Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Right Way/Wrong ay to play the Piano??

i could say i was a self taught painter/artist, even tho i have done a few workshops, but no college or atelier courses. But this would not be true.
Joining the art forums 5 years ago & having other artists critique my work, point me to books & DVD's, tell me all about mediums & brushes & teqniques .... no, not self taught.

i think piano is more difficult to learn tho.
i am really struggling. I think i need a hands on teacher this time around.
For one thing, a teacher will give me something to live up to - set out my practice & pace me correctly. See where i am struggling & why & have me make corrections.

i am too old now to learn classical & expect to be good at it, but i believe there are teachers out there who would not insist on strict classical training. yes?

Humai, I wouldn't agree with you. There are teachers out there who may like to shape your lessons to suit the style you wish to play. I had lessons in the past that were 'blues' orientated. However, at 48years old I am looking around at the moment for a new teacher to resume lessons in September and it will be classical. I use ABRSM and Trinity exam booklets to practice every day. I don't think you are ever too old for piano.

i dunno. They say it takes 10 years at least to play classical well. - and i must say that even tho i love classical music, my heart lies in The Blues & Roots & Rock. I find it easier to play because it is how i express myself. It is FUN.

I think i love excellent classical too much to butcher it in the process.

Tricia, you can use classical teaching as a foundation for any playing style. I love popular, punk, ragtime and blues but as my old teacher said 'to do the job right you've got to have a good set of tools!'

Despite this I thank you DN for the excellent advice regrding posture and technique that you posted on the first page. I need to work on both.

And therein lies the danger of a wrong interpretation of sitting "tall", or worse, sitting "up".

It is still self-taught by definition (I'm saying this in a positive way) Self-taught doesn't mean that you only teach yourself what yourself know. After all everything you know comes from someone else or something else. It is not you finding the starts in the sky at night. It's the stars showing thelmeselves to you just like a book or DVD's would.

Self-taught is about the structure not about the sources. Self-taught means that you choose how to learn rather than having to follow a standard path someone else has chosen. Having someone showing you things within your own structure and learning path, is still self-teaching.

You can also say that when you take formal lessons, taking responsibility for your own learning as though self-taught, by actualizing what you are taught rather than seeing yourself as an empty vessel and recipient is an additional way of seeing this --- or?

Ragtime Clown, I've recently been looking through CPE Bach's essay (on the true art of playing keyboard instruments). The first chapter is on fingering. Often in reading old books (translated no less), we've got to look a little harder at the words to figure out the intended meaning. They used language a little differently...

So I believe that CPEBach had a broader meaning with 'fingering' than we do, he takes it for granted that so long as we know the most effective fingering that our bodies will get there effectively (no back pains, tension, etc). So with that in place, he goes on to describe different fingering situations, using mostly different scales.

Here's where we got to differences in right/wrong:

I was taught to use one fingering for each scale, I believe this is to create consistency in playing the scales, possibly a result of standardized testing where they say "play me e melodic minor".

CPE Bach gives multiple fingerings for many scales, some have only one reasonable possibility and others have 3, encouraging us to practice and be familiar with all. The idea is to have more options available in fingering passages, to be more adaptable. (CPE Bach played for a prince and had to be able to handle any situation on the fly, so it's understandable why he'd have this more adaptable approach)

Many of his alternate fingerings I found just as comfortable or slightly better than the ones I learned.

Another glaring difference in his method is his use of passing 2 over 1, and 3 over 4. For example,

RH descending C major: 4,3,2,1,2,1,2,1... ascending: 1,2,3,4,3,4,3,4...

Any teacher nowadays would call this ridiculous. I found the 2,1 pass fairly comfortable and the 3,4 pass tricky but not painful. Further, he discourages passing 4 over 5, but I find that a manageable fingering to use on occasion. Perhaps I have a longer ring finger than CPE Bach did?

Why does he encourage these unusual (to us) fingerings? I think it's because CPE, like his father JS, wrote a lot of part writing. So if the thumb or pinky is holding down a note while the hand still has to play a run, it's totally legitimate to pass an unusual finger like that.

So who's right and wrong? Do I want to be more like CPE Bach or my teacher? Do I even have the patience to learn multiple fingerings anyways?

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Why, you really care or think I care about keybordklutz comment? He can only post short one-line meaningless remarks and offer no argument whatsoever. Having keyboardklutz post that doesn't mean being ridiculed in my dictionary. But I will let him believe that he really offered a valid argument against mine and that he is really funny as he wishes to be.

We can't forget that the instruments of Bach or even Mozart were completely different from the instruments we play today. We may call them pianoforte but through the years they have changed so profoundly that we might as well find a different name and consider them different instrument altogether. It's possible that some of the technique that was required for the instruments of the past are not as beneficial nowadays.

Well done 1RC for reading CPE. It is a treasure trove. Chopin also often uses a longer finger over a shorter one.

Danny & Keystring.

points taken. thank you both.

Actually, didn't they call them 'fortepianos' back then?

Yeah, so far as I've heard their instruments were generally lighter action. But we're dealing with keyboards all the same, and I think the only golden rule that everyone can agree on is to try things for ourselves and keep what works. Following that, I've found some useful things in this antique techinique.

Thanks, but so far I've only covered a chunk of the first chapter. What I like best is how CPE views music. Not dry at all, everything is to serve affect. I'm eager to cover thoroughbass, although I've heard a lot of people imply it's obsolete, I would like to know how the sons of Bach learned to view harmony.

Figured bass was on the curriculum when I went to college. It's a useful way to think about music. John Mehegan used it as the basis of his Jazz tutors.

Instead of talking about whether or not people should get lessons, why don't we just start posting what we have learned from our teachings right here and now? Just imagin how much better the legends of the past would have been if they simply had access to a computer? we got the technology, lets run this ****!.

It can only be done to a small degree. We learn through the guided physical and mental actions, progressively, and what we "know" resides someplace between body and mind. A lot of it is difficult to transmit as an intellectual body of knowledge, and it can also be misinterpreted. Some of the things we learn are close to conflicting, yet are all true in a yin yang kind of way.

If what you say is true, then wouldn't finding a teacher be counter productive? as the teacher can only teach you in a way that works with his body/anatomy/mind?

Were all very very different in the way our minds work, which in turn changes the way our body works. For example

person B's hands are the exactly identical to person A's hands, yet they use them differently, and so on and so fourth.

Can you honestly say that there is any true teacher out there that is qualified for the job?

Do you think, that if a person has deep inner knowledge of him/her self, and has had experience with several instruments, skills, and generally has a very high IQ that they can learn piano on there own, granted they learn theory while learning the instrument?

Kahraireeah, I'm not sure how to answer that because your picture of what might happen with such a teacher is not what I'm thinking of. I don't know how to explain it differently. I'm a student and I know what I've experienced but it doesn't transmit easily into words. The types of tasks I have been given are not so direct; you do end up using your own body and your own brain, but toward the desired results and knowledge. This is not the shallower kind of teaching where a teacher says "Here's what worked for me - now you try it too." but with a deeper knowledge of how these things come about.

One can learn an instrument on their own. After all, I played the piano without instruction as a child. But it can be a different experience.