Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Quickness of Scale Runs (Is that the right term?)

Hi all,

Just joined the forums as you guys seem to have a great community here for help and support. Guess I should say that I'm 20, so just an Adult :p , and I just picked up the piano again after not playing it for 4 years or so. I had about 3 yrs experience prior to that and so I'm trying to return to my former "greatness" if you will .

Anyway my question is a piece I'm trying to tackle now has many 'runs' up the keys - things like playing E-G-B in each octave from low to high and more complex runs that constantly go up and down 2 octaves and it all has to be played very fast.
Problem is my fingers just don't seem to want to move that fast, especially when I have to octave jump, there is always slight gaps as I get my fingers in position for the next partof the run.
Has anyone got any advice on how to build up speed and dexterous of my fingers? Or is it just one of those things that comes with time and I'm just being impatiant .

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for some beginner classical pieces for someone with say 2 yrs playing experience? I'll do a search on the forums, but just in case .

Thanks guys.

have you read that famous Chang's book:

http://staff.mwsc.edu/~bhugh/piano-practice.html#principles

there is a section where he talks about the way to play fast: parallel sets, scales and etc. it all comes down to the movements you use to play fast.

Scales and arpeggios *slowly* at first building up in tempo with time (a bilingual redundancy. How about that). If it doesn't feel natural it will sound the same.

Daystar,

What you're talking about is arpeggios, not scales. Yes one of the problems is playing them without a break when you shift hand positions. Part of the solution is a pivot and rotation of the wrist, making sure your thumb follows along so it is in position for the new hand position, and maintaining an overall lateral movement of the arms and torso.

If you're starting out again after having taken time off, I'd do what JBryan said, and begin slowly, then build up tempo over time. You need to listen carefully to the sound you are producing on the piano.

If you want, you can take a look at that Chang book, but it has very limited applications, and I don't agree with a lot of what's in the book.

BTW, do you have a teacher, and what were you working on before you took time off?

Daystar, I wish I could help, but I'm having the same problem.

I have an arpeggio in my "Malaguena" duo. My partner is holding a note, and I'm supposed to fire off this arpeggio sequence that goes has about 17 notes in it, including a part where one hand passes under the other to repeat two notes of the arpeggio. This all takes place in one beat, with the notation "Rapido" underneath. Like, *duh!*

I started off using a metronome with one click for each note. When I got it, I'd dial it up a click. I seem to have hit a wall, well under performance tempo. My teacher says to focus on getting the second hand into position quickly, but that's not getting it done.

When my teacher plays it, it sound like running water. When I play it, it sounds like someone stumbling around in a China shop.

I don't see how I'll ever play this at tempo.

So. Uh . . . . Did that help?

And just because Lecuona was a smarta$$, you get to do *two* different versions on successive stanzas. Fortunately, one of them is nearly the same as that last big one in DeBussey's "Clair de Lune" (minus that jog back) so you're doing double duty by learning it.

I assume your fingering must be different than mine with larger hands, because I have no need to use the other hand to get those notes where the arpeggio drops from the F# back to D in the one that appears twice and from E# to C# on the other? Those instances fall comfortably within the span of one hand for me, with the return step up being the comfortable place for the right hand to take over. I hadn't really thought about it until you said that, but we pianists playing the same identical piece must have very different fingering methods for doing it with our different sizes of hands and a list of our fingerings/hands without reference to notes would likely never prompt us to identify the same piece.

I spent *hours* practicing those arpeggios. But they became my favorite part of that piece.

What part are you doing in the duo? Not having done a duo I have no clue. Does one do essentially the left hand or right hand or is it split up with some of each for each player? If we ever meet at a PW gathering, *you* can have those 6 stanzas of repeated quintuplets!

ChickGrand, I'm doing the easy part, of course!

Secundo, that is. (Or is it "segundo?")

Actually, I've vowed to dial it up a notch and get this piece ready. See, my teacher's mom was a teacher. My teacher remembers her childhood in which her mom performed this duo with "her best student." My teacher has been teaching for 20 years, but she has never proposed doing this duo with any of her students. Just me.

I would hate to disappoint!

Sorry for the hijack, Daystar . . . .

I think that's a fine compliment. (But I can see where it would also be, "the pressure is on".)

I didn't know there *were* any "easy" parts in "Malaguena".

