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#1045462 - 09/03/06 02:28 AM Mozart d minor fantasy question
AdagioM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 723
Loc: Oregon
I admit that my rhythm reading skills are lacking. :bow, scrape:

Anyway, why are there so many notes in measure 34 (and others like it)? They don't add up! Am I just supposed to play them all without knowing how they count out?


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#1045463 - 09/03/06 02:52 AM Re: Mozart d minor fantasy question
gabytu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 1522
Loc: Portland, Or.
That was one of the compositions I learned when I was lucky enough to have a good teacher. I was taught to play those sections Presto but evenly, without counting them out.

My copy is the Kalmus Urtext, so I assume that the Presto is Mozart's indication of the speed.

There are three runs on that order, and the third one is marked "rallent," and I was taught to slow down as one neared the end of that run.

Interesting that you are working on it, as it is one that I have decided to resurect after having had it lie domant for quite a number of years.

#1045464 - 09/03/06 03:32 AM Re: Mozart d minor fantasy question
Wombat66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 262
Loc: Cornwall UK
I'm also working on this and noticed the same thing (ie the absence of bar markings etc)in the presto runs. I'm sure you've also noticed that at thefirst and second runs the tempo changes from slow (adagio) in the previous passage to very quick (presto)for the run and then immediately back again to slow.
You couldn't possibly count it out because it's entirely up to you how quickly to count, I suppose a bit like trying to count out a glissando. I think the presto runs are more of a dramatic flourish, and it is the drama that counts not the rhythmic accuracy of the statement.
I just play them as fast as my fingers will let me without tripping up.
The third run is a little more tricky but I get the impression that the rhythm is also quite elastic since, in my score, there are 2 pause marks in it and immediately afterwards the score is marked "a tempo".

#1045465 - 09/03/06 11:59 AM Re: Mozart d minor fantasy question
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
it's not that difficult if you break down the run passage (presto). so, don't let many notes fool you. it's in very organized pattern sequence, and you can use the same fingering for each pattern. so the point is to break down patterns first and then find the best fingering for each division. actually all 3 runs have the same idea. once you got each segment down, it's very easy to play the whole run fast, as it's composition of all small patterns.

#1045466 - 09/03/06 03:23 PM Re: Mozart d minor fantasy question
AdagioM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 723
Loc: Oregon
I see that the notes all "make sense" and don't have a problem with that. It was just the absence of bar lines and all those notes in one measure!

I've just started this piece, and part of starting a piece for me is looking far patterns, analyzing the harmonic structure, and counting out the rhythms. That measure blew up my routine!

Gaby, I'm in Portland, too. Do you take lessons? I'm not taking lessons right now, but will probably go back after I get home from Sonata piano camp later this month.


#1045467 - 09/03/06 04:37 PM Re: Mozart d minor fantasy question
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10429
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Indeed, those runs are outside of the piece in a sense. They are extended ornaments (or very short written out cadenzas!) that are transition elements.

When my son learned the piece, his teacher ....aw, heck, I'll just cut and paste what I said in another thread

About two years ago he made a real jump into the kind of literature that a pianist might keep forever. He learned Mozart's Fantasy in D minor. Many or most of you may know the piece, but for those who don't, it has three or four really wicked presto runs up (or down) most of the keyboard.

His teacher used a very effective device to get him to learn this piece thoroughly. She photocopied the piece and cut it up into chunks. The chunks were carefully selected. She wasn't just cutting it up into equally sized pieces. Each of these wicked runs was one chunk. The rest of the chunks were usually about two lines of music. They corresponded to a particular theme ...a set of phrases that made up a single musical idea.

She gave him one chunk at a time to learn. The bits she gave him were NOT sequential. He had no idea what the whole piece sounded like. I was under strict orders not to play the piece at home or to let him hear it or see it. [It's in my repertoire]

The first bit she gave him was one of those runs. He just took it apart as a set of notes. The first week was just slow going to firmly memorize a pattern. Once the pattern was memorized, he began to raise the tempo. It's amazing how quickly you can learn something seemingly impossible if the only part of a piece you play for the week is that one small chunk.
Grotrian 192 #156455


#1045468 - 09/03/06 05:19 PM Re: Mozart d minor fantasy question
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
those presto runs are in their own tempo, which have nothing to do with the rest. so, you can think of each run as a separated section in a different tempo, just like a cadenza in a free improvisary form.

#1045469 - 09/03/06 08:18 PM Re: Mozart d minor fantasy question
gabytu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 1522
Loc: Portland, Or.
Adagio. No, I am not taking any lessons now. Just working on my own. I had lessons many many years ago and am riding on that knowlege now.
I might resume lessons down the road, but right now I am busy regaining my skills, reworking old pieces, and learning some new ones.

How exciting for you to be going to a piano sonata camp. Be sure to tell us all about it when you get back. Gaby Tu


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