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John Frank, there were certain elements in your initial definition that caused me confusion, because if they were true, it meant my basic understanding of what counterpoint is about was false. It was not about having separate melodies. Rather, I understood that counterpoint has independent melodic lines, and that the movement along intervals was an essential part. I understood you to be saying that there was main and subordinate melodies, and that interval movement was not a part of it (since you proposed the possibilty of parallel lines).

I needed to have this part clarified (independence etc.) because my basic first understanding was at risk. That has now been clarified.

If "countermelody" is to mean that there are separate melodies, as opposed to music that moves along chord progressions with only one melody, then I am comfortable with that.

I was looking for clarification on that one point, because it seemed an essential one.

OK, it's clear from the viewpoint of Information theory (Shannon's entropy and "mutual information"). That's the basis of data compressors (ZIP etc.)

Counterpoint is considered when the two melodic lines are less than independent (unpredictable from one another, new information like they were random) but more unpredictability than just a simple rule (e.g. follow by diatonic 3rds below).

Some very interesting views which I have read with great interest and which has increased my desire to learn more about it. I know a key signature can change during a piece but can both hands playing at different time signatures even momentarilly be considered counterpoint or is it just the differences in sound or lack of sound assuming rests play a part that define it? Are pieces that shift time signature between the hands common or unheard of? K576 has caused some old hand ailmets to surface again which throws a spanner in the works. I've not overdone it so it must be all the 8th notes. I broke my right wrist years ago which didn't heal properly and have a chipped knuckle bone on the same hand which is causing all the pain. Usually I can ignore it and it passes but not this time. I've not played since Friday and the pain has subsided. I used to crack my knuckles all the time too which I bitterly regret. Playing Knuckles in Bugsy Malone didn't help!

I've been thinking for a while a physio session might be of benefit but now its essential.

Betty, I'm surprised by your responses because you make it clear Counterpoint is not something for a beginner and I agree with you although I consider myself to be a beginner but I embrace many academic subjects including areas that are beyond my expertise. Its just one method of learning and the only method in the absence of a teacher. What you say makes perfect sense but I feel only in the context of a young beginner student with little or no music theory knowledge and with many years of tuition ahead of them. The older I get the more 'urgent' reading up on areas of interest becomes. If a teacher said to me at my age "your not ready for that" I would question why and it would become a priority to understand in my own time. This should not cause conflict between student and teacher because how can anyone know too much? If anything it should show commitment and enthusiasm. Its just a shame instead of voicing your concerns you didn't put the same effort in to sharing your thoughts on the mechanics of Counterpoint as I know they will be enlightening and useful for anyone who reads them. Even young beginners!

Jamie,

I'm of the opinion that counterpoint comes to us from the best of the masters and is so very complex that no one should go it alone, but have capable instruction and listening ears from a person who has mastered counterpoint.

It's like unraveling a ball of yarn that the cat has tangled - physically and mentally. You don't want to begin this without having a set of skills in place that have prepared you for it. It's better to prevent the ball of yarn from getting tangled in the first place.

At least that's my rule about approaching counterpoint.

On the opposite end, the steady beats with hands together of a beginner, let's say child, they so much want to know and do it correctly, take a lot of work.

My students are all ears at entry point - a good habit to have - they listen to what I say and they make corrections if they need to. They pursue progress.

Their independance at the piano comes because they earned it.

I am concerned about laying out answers for adult students here in the forum - I'm finding my work of creating teaching materials (Piano Power)to be not used and understood in the way they are formatted. Again, I am thinking, two heads are better than one - one who knows the material forward and back and the person seeking the information.

It's not good enough to "understand" it you must be able to use it and work it with the brain and the hand hand in correct response to the demand.

Dedicated supervised study will get you there, all else may be dabbling. And, forbid, it could be placed erroneously into your playing mechanism - forever and a day.

Could you PM me and tell me about your music background and your pieces? I will comment personally to you. Your words commitment and enthusiasm are what interests me.

And about voicing my concerns, that's one of my responsibilities as a teacher too. Just as I help pave the way to understanding and good habits in music, I let someone know when they are "off" and "what to do about it".

Piano teaching works best when a teacher has a live student on the bench who 1) wants to be there, 2) listens to instuction, 3) prepares for the next lesson well, 4) and who trusts you and works agreeably with you building a relationship.

