Had an interesting discussion with my teacher at my last lesson. I came in and played a fake book piece (Misty) that I had been working on for a couple of weeks. Got through it without a problem no wrong chords or notes and very fluid. I was happy to play it so well first thing in the lesson. My teacher was happy with it I thought, until he said something like what happened to the timing? I knew the tempo was a little inconsistant but I didn't think I was that noticable or that he would pick up on it and make an issue of it. WRONG....... I can't slide anything by this guy, tried it before, should have known better. Anyway he said the notes and chords are expected to be there, (OK I'll buy that) but the timing has to be right on perfect. The next thing he said was, if you listen to any professional pianist, even the guy at the local piano bar his timing will be right on and that's what separates the good players from the bad players.

Just wondering if anyone else has had this kind of conversation with their teacher. I have a very good relationship with my teacher and appreciate his honesty. Guess I'll have to count everything more seriously.

Stupid question, here, but what does it mean to have timing that is "right on" when you're playing solo piano, particularly from a fake book? If chords and melody can be improvised (around the original structure, of course), can't timing be played with a bit?

same here! my teacher often catches me on timing or rhythm thing whenever i play for him. he seems to always know when my timing or rhythm is off, even just a fraction of a second delay on some notes. it makes me more aware of playing on beats and even transition between bars or phrases.

How do they know your timing is off? Maybe you just want to put a ritard here and there or wherever. I think music played "exact" without any pauses or resistence is mechanical. I like the way Steve Siu plays and want to play like him. He always has a resistence when it comes to his tempo. He speeds up, slows down, delays the beat etc., etc.,

MUSIC...PLAYED...LIKE...THAT...WITH...EXACT...TIMING...LACKS...CHARACTER...AND...EMOTION...JMO!

I can understanding too many counts per measure, but there are many times where I feel music needs to breath and just because the composer didn't allow it to, doesn't mean I have to play it that way, and quite frankly wont! It doesn't sound good to be so mechanical. I love a song that has wandering tempo. Listen to "Steve Siu" and you'll know what I mean. I love it. His music has so much emotion. When we speak we don't speak in "perfect rhythm!!! We talk louder, softer, faster, slower. We pause, we think we articulate! We should also compose our music this way so that we know it's ours!!! If we all learned to play the exact way with "perfect" timing/tempo what would separate us from them?

Oh...I get this aalllll the time. "The listener will know." He says.....Even music he hasn't heard before he instantly picks up on any missed beats etc. I'm not advanced enough to get away with calling anything interpretation... ..yet

Classical music is different than pop music. I've been gigging (not piano) since I was little, and I always play a mix of classical and pop music. My teacher always told me that the timing on popular music needs to be perfect. You need to count it out. It seems to me that in popular music you have melody, harmony, and rhythm. You can improvise chords on pop music because you can fool with the notes a little bit while keeping the same chord and the same harmony that was intended. You can't change the rhythm because it's written precisely; it's not possible to tweak it and keep the essence there, in the same way that you can't just go and change the melody of a pop song.

I don't do any pop music with my piano teacher, Frank, but he gets me on timing every time. I'll play something for him, and he'll pick out a measure where I was adding an 1/8 beat. Your inconsistant timing probably wasn't just slowing down the ending or picking it up at the chorus; you were probably adding/deleting beats in the measures. You should make sure your teacher tells you exactly where and how your timing was off, so that you can correct it. Timing is also important for popular music because it's not just piano; the music is intended as if you're accompanying a singer and playing with a guitar or other instrument.

Absolutely! If you're only going to be playing for yourself, then it's not that big an issue. But if your goal is to be able to play for other people, then yes, your timing NEEDS to be spot on.

Why? Because as you're playing, they are tapping their foot and singing. When you add an extra beat or accidentally remove a beat, it throws the listener off and they stop tapping and they stop humming or singing along. If your timing is off, then it's as if you're playing a different song from the one that they're familiar with. They may say that it sounds lovely, but it doesn't *connect* to them.

The best thing you can do is to focus on this bug comletely. Start recording your playing and then while you're listening to it, (away from the keyboard), sing along with the recording and tap your foot to it. Try and figure out where and why your timing is going off the track. If you can't hear it, then get someone else to listen to it and point out the spots. If all else fails, take the recording to your teacher and get them to point out the spots where the timing goes off.

Yes, timing can be "played with". But it has to be consistent. You can slow down a phrase or even gradually slow a phrase down to a complete stop. But you can't be adding or removing beats, you can't be changing from 3/4 time to 4/4 time and then back again, and you can't slow down one note (like when you're looking for the right note), expecting your listener to not notice.

A good person to talk to about it is Seaside Lee. He's been killing himself over the last month, trying to put a wooden stake through his timing issues.

So now's the time to get it straight!

