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I've started learning Mozart's K576 1st movement and have not had too much trouble learning the first 30 seconds but the sections I'm approaching which gives me the most exitement I feel will be the most demanding yet. I've been mentally preparing myself for this 'mission' by getting to grips with compound time signatures in particular 6/8 time and reading up on counterpoint. I assume this piece contains examples of counterpoint but I may be wrong. My dictionary definitions of counterpoint are simply:

1. Music. the art of combining melodies.
2. Music. the texture resulting from the combining of individual melodic lines.
3. a melody composed to be combined with another melody.
4. Also called counterpoint rhythm. Prosody. syncopation (def. 2).
5. any element that is juxtaposed and contrasted with another.
–verb (used with object)
6. to emphasize or clarify by contrast or juxtaposition.

These seem quite straight forward but the Wikipedia entry goes in to great detail about criteria that needs to be fulfilled before counterpoint is achieved which is beyond me.

My query is what basic example of counterpoint is there? Is it present in K545 or K576? Is a long time player yet untrained and ungraded person like myself foolish to attempt a grade 8 piece? After playing K545 in to the ground I feel up to the task but know it will be a hard slog and my hands will be playing more independantly than ever. My understanding is that independant playing is the basis of counterpoint. What are the nuts and bolts of counterpoint?

Kind Regards,

Jamie

Hello Jamie,

Interserting thread, I'm very much interestd in conterpoint.


Again I feel very limited by my apprximate english to speak freely about the subject.

Basically, the conterpoint is "the juxtaposition of melodic lines" but it has a lot of other rules, these rules vary a lot from a period to another and are principally about consonance, non-harmonic relation and melodic lines motion...These rules are very numerous but you can have a good approach in the wiki article.

As for the Mozart sonatas, the K545 sonata is almost the exact OPPOsite of a contrapuntal writing by its heavy use of a bass (alberti bass in this case for the left hand, 1-2-3-2-1...you see ?)

Hi Jamie,

You might get a lot more information by posting this in the Pianists Corner or the Teacher's Forum. Be sure to "knock" if you post in the later. JK

I'm not an expert, but here is what I know. When I think of counterpoint, I tend to think of Bach. For examples, I'd probably start looking at the Inventions, Sinfonias (aka Three Part Inventions) and the Fugues from the Well Tempered Clavier.

After searching online, I came across the following page, which has more information on counterpoint than I feel ready to start digging into:

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory33.htm

Which contains the table of contents to this page:

http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk.C/0.html

(hmmmmm. Lot's of good information on this site. I think I need to go through his pages.)

Hope this helps.
Rich

I have no formal training in music theory, but from reading and self study, I see counterpoint as separate melodies that when played together form the chords of the song. Just like in a hymn book; soprano, alto, tenor, and bass each have their own melodies and when sang together form the same chords that you would use if strumming along with a guitar.

I got a small porthole view of what counterpoint is about when I was invited to the composer's lounge to participate in an exercise called "Fux Species 1". I got the impression from this, that the best way to understand counterpoint might be to work on counterpoint in theory.

My very limited understanding of counterpoint is that essentially you have two melodies, but that are related to each other, which are happening at the same time, and this is the horizontal movement. At the same time the melodies will be different intervals apart (example top line may go AB, bottom line goes FF, so the first two notes are FA which are a third apart, the next two notes are FB which are a fourth apart).

My Oxford concludes by saying "..the percetion of the horizontal and vertical relationship simultaneously is the perception of counterpoint."

The exercise in the composer's lounge made that clear to me, and you can even see different people's attempts in various stages. I don't know if this could help at all when playing a piece.

Just a thought here -

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Barbershop Quartets, but to me this is a contemporary example of a counterpuntal type of music.

Rich

Jamie147 - here are some very basic guidelines for counterpoint or countermelody:

Countermelody can be set up as a "harmony line" where it essentially parallels the main melody at a given interval (say a 3rd below) and more or less duplicates the rhythmic pattern of the main melody.

Countermelody can also be used in a "call-and response" approach where the countermelody "answers" the main melody, basically following the pattern of the main melody and serving to fill in gaps in that main melody.

Countermelody can be completely independent of the main melody - not paralleling it at a set interval, nor following it's rhythmic patterns, nor "answering" it, but weaving in and around with a logic and design of it's own.

All three of the above techniques for countermelodies can be combined in one composition.

The countermelody should not "clash" (be dissonant) with the main melody (except rarely and by specific ddesign).

The notes in the countermelody should be at least an interval of a 3rd distant from the main melody.

The countermelody should not cross the main melody (except rarely and by specific design).

The countermelody should be strong or good enough to stand on it's own, but still never (or seldom) overwhelm the main melody. This is a tough one.

There's alot more to it than this, but this should give yoy something to work with for starters.

Regards, JF

Am I right that countermelody and counterpoint are not the same thing, but may share some similarities (more than one melody)? For example, I think that parallels going along a given interval is something that is forbidden in counterpoint except for rare occasions. Are you saying, Frank, that working with countermelody is a good way to start, before venturing into counterpoint?

Keystring - my understanding is that Countermelody and Counterpoint are essentially the same thing, and I use the terms interchangeably. When one arranges in counterpoint one is fundamentally creating a melody line that run concurrently with but "counter" to the main melody. In three and four part counterpoint you will have multiple melodies running counter to the main melody.