Betty

I'm the kind of ageless kid who wonders at all sort of patterns and understanding WHY, WHAT, HOW ? both in a scientific and 'feel' sense.

But my ability to DO music in real time, with my fingers' control is limited (relatively to those aspirations of understanding), and slow/hard work to improve.

Please, Mrs. Betty, would you recommend for someone like me too against trying to ever understand Counterpoint ? I sort of 'get' all sort of glimpses by listening to Bach etc. and also some good rock, metal etc. but still eager to fill the theoretical foundations to make understanding solid.

If nothing else, I may shift from the basic attempt at classical musicianship to computer-aided 'sequencing' and other forms of off-line arangement, where patterns matter just as much, and accuracy at tempo is less critical. And of course I would like to understand counterpoint for that...

ROMagister:

I'm reading from your profile -
Occupation: teaching economics, book editing
Interests: history, ecology, systems analysis

You've convinced me that you can handle anything! Your occupation and interest describe a learn-ed mind with science, math and systems of discernment.

I still think a very rewarding way to learn it is to do it though the study of piano and composers and to rise to that level of your own physical and mental connections that you have put into place. Man's brain is the original computer.

Remember that the computer out put is only as good as the data entry and the programming. "Garbage In - Garbage Out".

You seem like a capable mind that can do anything he wants. It all just takes time.

Betty

I am glad to see you inviting students to give you a background of their music studies. This is very necessary for getting the real picture before advising. This avoids confusion for all concerned and needless stress for a student. Postings on the Internet alone can be incomplete or misleading in that respect.

A teacher's voice can have a powerful impact on a student: it carries authority and expertise. I would hate to carry that responsibility, and admire your courage for speaking out when you believe you see the need. So many don't bother.

Jamie, I understand Betty's caution, and I feel comfortable with what she has set out. I especially would not want to study counterpoint initially like an academic subject.

A misunderstanding has occurred in regards to what was addressed to me, because I have never seen fit to describe my background. Thus it was assumed that I am a self-teaching beginner dabbling in advanced theory trying to learn through this thread and academic books. This may have some bearing in discussing what to do when. As a student I claim no expertise, and can only share my experiences and personal decisions.

I have been shaped musically by one teacher for TEN YEARS. Most of that time consisted of practical guided musical experiences and only relatively recently have we moved into formal theory. That theory always has a musical link. I have been distraught to see this beautiful teaching described as "stuff and regurgitate". Perhaps I am at fault for never making my background clear.

Even at this point, personally, I would not want to read about counterpoint, studying it as one would an academic subject. I sought and found a dictionary definition that would summarize what I understood from my practical experience, and this is what I quoted.

Having returned to piano after a 30 year absence, I have only been able to play simple music of that nature: a Pachelbel fughetta with only two voices, which my teacher had me develop very much in the manner described by John Brook in the "Bach 2 hands" thread. As a singer, the idea of two voices trading off in the telling of a story came naturally, almost like being a puppeteer conducting a conversation through my hands.

However, I have have also sung in a semi-professional choir, sharing this music with my teacher to deepen my understanding. When you sing this music, you are one of the voices that a piano would play otherwise. You listen for your cue, as it were, hearing the subject being carried from voice to voice to voice so that you know when to come in, and how. THEN when you go to theory, it holds meaning. I have found musical experience to be invaluable. However, I also found that to sing contrapunctal music I needed to understand it at an elementary level. (Which I think Betty is saying.) Many of the singers around seemed to memorize everything from a CD; I could not work like that. For me the music must hold meaning.
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On the side of pure theory, several people have suggested the exercises called Fux Species Counterpoint. I took part in one exercise and found that the process gave me an understanding that reading about it abstractly would not have. This was after a solid grounding in theory. It may be interesting to get an inside view of how people worked, how their concepts changed. Mine gets corrected four times - the process of correction and feedback is in itself important. It has been up to my teacher whether I continue with this since he has the picture of where I am at, as well as what this is about.

The exercise consists of being given a bottom melody called the cantus, and building a melody above it following a host of rules about intervals, and ending up with something that follows the rules while being musical and a separate, independent melody that ends correctly.

Any example that meets approval should probably sound like counterpoint if you play it.

Fux Species 1 attempts

These exercises help in composition, but I don't know how much of a role they have for learning to play counterpoint music.