I agree; that's why I asked about what "timing" meant in this context. Adding or removing whole beats or changing time signatures (unless they're in the music) aren't really what I think of as timing--those are mistakes. For example, playing dotted-eighth/sixteenth like the first and last beats in a triplet pattern is playing with timing and, in many instances, can be perfectly acceptable. It changes the feel (in this instance, to a swing feel), and can be a new or interesting take on a piece.

There's timing and there's timing... Sure, you can play with the timing of any piece to the extent that you stretch or compress, speed up a bit here, slow it out there, ritard, etc, but it all has to be within the context of the original timing of the piece. For example, I am working on a short dance-type piece now that is in 4/4, but the trouble I am having is that I play the first few measures with more of a 3/4 feel and that throws the whole context of the piece off. Now, I can see a few spots in the thing where I may want to play with a ritard or add a bit of speed here and there, after I fix my timing issues. And I think that's what Frank's teacher is probably picking up on- not so much that he is putting in his own interpretation and bending the song a bit, but there must be spots where he is losing the context because of off timing. (If any of that makes any sort of sense.....)

Alright. I can buy that.

Think about the poor souls trying to dance to your creation. They can't anticipate your rubatos and ritards.

Let's face it, we speed up when it's easy and slow down when we need to search our memory banks.

In my experience, there is nothing more humbling than trying to play a piece that you THINK you have down perfectly to the metronome. When I do so I immediately realize just how off my timing really is. I very rarely can play a piece all the way through and stay on track with the metronome. [My cure for that problem: Don't even try! :p ] An even more humbling experience is to record yourself. I hear very noticeable hesitations etc. on my recordings that I don't perceive while I'm playing, probably because such hesitations occur when I'm engaged in tricky fingering or trying to hit a big stretch in a chord that takes up my concentration. But the Red Dot Does Not Lie.

Thanks all, great responses. Yes timing can be played with but the point my teacher keeps making is that you have to be able to count accurately first, then make it your own but still with a close watch on the rhythm. I told him we were having "an artistic difference", he let me know I wasn't an artist by any streach, so play it by the numbers and he would let me know when I'm allowed to be an artist. He's a real joker........problem is he's usually right.

IrishMac said:

"I think that's what Frank's teacher is probably picking up on- not so much that he is putting in his own interpretation and bending the song a bit, but there must be spots where he is losing the context because of off timing. (If any of that makes any sort of sense.....)"

That's exactly right in my case. A couple of little spots of off timing messes up the whole thing.

My lesson was last Thurs. and I think I've got the trouble spots fixed.......I hope. I'll see next week.

My teach has told me the same...am working on Over The Rainbow and I was "doing" what I thought sounded good concerning timing...WRONG!!! He pointed out that when someone requests to hear that song, they ALREADY have a precieved version in THEIR head as to how it's suppose to sound, that they are requesting to hear that song, played as it is in the movie, that's why they requested it!!! So play it that way for the main part, you can deviate the beginning, the end...but DON'T MESS WITH THE MELODY!!!
Also, people may want to DANCE to it...they need that timing!
My response...Yes Sir,

aaaaaaaaaaaaargh timing!!!

yup timing is sooo important as I have been finding...you can speed up you can slow down of course but if a piece is in 3/4 then you must keep it at a beat of 3/4 all the way through, slipping into 4/4, 5/4 etc etc is now officially known as "Seaside_Lee Affliction #2" and it is a douzie to put right let me tell ya.

Listen to any professionally recorded music...CD's, on the radio, records etc and they will all have a steady repetitive beat (it is the back bone of all music)...yup even an orchestra has a conductor directing the beat.


theres just no getting away from it...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargghhhh!!!

Quote:

"You can slow down a phrase or even gradually slow a phrase down to a complete stop. But you can't be adding or removing beats, you can't be changing from 3/4 time to 4/4 time and then back again, and you can't slow down one note (like when you're looking for the right note), expecting your listener to not notice"

You definately can switch from 3/4 to 2/4 or 4/4 etc., etc., Look at some new age music it goes this way. So does some pop and some Andrea Bocelli stuff. I notice this a lot in the Yanni Music and The Andrea Bocelli stuff. You can say their music has a lot of emotion. As far as pop goes, if you want to play it just as people would sing it then play it that way, but if you want to change up the , etc., etc., then what's wrong with that?

"DON'T MESS WITH THE MElODY"!! What??? who cares? I like music that the melody goes out and comes back in, where you really never get the entire song as it was written. I guess I really like unpredictable music. I really can't stand predictable music. If I wanted to dance or whatever, yes I would want it predictable, but guess what??? No one's dancing to my music and I don't want them to!

YES MESS WITH THE MELODY! Make it your own! Change it up, make it slow/fast/med 3/4 to 2/4 back to 4/4! Don't let the audience predict what song that really is!

I can't stand movies that are predictable and there's a time for predictable music, but even though sometimes I play it as it's written, I don't enjoy it as much as when I hear someone qualified that plays a melody in abstract.

