy instead.

Howard

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#103501 - 01/11/08 09:15 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by RachOn:
OK, I'm really curious which brand said no to the side-by-side.... [/b]
Likewise! As a Yamaha owner I am predisposed to believe that Yamaha was the company who would allow a side by side. Steinway being the "tow the line" sort of company with their prices leads me to believe that they are the nay sayers.

But - ???

Can't wait to hear the rest of this story.

Mike
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#103502 - 01/11/08 10:22 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
My thought on the live trial of each type of instrument was that each instrument gets a month of its own in the hall. The side by side comparison may be too difficult to arrange because to do it properly each instrument would have to take turns in the same location with the same artistic circumstances. I don't think going first or second would give an instrument any particular advantage as long as they each get a month with chamber, vocal, solo or whatever type of concerts would likely be programmed.

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#103503 - 01/12/08 05:04 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1732
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#103504 - 01/12/08 08:53 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1531
Loc: New York
I have to agree Dave, I played a number of CF3's at the Yamaha artist center in NYC and while they are very nice they are not as good as a good D. I will say their actions are very good. In addition I never had any trouble at all with my C3 that I owned for over 20 years. In fact the tuner/tech who inspected for the buyer thought I never used it, it stood up so well. It was heavily used. Still its the sound of my D that keeps me at the keyboard for so many more hours.

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#103505 - 01/12/08 01:15 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
jazzpianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 143
Loc: London
I agree too. I am a huge Yamaha fan - I play several C3s in various gigs, there are several Yamahas at work, and for just over a year I have owned and loved a C7 - but I have begun to think (maybe realise) that nothing beats a Steinway [Hamburg] D. IMO there is a magic which I cannot easily describe.

A few weeks ago I again played a CFIIIS in the wonderful Yamaha showroom in Chappell of Bond Street. Then within half an hour I played two or three Steinway Ds at Steinway Hall. To my mind there was really no comparison and, in fact, the CFIIIS seemed a little boring by comparison. Whether the Steinway is worth the extra money, given the start and original context of this thread, is another matter.

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#103506 - 01/13/08 10:14 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Apologies for absence of posts on this. In bed with flu. Not feeling internet friendly.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103507 - 01/13/08 10:20 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
Get well soon.
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#103508 - 01/13/08 01:12 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14199
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
AJB, you're not in a particularly enviable position in this debacle! Personally, I wouldn't even try to comment or add to the question at hand.

The only thing I can say is that in my many travels to places of manufacture of fine pianos in Europe/Germany, I have had the chance to play a good number of 9' concert grands on many occasions.

Some of them have left me in sheer awe with the indelible impressions that the finest there is can often be found in places least suspected.

If these visits would have been reduced to only 2 places - so would have been my impressions and, i.e. 'choices' or 'possibilities' in a large and very interesting world out there.

Regretfully, you have to work within this rather *restricted* situation.

In a world of ever larger boundaries, widening perspectives and better understanding of the world all around us, this is particularly sad.

P.S. Hope you're feeling better soon!

Norbert \:\)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#103509 - 01/13/08 10:07 PM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
masaki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 374
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
AJB,
 Quote:
I forgot Kawai, which is odd as I used to have a Boston. Anyway, I have not seen a concert grand in any of the dealers we have contacted. The reasonably local dealer can get us one, but we have to buy it sight unseen, which is not clever.
 FYI, Shigeru Kawai EX is listpriced JPY15,000,000, while CFIIIS is listpriced JPY11,000,000(actually retailed at under JPY10,000,000) in Japan. I guess the SK EX is sold more expencively than the S&S D in Europe.

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#103510 - 01/14/08 03:17 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Thank you masaki. Whilst the list prices are interesting, the cold reality in Europe is that Kawai has as much chance of selling Shigerus for more than Steinways as a snowflake has of surviving in a hot oven.

In my limited experience Japanese made pianos have to undercut the likes of Steinway (hamburg) and Fazioli very substantially in order to have a hope of selling. This probably has more to do with history, brand perception and marketing, than any objective evaluation of the instruments.

A
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#103511 - 01/14/08 03:45 AM Re: Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
This is what happened. I’m afraid it is a little bizarre.

Yamaha was ruled out. This was for reasons that I did not anticipate until the story unfolded after lunch on Friday. The legacy was from a wealthy widow of a former soldier. We learned that her husband had been imprisoned in Japan during WW2. The eldest son of the widow, who attended as a “friend” of the Committee, made a representation to members that he believed that his parents would prefer us not to purchase an instrument made in Japan. This wish has no binding effect as it was never mentioned as a restriction in the legacy, but the Committee felt unanimously that his views should be respected.

He wondered if a suitable instrument could be purchased from an English manufacturer. He was advised that the piano industry in this country is largely defunct. Leaving aside American imports of brands such as Mason & Hamlin (not available here), the best instruments came from Germany, Austria and Italy. You can see where I am going with this can’t you?

There was rather more debate about this aspect than anything to do with the pianos themselves. I am aware that the Chairwoman may well read this, but the fact is for me it was rather like spending a few hours in a parallel universe. It was all well before my time, though I respect the emotions involved.

So, to the decision. This took about 5 minutes…..

As a result of the posting on this forum, a dealer in Switzerland who is known to me (I used to live there for a while) contacted us with details of a piano from a recently deceased person. The piano is being disposed of by the executors of the estate. It is only 20 months old. No one on the committee has either seen it or played it. However, the dealer has a good reputation and is well known to a music conservatory in Switzerland that I have maintained in contact with. This Hamburg D is stated to be in excellent condition and we have no reason to disbelieve this. The Swiss tend to be very straightforward about such things.

In a short telephone call with the Executor, we agreed to buy this piano. The dealer contact will receive a small commission. It really is small and I know he is doing us a favour as a decent guy: it is in effect a charity deal. He will warrant the condition etc and we are assured the piano remains guaranteed by the Hamburg factory. He will arrange shipping at our cost. He has quoted a fixed price for this, though we have to wait a few weeks for a consolidated transport arrangement as that is much cheaper. After all this we save over £31,000 against Steinway list price in the UK and over £23,000 against the real price of a new piano. In other words it is not a million miles away from a new CFIIIS (which would still have been a bit cheaper).

The reasons that this option was chosen, despite some risk of buying a sight unseen instrument, were:

1 The Committee was very taken with the idea of using the funds saved, to buy another good piano for use in a student rehearsal and recital room. In fact a member has generously offered to pay for the room to be redecorated and another has equally generously offered to contribute some funds for tuition and maintenance.

2 The Committee believes that our ex Steinway UK technician will be able to tune and voice the piano to the satisfaction of visiting artists and the resident players. He has confirmed that he expects not to have an issue with this.

3 If the worst comes to the worst and the piano is not to our taste, then it should not be impossible to sell at close to what we paid for it. I doubt this will be the case though.

4 The father worked in the City after the war, trading stocks and shares and his son felt he would approve of this “deal” being in keeping with the spirit of the old man. I thought that was a pretty good recommendation really.

OK, I know this goes against all the usual principles of piano buying. But, I do think it will turn out to be a good outcome. After all, the instrument is not for one individual, but for many, so who is to say that the taste of one of us should prevail. And the saving plus the generous gifts is enough to buy a good quality new or newish 6ft or 7ft piano for student and intimate recital use. That was a major factor.

May I take this opportunity to thank Piano World members for their useful contribution to the lead up to this rather strange decision, and may I also apologise to those Committee members who may read this for my entirely unwarranted and unreasonably harsh descriptions of their hearing, musical perception and ability to tell one piano from another!

Kind regards

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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