While you are completely correct that one of the basic rules of counterpoint is to aviod overusing parallel intervals, when one uses a countermelody to provide essentially a "harmony line" (as opposed to a separate, unique "countermelody" line) then one of the easiest ways to do this is to hold a constant (or fairly constant) interval of, say, a 3rd or a 6th for extended sections of the piece (although you may want to vary the interval from section to section). So, here it's basically serving a dual function - countermelody and simple harmony. The duplication of the rhythmic pattern between the main and countermelodies also adds to the overall effect of this.

Regards, JF

Let me check up on that for my own understanding as well.

A somewhat comprehensive overview of the Theory of counterpoint would be to do a study of Fux.

As keystrings mentioned...

Fux: species 1, and up through species 5.

There are many specific rules for movement in both the vertical(intervals) and horizontal(timewise) directions. There are progressively more freedoms allowed as the species increases, but lessons are clearer in the earlier species.

Some brief observations:

I would distinguish between "counterpoint" and a "countermelody" - counterpoint is combining two or more melodic lines; the countermelody to be strictly accurate is one of those lines. So, you write a melody. You add a countermelody, and voila! You have counterpoint .

Back to the OP's question on counterpoint in Mozart K576 - the challenging passage in this first movement is the section 5 bars or so into the development (ie after the repeat sign), and here the main theme is treated contrapuntally - both hands play it, but offset (like singing a round in two parts). K545, on the other hand, is more melody with chordal (or broken chord) accompaniment.

By the way, Jamie, I think your avatar is cute

in 3, 4 and however many parts you will still typically have only the subject and counter subject not one melody each line. In opera it sometimes makes sense and it's clever to have multiple characters singing at the same time with different tunes.

Re: parallels - 5ths and 8ths are out because the lines merge and become one, so your texture disappears. 3rds and 6ths are fine. 4ths just sound weird.

When the statement was made that counterpoint and countermelody are the same thing, and that the terms can be used interchangeably, I begged the question because if a basic concept is misdefined, it leads to subsequent confusion. The OP is trying to learn about counterpoint for the first time and definitions are important. Actually, since I'm at the beginning of my knowledge, I don't want to get confused either.

My "Harvard Concise" has a separate definition for counterpoint and countermelody.

"Countermelody: In a piece whose texture consists clearly of a melody with accompaniment, an accompanying part with distinct, though subordinate, melodic interest."

In other words there is a second melody that is subordinate to the first, and in John Frank's description it often simply follows along a few notes below so that it will sound harmonious. This is not the nature of counterpoint.

The definition of counterpoint has already been mentioned further up. The actual definition runs two pages and 5 columns in the dictionary.

The main idea in counterpoint is that you may have two or more distinct melodies which are related along themes, but you also have things happening along the intervals of the various voices. The movement along the intervals is a component of the music and it probably affects us aesthetically even if we don't understand it. You're listening to two things. I don't think it can be counterpoint without that element. And, if I understand correctly, there is no subordinate voice - all voices are equal. I invite correction if I have misunderstood anything.

Hi Keystring - please note that currawong makes a nice distinction between countermelody and counterpoint - a distinction that is often taken for granted or overlooked when the two terms are frequently used interchangeably. that is, counterpoint is the general "concept" or process or practice while countermelody is the means of realizing of affecting that process. As stated: you write a melody, add a countermelody(ies), and thus have created counterpoint. This accurate distinction doesn't change the fact the the two terms are commonly used interchageably.

When I illustrated the use of a countermelody in my first example (among several) to create a basic "harmony line" to a main melody (following the rhythmic pattern of the main melody at a more or less constant interval) it was to show one fundamental use of an elementary form of counterpoint - the added countermelody in this one case is, as I said, serving a dual function - adding harmony to the main melody and supplying the piece with a 2nd melody (a countermelody) - this 2nd role of the countermelody (acting as a 2nd melody line) exists and is real and functional no matter how much it parallels the main melody and no matter how much harmony it provides. In general, counterpoint countermelodies provide harmony to the main melody at many points (otherwise they would be constantly dissonant). My simple example was just one easy way (among many) to do this.

But we are in real danger now of hijacking this thread to Jamie147's possible chagrin

Regards, JF

Hi KS,

I think you've missed the point. If I understand it correctly, "Counter-melody" isn't some sort of rival style, it's a way of describing an essential element of Counterpoint, which is that it has one or more counter-melodies running alongside the main melody. They aren't two different things - one is part of the other, and they both refer to the same thing, which is another way of looking at polyphony - or the art of making several noises at once, and getting away with it.

Chris

EDIT: OOPS! beaten to the post.

.

I think I got the point, and I don't know if the point is correct. That is what I want to have clarified. The point is that counterpoint has a main melody and subordinate countering melodies. My sense is that this is not true, and will lead to a misunderstanding of the essential nature of counterpoint.

I would like an expert who has studied this in sufficient depth to clarify because I think it's important.

Namely, is there countermelody in counterpoint? Can the two terms be used synonymously?

If there isn't a countermelody (a 2nd melody, at least) in counterpoint then I don't know what else there would be in counterpoint. It's the whole idea, point and purpose.

Regards (and with apologies to Jamie for the rude hijacking - hope you're finding at least some of this interesting and/or informative and/or amusing , JF

John Frank, I have no idea of your expertise, or what you have studied. I know that **I** have no expertise. At this moment I am confused, because up to now I have understood that countermelody and counterpoint are distinct, and that there is no subordinate melody in counterpoint. I have also understood that you would not have continual parallel motion. You have proposed both things as elements of counterpoint. At this point, your explanation has confused me since it runs contrary to what I have understood so far.

I did not know that you have done formal studies in music, and I have no way of knowing who is an expert in this forum, and who is not. My apologies for seeming to call your knowledge into question. That was not my intention.