Find the parameters of how far you can go, although it's all subjective, and then do what you want with the music. Yes there are things you can do that just sound stupid, but there are ton of things you can do with the melody to make it unpredictable.

I play for me. If someone wants to hear me great, but it's for my enjoyment. I don't want to play melody "as it's written" so someone can hum, sing or dance to it, I want to play it the way I hear it in my crazy mind! However...if I ask for money to play, then YES, play it how most people hear it, "as it's written" boring...

That's just me

Piano Gal, I think I love you....but I want to know for sure......

(why are 60s and 70s songs stuck in my head? I have not posted in weeks without quoting some song.....does that mean I have reached max capacity in my little brain that I must plagerize basic thought????......)

Well said, but I also have timing issues that are not creative, and I think that's the difference...you must know how to do it before you can "create" something new....

Nice post....

I know what you are saying Piano Gal

But once you can sense timing exactly you can then bend it and play with it....but, you have to get the timing on automatic first.

Its important but, once you get it internalized (something which I am only just starting to conquer (at last... phew!!) and it has been blood sweat and tears for over a year now, with this affliction no kidding ) you'll know and trust me your playing for *YOU* will take on a whole new meaning of fun

Once you've got rhythm things change for the better , its early days yet but, I am starting to feel the difference

regards


Lee

Piano Gal-

To a great extent, I agree with you. If everyone played every song the same, it would be boring, indeed. But, at the same time, you cannot hope to effectively change something if you don't have a good, solid base to work from. If you can't solidly count a piece in 4/4 or 3/4 or whatever, then you can't change from one to the other within a piece and make it correct. And I think that's what many of our teachers are trying to get us beginners to do- get that solid foundation of counting and tempo ingrained in our heads so that we can, at some point, "mess with" some of this stuff, and still have it be musical and correct.

yes...yes...YES!!!

Once you can always play in time you have options to work in and around that timing to create a different feel, a unique sound if you want to...but, ya gots to play in time first.

My teacher tells me almost every gosh darned day "music is melody, harmony and rhythm...and to play well you have to have all 3"


regards


Lee


yes exactly Mak

Hmmmm...I wouldn't agree that this is true all the time. If you're in a sing-along situation, people gathered around the pie-anny belting out songs, I'd concur--melody and timing all need to be consistent with the original, no fancy piano or vocal riffs. I'd say this also goes for situations in which the performer is not the focus of the event, such as wedding receptions, where people are expecting, and requesting, songs they can dance to.

However, in a performance situation in which the performer is the focus, I don't necessarily concur. I'll use the real-life example of Somewhere Over the Rainbow. (Disclosure: I followed American Idol quite closely last season. No, I'm not proud of this fact.) One of the contestants, Katherine McPhee, sang SOTR in one of the last shows. She was accompanied by a guitar with a slow jazz feel to the song. It was just beautiful. Yes, it sounded much different--recognizable, but different. I can't sing to it, but I love listening to it.

If I always want to hear every song sound as close to the original as possible, I'll listen to the original.

What is timing?

It's the most important about comedy.

We are refering to the beat 1 - 2 - 3 - 4

As you play, the 1 beat starts the measure and is/can be accented ONE two three four ONE two three four.... the basic beat...

Sometimes we do 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 etc.....no backbone so to speak. A big problem if sing/dance/other musicians, etc....how do you keep together if you do not count the same as everyone else?...

Hi Markb

yes she did and she sang it beautifully...BUT, she sang it in time

tempo and timing are different, you wouldn't have loved it as much if it had of been out of time

Lee

Timing is the beat, the rhythm of the tune.

Say you're playing Silent Night in 3/4 time and you feel like throwing in an embellishment at the end of the first line. Whatever embellishment you throw in there, must stay within that 3/4 time meter. If it stretches the final beat to 4/4 time and then you switch back to 3/4 time in the next measure, then you've just thrown off your audience.

Is it possible to switch back and forth from 3/4 to 4/4 time as Piano Gal suggests? Absolutely! But it has to be controlled and structured. You can get away with playing the first verse in 3/4 time, then go wild with embellishments in the second verse with 4/4 time, and finally bring it home in the final run through with 3/4 time again. But throw it into 4/4 time for a single phrase in the middle of the verse and you're going to lose your audience. If you can't stick with the same meter for the entire verse, then you'll never be paid for your playing.

Professional jazz musicians are always messing with timing. But they're consistent and structured. They ensure that the audience knows what is going on. You'll notice that nearly all jazz standards play the standard straight on the first and last verse. They don't take sidetracks until the train is well on its way.

Again, if your goal is to only play for yourself and not for other people, then feel free to ignore all this advice.

Quite correct Bob

I know that a little tongue in cheek of course...but, even for those that just play for themselves, learning how to play with correct timing opens up a whole heap of fun once you become your own "controller of timing"

How do I know? Ooooh, lets just say - its only because of the journey I'm presently on


Good interesting topic this


regards


Lee

I love how you put that, Bob! Expresses the point succinctly and accurately.