(Further off topic. I've noticed your little asterisk methodology used over in YahooLand as adopted by me as above has now spread far afield to others you haven't even met in other forums, after they saw me using your convention. Next thing you know, it'll be a full-fledged trend. Everytime I see someone doing it, I think, "There's CindySphinx's Stars!". )

Hee! Yeah, let's call them "sphinxstars." On account of what they kind of resemble.

I didn't invent it, though. I *stole* it from someone else on a Yahoogroup!

The other thing people used to do on that list was sign their names with an adjective and exclamation point.

Bored!Cindy -- who is waiting for a furniture delivery until noon and who should be using this lockdown time to practice

I like it.

I've always thought Cindy's post had a little ring of truth.

Speed and accuracy come in years of training, so keep on playing, with certain finger exercises, such as Hanon, your finger will build up strength over years.

For 2 years of piano study, you can try some of the Piano Celebration Series - Repertoire Book or Neil Kjos Baroque, Classical, Romantic and 20th century literture collection. I think Celebration Series breaks it down to 12 levels, and Kjos breaks it down to 10 levels, you may want to start with level 1 or 2.Those are orginal pieces from composers in different era, so it's pretty solid standard classical repertoires.

I almost had a cardiac arrest ! The link you provided is to Brent Hugh, a very humble person and a great fellow ! This is a guy I strongly recommend. On the other hand, I have a long disagreement history with CCChang, from the old times of RMMP.

Hi, Daystar!

I'm still struggling with the same issues as you, so I don't have anything to offer beyond seconding (or thirding) the advice offered by JBryan and Phlebas.

Just wanted to say welcome to the forum!

Hope you enjoy your time here . . . Linda

Thanks all for your tips, I'll guess I'll just have to be diligent and patient and work my way up *sigh* that's no fun for the nintendo generation.

sorry for putting a wrong link earlier, here is Chang's book:

http://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

the other link is a good link for practice as well though.

There are a couple methods I can think of for practicing arpeggios that work for me (I think I got the first one from the infamous Chang book):

One is to practice the arpeggiated chord in a block. In other words, play it as a chord. You can use Chang's "gravity drop," where you gradually let your hand drop into the position from higher and higher off the keys. This seems to get your hand into the right position. It worked for me!

Also, I sometimes practice an arpeggio just 2 notes at a time. In other words, just take 2 notes where you aren't smooth, and get your hand to do those 2 notes up to, or as close as possible to correct tempo. Then add 1 note at a time on either side gradually. I actually do even this with the metronome, gradually increasing speed on the 2 notes.

You have to be sure with these exercises that you're really secure at the speed you use before moving on. You shouldn't be struggling to hit the notes, and only achieving it once in awhile, but hitting them well every time before going on.

I'm sure someone will respond if they think my methods are completely crazy!

frida1 -- yes, I'll respond. The advice of playing arpeggios as an octave is great. I find it essential to learn arpeggios that don't come quickly. Working on a Schubert Impromptu that's mostly apeggios and using chords really, really helps.

Second Daystar -- sounds like you just restarted. Presume your hands are not built-up yet -- that will take months or longer to get them flexible and strong again.

Third, I thought you mentioned jumping octaves; one technique is to go an octave higher than is written as an excercise. Try it 7 times or so and then go back to the music; you'll find the jumps much easier now

Hope these help and welcome back to playing.

Ed

When I started piano again (now nearly three years ago), I made the mistake of taking up an amature teacher, hoping to get a cheaper deal. Yeah, well, thanks to her my hands ended up with muscle spasms and my fingers like iron claws...

Anyway, the point Im getting to is that (when I've came to my senses and switched teachers) it took me nearly a year to regain the strenght, speed and dexterity of my fingers. And believe me, I've started over PAINFULLY slow. At one point I thought Id crack and just burn the damn sheets and chop up the instrument (of course, I didn't do it... :p )

So the best thing is to wait for it, time and practice make perfect. As far as arpegio comes, I've never had trouble performing it. On the other hand, Im terrified of playing 16th values in high speed, so... :p

Finally, beginners classical pieces... Id suggest Fur Elise, where the only possible trouble you could have is in the B section. Then there's say, Chopins E-minor prelude (Op.28, no.4), Mendelssohns "Venecei Gondoladal" in f-sharp minor (its very beautiful, but it might get a little musically complicated to perform). You could also try a very nice Bergmuller etude I've played (I can't remember its name correctly, I'll have to check)... Anywho, if you need any sheet music, just ask.