Quote:
"I think that's what many of our teachers are trying to get us beginners to do- get that solid foundation of counting and tempo ingrained in our heads so that we can, at some point, "mess with" some of this stuff, and still have it be musical and correct,"

I totally agree, it has to sound musical and correct, but isn't that subjective?

Quote by Bob Muir:

"If it stretches the final beat to 4/4 time and then you switch back to 3/4 time in the next measure, then you've just thrown off your audience"

Not true Bob! There is some music, believe it or not, that changes for one measure. Yanni writes a song and it changes fromo 4/4 to 2/4 (for one measure) and then back to 3/4 then to 4/4. He didn't lose his audience at all.

If you have that solid foundation, like was said, you can actually make it smooth as silk. I think the only way to lose an audience to is to be choppy with your music. If you pause let's say in a measure, how do you know if it's a ritard versus someone adding a beat? Well, unless you have the written music, you don't and won't so what's the difference?

I think that yes, you need to be fundamentally correct like Seaside Lee said, and the rules are all gray! You can call it what you want! Is it a ritard, or an added beat or was that chord supposed to be there for color or was it a mistake.

I think as a beginner, which I am, that I cannot do any of this smoothly yet...but, when I can like Lee said, Fundamentally correct, no one will be able to tell because I will be able to smooth out my mistakes and pause (ritard), if I need to think about my next step.

I think it's all subjective, but I think that when a performer "hints" at the melody just to tease and go off on a runs, etc., then comes back with more to tease a little more, then goes away for awhile, maybe go to a different song, and comes back and ends the song with the "written" melody of his original hint, IS AWESOME! I love it, love it love it! I can't do it, but I love it and will learn how.

JMO!

Hi Piano gal

Are you talking about an original composition of Yannis, and is it purely instrumental or with vocals? If its an original instrumental and thats the way it is written then the audience would follow if they knew it.

However take a standard for instance and throw in the odd beat here or there and you will lose the audience (trust me I know LOL)

A lot of it has to do with timing :p


Lee

Can I butt in on this (very interesting) conversation and ask for a clarification? I'm not quite sure I'm understanding everything.

It seems like everyone is generally agreed that it's important to have a strong sense of rhythm and be able to play with accurate timing. Embellishments, arragements and interpretive details on top of this are fine (within reason, of course).

Where I'm getting confused is, when are you saying it's okay to add ritards and pauses? Strictly as an interpretive detail, when you need to think for a second about the fingering... Or achieve both at once?

I primarily play classical music, but I heavily favour romantic music where I often apply liberal amounts of rubato. But I always do this later on in the learning process - I like to be able to play the piece in strict time before I modify it. I don't like tricky fingerings to be a considerations in whether or not I stretch or quicken the time. I would rather it be based entirely on the music. The difference between the two is audible to me (particularly in my practice recordings) and moreover, even slight hesitations for tricky passages leave me with a vaguely "off balance" feeling that's hard to describe. It doesn't have the same organic feeling as a pause that's there for interpretive reasons.

So is my thinking non-applicable because I'm primarily interested in classical? Or is there a way of smoothly and consistently covering up hesitations? Or am I misunderstanding completely?

Yes, and as Seaside said, this is NOT "popular music" that folks sing, hum, and dance along to. Obviously I'm not familiar with that piece, but I really doubt that you could hum along with it unless you were VERY familiar with the piece.

I don't know about the others, but Lee and I are talking about the timing on music that folks like to hum along with and tap their foot to.

Look at Andrew Lloyd Weber's stuff, some time. It's full of time changes.

Pianolina, I'm mainly talking about popular music. Classical is a whole 'nother subject IMO. However, I'm pretty sure that most teachers will insist that you be able to play a piece with consistent, accurate timing before even thinking about consciously applying rubato.

Can you give me an example?

Timing...Your teacher is correct...I studied with very excellent teachers...Two had Master's degrees in music ed, piano as their instrument... the other two were concert pianist...I studied inprov from fake, lead sheets later with an excellent concert level teacher too...His hobby was improv...The TIMING IS EVERYTHING IN MUSIC...You can do whatever you want, as a stylist, with a ,lead, fake sheet but the timing if not correct is not music ...it is noise...Sorry...Here is what I do...Practice only ...not performing...I do not use the pedal at all when working out a lead sheet,fake sheet,the first take....I foot dance with both feet under as I read the sheet melody alone when a piece is difficult to work out...Another method ,there are many, play the one melody note only and count very strict...I used a beginning drummer's book too...when I started improv... I went to sleep counting notes not sheep...Very much good luck to you...Singing is another way to get the timing down on songs with words....What we go through to learn piano...My passion is still the piano at 67 years old now...Sandy B

Hi Frank

Is it full of time changes or is it full of pauses within the timing structure?

which pieces exactly?


Lee

Is it different for popular music?

Sure. Get the score to "Phantom Of The Opera." Flip through it. There are timing changes in several of the songs.

I don't have the score available to me, at the moment. I'm at work.

Yes, popular music is a LOT more flexible. You can add notes, take away notes, change the note from a quarter to two eighths, or to two sixteenths and an eight, or to a different note for each of those. You can skip a note completely or hold a note for an entire extra measure and you can of course completely improvise around the melody.

However, through all that, the timing needs to be correct and match the listener's expectations.

Nowadays, classical is pretty much playing the notes that are on the sheet.

That's right Frank. I actually have that score and it does have time changes through out!

Time changes:

Think of Me: 2/4 & 4/4
The Music of The Night 4/4 & 2/4
All I As of You 4/4 & 2/4

Yanni's "Swept Away" goes from 6/4 to 4/4. Can't we just say he added two beats to a couple of measures and called it 6/4? What's the difference? Or..can he do like Weber and separate the measure in half and use a 4/4 2/4 back to 4/4?


So you see, you can hum,sing, and dance to music with time changes.

This music stuff is sometimes hard to understand because I want it to be black and white, but it all seems so gray...

whats it called?...I'll check it out

I knew that the notes were more constrained in classical, but I hadn't quite realized in what sense. Thanks for the info .

If I may ask one more question... All of the examples you gave me were in terms of modifying the melody - Not the basic rhythmic structure. You also said that timing is very important. I guess I was more wondering about Piano Gal's statements with respect to pausing to think about notes and how this would be indistinguishable from a ritard. Is this sort of thing easier to pull of in popular music as well?

Pardon my density!

Oh, I think any music is flexible. Lately, we had a party and I had a professional pianist come play for us. He played Moonlight Sonata with embelishments, runs, etc., that are not on any written score and it sounded incredible. I mean it brought all my guest to tears.

If you want to play what the composer has written, there's nothing wrong with that. Just copy their work, but...if you want to play your own music, make it your own with your own sound, whatever that is, just make it musical.

Who says we have to play by the rules? We enforce the rules on ourselves which is okay, but remember...rules are made to be broken especially in music where everything is a variable.

There are lots of examplees of unusual timing in pop music - both unusual signatures as well as shifts in timing.....

A few examples -

"Mission Impossible" - Lalo Schifrin (5/4)
"Take 5" Dave Brubeck(5/4 - obviously)
"Salsbury Hill" - Peter Gabriel (7/8)
"Money" - Pink Floyd (7/4)

To paraphrase Peter Schickele (PDQ Bach) - "to dance to one of these songs, you'd have to have one leg shorter than the other..."

A couple with interesting shifts -

"Does anybody really know what time it is?" - Chicago - Starts out as 5/4, 2 measures of 3/4, then a 6/8 shuffle.

The Beatles did several of these:

"Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" - Beatles - verses are in 3/4, but the chorus is in 4/4.

"All You Need is Love" - verses are in 7/4, with the chorus in 4/4.


I also think "Strawberry Fields Forever" jumps around a bit, too....

"All I ask of you" has several time changes. When he goes from 4/4-2/4-3/4-4/4, he's using it like a turnaround or a break between verses. When he uses 4/4-2/4-4/4, he's using it to remove a beat and speed up the entrance of the next down beat and accelerate the climactic ending of the phrase.

I challenge you to tap your foot while listening to this song.

When you're playing Misty, folks are going to hum along and tap their foot. Changing the timing for a measure is going to lose them.

However, that's just my view. Feel free to play it however you like.

Pausing to "look for" or remember a note or notes is not the same thing at all as adding a ritard, tempo change or other interpretive aspect to a piece of music. There is a lot of room for moving things around and playing with the tempo and other markings in any type of music, BUT that is not the same as not being able to count and hold to tempo. And it IS noticable to the ear. There is a big difference in listening to music that has multiple tempo changes played correctly and a piece that perhaps has none, but the person playing does not have full control of the tempo and it changes because of that.

As for some of the music that has been mentioned, I have (attempted to) play Music of the Night and that change into 2/4, for just one or two measures, is NOT easy to get right. I still cannot quite manage it and it is obvious listening to it. Another example would be Memory from Cats- that one just begs to ebb and flow throughout, but you still have to keep it in tempo or it will just not sound right. But played perfectly strictly, it is sterile and dead sounding. Interpretation is one thing; sloppy tempo is quite another.

And, Bob, I have to disagree with your statement that :
Nowadays, classical is pretty much playing the notes that are on the sheet[/b]

I have several favorite pieces for which I own several different recordings, and each one is different, sometimes rather subtly, yes, but there are differences. There is a lot of room for interpretive playing, even in classical music.

No. I don't think so. Unless you're very lucky and the pause is at just the right spot, it's very easy to tell when the performer paused accidentally. Just listen to a couple of my recital pieces for examples.

Or mine.....

I agree. But that doesn't seem to be how it's taught. If anything, variation in dynamics and tempo may be taught, but don't you dare intentionally add or remove notes.

yes that is all the wonderful stuff that makes my hairs stick up on the back of my neck too. I would imagine though that if he was that good to bring you to tears his timing would be impeccable amidst all the fancy stuff

Bob..wheres that link to Mikes "This old man"?

Our teacher took a very simple song "This old man" and messed with it, I am sure this is the sort of stuff you were referring to that you would like to be able to do. But through it all mike has a terrfific sense of rhythm which makes it all sound rather marvelous

regards


Lee

I think I just need how to compose my own music and then I can play it however I want!

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening

Lee said, : "But through it all mike has a terrfific sense of rhythm which makes it all sound rather marvelous "

I totally agree.

Hopefully one day, I can do some of that.

I agree with markb. I feel that solo piano, standards, pop piano, gosple, jazz and others can be played a little out of time.

It is not uncommon to keep lets say 4 beats to a measure but throw the timing around within those four beats as long as you start on the next measure in time.

This is very common in new age style and minimalist style. These two styles will actually stretch a measure beyond the time sig a little.

Play it as you wish as long as you do not destroy it.

Sure you can do it, Rock! Hit four notes with your right hand. Any four notes. You can hear that they want to "go" somewhere. Follow them. Put your chords to the longer/bigger tones.

Alternatively, come up with a chord progression. For example, Am, G, F, Emaj7. (Bassline to "Stray Cat Strut," and "Hit The Road, Jack," and about fifty-gazillion other songs. Then, start with your right thumb on A, and just go with it until you have a melody that sounds cool.

Try I-vi-IV-V7 ("Heart & Soul" progression) C, Am, F (or Dm), G7. Start out on any white note but F, and play your heart and soul out! LOL

Composition is easy and fun, and as you get better at it, you can polish it up, make more complex melodies, and voila! You're on your way!

I worked up a ragtime-y sort of thing from "stealing" the first four notes from the melody to "Frosty The Snowman," and fooling with the rhythm a little. You can do ANYTHING if you just let your hands go and open your heart and ear.

Love that!

Hi pyscho

yes exactly but, what we are saying is that to do that it is good (and helps) to be aware of the timing in the first place

Something I have been struggling to get past for over a year!! (I am now finally starting to see why it is so important)


regards


Lee

Credit to psychopianoman for that quote, not me.

I think we're getting confused between tempo, rhythm and time signatures.

Rhythm is the basic pulse or controlled movement of the music. It's usually noted by the time signature, which will tell you how many beats (subdivisions) to include in each measure.

Tempo just tells you how quickly those beats are played.

Ritards, accelerandos, rubato, etc., are temporary changes to the tempo of a piece. The emphasis is on temporary. The overall rhythm or pulse of a section of music really shouldn't change.

It's quite possible to change the time signature or tempo within a piece--and makes it interesting. But these are usually at the composer's discretion. Even a jazz rendition of an "old favorite" must have consistent, predictable rhythm or it just sounds like a jumbled mess.

In my opinion, most piano players (and I'm definitely including myself here) are challenged in the rhythm department. It's because most of us play solo. It doesn't really matter how sloppy we are with our rhythm, because we don't have other musicians playing with us, and we typically don't play music for people to dance to.

The biggest, swamping everything else challenge for me when I started accompanying was to achieve a steady, consistent rhythm. In my experience, most other group-based musicians (like string players, woodwinds, and of course drummers) can run circles around we pianists when it comes to steady consistent rhythm, sight-reading rhythmically complicated measures in time, and things like that.

There must be standard definitions of the things we're talking about. To me, though, the time signature is just that--beats per measure and how beats are noted. Rhythm describes the pulse pattern as written--for example, quarter note, half note, two eighth notes in a 4/4 measure.

As a former drummer, rhythm also implies to me the pulse that Nina mentioned, or the feel of the pulse--for example, Latin, swing, rock, funk. Very slight alterations to what's written, or placing accents on different beats, creates different rhythm styles. For example, in 4/4, accenting beats 2 and 4 (a backbeat) is a common rock beat, while accenting beats 1 and 3 can add a reggae feel.

A while back, in a thread that was asking about the appropriateness of pedaling when playing Bach, I got so annoyed with the musical close mindedness that was being exhibited in the answers, that I did something just to rile things up a little. I posted a version of a Bach Prelude I recorded playing it in "Romantic" era style, with lots of rubato and intonation changes, as well as pedaling. It was lots of fun to do, but, man, you should have seen the ruckus I caused by doing that!!!!

Dude, that'll get your posting rights in the Pianist Corner revoked in a flash.

Fortuantely, we're more lenient in ABF.

Nina and Mark,
Having also played the drums since I was a kid, I find that my drumming style, especially when playing jazz/rock fusion (ala Chick Corea, Mahavishhnu Orchestra, etc.), or progressive rock pieces (YES, Emerson Lake and Palmer, etc.), tends to be quite different than many of the "basic" drummers I've come across. Often, in the above forms of music, the drums can, quite literally, become one of the lead instruments, as the syncopation and fills interplay with the keyboards, guitars, & horns, and the bass lays down the fundemental rhythm pattern. Drummers like Dave Weckl, Billy Cobham and Lenny White are terrific examples of this.

Mark,
Yeah, I think I shook them up real good in the Pianist Corner with that one. I heard they called the same guys that were looking for Salman Rushdie to come after me!!!

Absolutely, and I definitely include myself in that group. I really hate/love it when my husband picks up his bass and tries (emphasis on tries- and it's MY fault, not his!) to play with me! It forces me to be correct with the tempo, even if I am playing something I have added some of my own interpretive stuff to. I still have to maintain the basic rhythm, or at least make logical and consistent changes, or else there is just no way we can stay together. It's a challenge, that's for sure.

Agreed. And I'd add Neil Peart/Rush to that list.

Not many people can say that there was a Pianist Corner fatwah issued against them. Nor would many people *want* to say that.

For sure!!!! They are a tough bunch!!

I agree regarding Neil, as well!!!

Hmmm, piano fatwahs. A most excellent idea.

I hereby issue a fatwah on "Lang Lang bites" posts!

I think one distinction between musical changes in timing/rhythm/tempo, and "bad" timing is whether its intentional. I think how this thread started out pointed to the fact its important to have a good sense of timing and rhythm so that one can intentionally vary them based on the musical context and taste.

An analogy would be with someone who writes a non-idomatic sentence in English. For most people fluent in English, its easy enough to tell whether the non-idiomatic sentence is intentional and used as a linguistic device, or written unintentionally because of a poor grasp of the language. Most of the time, its easy enough to tell whether the changes in tempo and rhythm are intentionally done by a capable player, or are simply due to insufficient technique or sense of rhythm.

Excellent points and analogy, Last mile.

More on timing...Think of a couple dancing to your improv of Misty...popular music ...My teacher ,improv, told me if you vary the timing in popular music ... if... a couple is dancing you will really throw them off and upset them too...When people dance the timing must be perfect...Sounds as though you are doing great on your improv of popular music though ... your arranging.
Someone correct me if I am wrong here please...
The rule of thumb...For dancing strict timing by the pianist...For singing... follow the singer or singer's... play along behind them... to capture their style, phrasing...Classical , in most classical piano music ...I was taught to be strict in following what the composer wanted...Do not do my own thing in classical...To improv classical is an academic mistake...Sandy B. Input anyone? I only know what my piano teacher's taught me...I try to keep an open mind and would love input...

19366 Said: "To improv classical is an academic mistake".

I cannot disagree more. It's just a matter of opinion how the music should sound. That's it just opinion! It's as if people think that classical scores are sacred and to not play them exactly how they are written, is sacreligious. That is nonsense! How do we really know how composers like Bach/Beethoven played their music? What came first, the written music or the played music?

and 193866 said "I only know what my piano teacher's taught me".

Now that's sad...

Perhaps, but from what I've seen, that's what MOST classical teachers teach.

Play Fur Elise in swing time and most classical teachers would say, "that's nice, now play it correctly".

I do the same thing with ragtime, Bob. I get real lazy and floppy with the rhythm, but I find that really really relaxing is what helps me get my hands to start really feeling the groove. After I get that, then I go back and straighten it up. (Plus, it's fun to just do my own variations of stuff...) How palatable it would be to someone else listening, I don't know. Playing "Amazing Grace" in boogie-woogie really got my teacher's attention, though!

Piano Gal...Thank you so very much for your input and I asked this very same question to my piano teacher..."How do we know how the composer would want this composition played? There were no recordings,etc...exactly as you asked... He said to me, "We have lineage from the Master's..." He gave me this example ...The student of the student of the protege of Chopin concept...on and on...Sandy B

Frank said, :":Playing "Amazing Grace" in boogie-woogie really got my teacher's attention, though!"

Now that's funny

Hey Frank I've always liked your signature line. I actually sent it to a couple of people via e-mail and shared it in person, but no one seems to find the humor in it except for me. Everytime I see a post from you I giggle!

Um, it was me that said that Frank, Piano Gal.

I dont' know Sandra. Look at the bible. How many interpretations does it have? Look at rumors and gossip, the story changes everytime someone repeats it.

I don't think I buy into what your teacher said. I think the answer is no one really knows, and this is just the best guess. That's it a guess someone in that big ole office of composing decided this is what it should sound like and wrote it down. That's what MY teacher said. It's not written in stone and how do we know who wrote it any way and how many times has it been changed? My guess is plenty, and 100 years from now, who knows what it'll sound like through the years of interpretation...

Hum...people teach what the've been taught. The wise person learns from everyone and takes no one's word for it! JMHO!

I'm with you Piano Gal......those folks that adhere to the strictest interpretation of classical music are violating their own tenet everytime they play Bach on a modern day piano.....such an instrument did not even exist in Bach's time......he wrote primarily for harpsichord and organ. Therefore, he never intended that his music be played the way Glen Gould, or ANY modern day master plays it!!!!!

Another great analogy to this, that I've often thought of, is our Constitution. The words were very precisely written out over two hundred years ago to convey how the founding fathers wanted this country to operate, yet there are always debates about things like the right to carry a weapon, etc.....so much so that we need the Supreme Court to decipher it.....and every few decades even THEY change their interpretations!!!! In other words, EVERYTHING is subject to interpretation, even great music, and as long as no one is paying to hear me play it a certain predertermined way, I am free to enjoy and interpret it any way that pleases me.

Heretics, the lot of you.

Right on CC2

Mark some of us lead and some follow...what do you do; follow a lead?

I agree--an excellent analogy! And a similar analogy would be free verse. In the hands of the right poet, free verse is sublime: e.e. cummings, or T.S. Eliot, for example. But when free verse is merely someone's drunken ramblings, it makes you wince.

Monica it only makes you wince if you're not drunking too! Ooops, I mean drinking. I think I had too many glasses of wine tonight! Hope you could understand my rambling.

I do... just don't start posting any poetry.

Let's see: Roses are Red, Violets are Green, I wished some of these people wouldn't be so mean!

Okay, okay...I'll stick to what I know...but wait..I need to think about what that might me.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[wanders off to look for wine. Better yet, Sam Adams.]

I was just kidding about that, although it was four pages ago, I should let it go. No matter what it is, don't ever take me seriously, besides I don't know what I'm talking about.

Now you tell us!

I always let the woman lead.

Mark, you are a chivalrous gentleman, Sir.

You're right, Frank, if by "chivalrous" you mean "lazy."

Shhhhhh.... Don't give away ALL of our secrets, man!

Kidding or not, accidental or not, this has been one of the most interesting and substantive threads I've read in a long time, and it's made me do some serious thinking about my own timing issues and what I want to do with my music. So I'm glad you asked that question.

I'm glad the questions was asked as well. I need to focus much more on my timing, but it's so hard to do when you're just learning the notes. My teacher says, "notes, fingers,timing" in that order. I think it makes sense that if we don't know the notes and our finger changes each time we play, then we'll never get the timing right because we really don't know the song.

This stuff is hard :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by icekid767:

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Originally posted by icekid767:
What is timing?
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I was just kidding about that, although it was four pages ago, I should let it go. No matter what it is, don't ever take me seriously, besides I don't know what I'm talking about.
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I sure hope the rules have not changed to require I know what I'm talking about......

Scarey thought, Icekid - not a concept I am familiar with at all..... The great thing about opinions is they do not have to make sense or be logical or require knowledge, just pick one and IT IS........just my opinion......

Monica Kern I agree with Monica, this thread has been very interesting to follow. I've also enjoyed following the thread about playing too fast , and the how good is it possible to get when you started playing piano as an adult thread , and the thread about playing pieces that are too difficult for us adult beginners , and the thread about the Number 1 (one) .

Very interesting topics here lately!

I just had a second lesson for the new term. I played a piece that I've being working on since....um....March!!! nearly 6 months. Grant it, it's a fairly advanced piece (according to my teacher anyway) but after 6 months and now that I know the notes and can make the jumps accurately (well most of the time) we are STARTING to work on polishing the timing. Part of me is wondering if we should have waited. I'll enjoy continuing with this piece - digging in more thoroughly - but I can't help but wonder if we should have tackled the timing problems sooner. I'm sure (I think) that this piece has taught me many technical things...fast runs, huge leaps, staccato/legato, phrasing and voicing, and the list goes on. I guess breaking it down now - after nearly 6 months will only serve to teach me more?..... I think I'm answering my own questions....

Sandy, congratulations. It sounds like you're making terrific progress. Sometimes, I'll go to a piece and put tic-marks above the notes in the measure that have the strong beats if I have a scale run or a bunch of eighth, sixteenth, or thirty-second notes that are giving me fits. Good luck to you! Applaud your progress, and the old axiom: "Turn your scars into STARS!" Happy piano!

I have to agree that this has been a good thread. I'll be honest, I have an idea about timing, but it's one of the things on sheet music that I do NOT know how to interpret properly. I get my timing from listening to other artists. Staccato/Legato, phrasing and voicing...I must learn all that, because I have no idea except staccato. This thread has taught me a few things, but has reminded me that I must sign up with a teacher. Thanks for all the good insight.