What I have to say here is limited to Liszt's Transcendental Etudes.

Fascinating that you posit that Chopin is more complex... I find almost every single piece of Chopin's with which I am familiar I can hum and in many cases play almost verbatim in my head. In fact, the only exception that comes to mind is precisely the one you mentioned: 10/2 - and even that paints a wonderful picture - perhaps a rabbit roaming around a dark forest. Liszt's music similarly paints brilliant imagery.

I can hum the theme that comes and goes, usually in the bass registers, in TE #10 "Appassionata", but it is otherwise so complex otherwise that, while quite an enjoyable listen, its themes are not readily pigeonholed into an easily-defineable melody by my ear.

Now, is that a product simply of my having more exposure to Chopin's music esp. at an early age than that of Liszt? (This excepts Lizst's extremely popular works like Liebestraum, HR2, of course, which virtually everyone has heard; my phone plays Liebestraum). Or are perhaps the Liszt TEs a bad example of lyricism? Is that, perhaps, what makes then "Transcendental"? After all, the HR's do have distinct melodies... I tried to compare apples to apples, etudes to etudes in this case.

FWIW my appreciation of Chopin is genuine and heartfelt. No snobbery here. I would like to acquire an analogous appreciation for Franz Liszt.

Gerg:

Wow, we definitely have very different understanding of TEs! For me the melodic part of TEs is extremely simple, almost bordering on trivial. It is an ornametation of the themes and harmonization that is extremely complex. A great example is my favorite, #12, where the theme is a very lovely, but trivial Db-C-Bb-A-Bb-Eb with responce Gb-F-Ab-Db-C-Bb. The harmonization and the fill of tremolos is, however, incredibly intricate. My 6-year old hums the opening melodic line from #8 whenever she is about to do something wild (great for me as a signal that something nasty is about to happen :-) ), so I take it it is pretty simpe too - easy enough for 6-year old to grasp.

Now, I am only saying that melodic lines of Liszt are simpler, the ornamentation and harmonization is pretty complex; and the pianistic skill required to play some TEs is obviously significantly greater that that required for almost any Chopin.

Could it be that your recording of #10 is just not very good? I find melodic lines kind of easy to follow. But I have among others, a rendition by Ovchinnikov, which is absolutely outstanding (I think he is the best interpreter of TEs currently alive). I can make an mp3 for you if you'd like that.

BTW, that comment about snobbery was meant as a harmless joke as indicated by (Rolling On The Floor Laughing) at the end. My appreciation of Chopin is also quite genuine, and just as you were, I was more exposed to Chopin music as a child. Still, I have heard more than one classical music lover mention something to the effect of Liszt being a piano basher :-), while Chopin never gets anything but praise.

The more Liszt I've listened to (Lisztened to? ) the more I've come to appreciate and love his music. I think Chopin's music grabs people more easily and may be more accessible given its gorgeous lyricism and grace (speaking generally -- there are also pieces that are hair raising, powerful, shattering). I absolutely adore almost all of Chopin's work.
I also think that given Liszt's long life and huge output of music, there is more variability. But what depth of emotional communication and incredible range the man had-- symphonic poems, the huge piano literature he generated, masses, concertos, etc. Often people hear some of the more popularized pieces that have become cliches (Liebestraume, HR) and write him off on that basis, not having listened to a broader range of his works that show what a genius the man was.

Sophia

After re-reading Watson's biography of Liszt a while back I've become interested in Liszt as a performer. I've just received Walker's three volume biography (I've got lots of reading time on my hands lately) and am looking forward to reading first hand accounts of "Liszt the Showman".

Something I'm curious about is how much his reputation as a showman was influenced by the performance practice and sensibilities of the time. For example, he was the first to not use sheet music during a recital and many considered this "arrogant and showy". Also, in a review of a concert he gave in London, a reviewer criticized him for breaking strings (easy to do on the pianos of the day) saying "this was a carelessness for which any 12 year old piano student would be taken to task".

To use an analogy, I recall a long time ago when Michael Jackson was touring promoting his "Thriller" album and came to our town. Naturally, he did his now-ubiquitous "crotch grab" which was dutifully caricatured in the local paper along with a review (by the elderly music critic) that would make one think he spent the entire performance with his hand on his crotch. I asked someone who was there about it and he said he'd done it once or twice at most. The point being that it was new and shocking at the time so much was made about it but someone reading that review 100 years from now would surely come away with a false impression.

As a result, I wonder if the cartoons of pianos breaking and dust flying under Liszt's hands and him staring up into the heavens don't have more than a little exaggeration in them influenced by the sensibilities of the day.

I wonder how his showmanship would be perceived today relative to say Lang Lang or some of the other more "expressive" artists?

Hi Greg,
You have a treat in store for you in embarking on the three volumes of Watson on Liszt. It's an impressive work of scholarship and great writing-- reads like a novel.
You make some great points although the idea of comparing Liszt playing to Jackson's crotch grabbing is uh, not one I might have come up with myself. But he certainly "broke the mold" when it came to the performance practice of the time. Accounts of his playing from other musicians talk about the emotional communicative power of his playing.
Have fun !
Sophia

Just throwing this out there, but I do recall reading somewhere, not quite sure where, that one critic compared Liszt's antics of playing to an epileptic seizure at the piano.

That sounds *just* like Lang Lang...

Apparently we've got some very listless devotees.

I came to this thread rather late and just tried to click on the IMSLP sheet music link in the initial post. IMSLP seems to be gone? That's a real shame, it was a wonderful resource.

Which Liszt score do you need? I have plenty...

Hi all!

My wife and I have been away to Phoenix, Az on vacation for a week. It sure is great to see that playadom has pumped some life back into the thread. I see that Greg, C7 Player, is taking on the three volume set on Lizt by Watson.

I haven't had the time to read all the posts since playadom's resurrection of the thread, but I will.

Just a note to say hello and wish you all well.

Lisztener

Well, it looks like we've all missed it but here's a belated "Happy Birthday" to Franz Liszt (10/22/1811).

wow, yes! Here's a toast to one of the greatest on so many levels: trail blazing composer, virtuoso performer, teacher, humanitarian, supporter of the arts...
an incredible human being and musician for the ages.

Happy Birthday, Franz!

Sophia

I second your toast, Sophia.

I'll add to the birthday wishes.

Happy birthday Franz Liszt! Thank you for making pianism what it is, for making F. Chopin known to the world, and for your own voluminous and excellent contributions!

Boldog szuletesnapot, Ferenc!

Happy birthday!

I believe the opus ten etudes of Chopin were dedicated to the birthday boy. In fact... I think i read somewhere that Liszt sightread 10/1 (the etude i'm learning) at full tempo the first time he looked at it.

Hi Debussy,
yes, Chopin did dedicate the Op 10 etudes to Liszt, who was by eyewitness accounts a phenomenal sight reader.


So in honor of Liszt's birthday how about

Top Twenty (or more) Reasons to Love Liszt:


1. The first true "rock star" of classical piano

2. those chromatic harmonies!

3. The Andante of the b minor sonata...

next?


Sophia

4. His generous spirit. He tirelessly promoted the music of others and gave numerous recitals to benefit memorials to Beethoven and to help musicians who'd fallen on hard times.

5. His record as a teacher. He never charged for a lesson and although many claimed to be "Liszt students" who were far below his standards, he also had a number of important pianists as his students.

6. His enormous energy. In Watson's biography he details the schedule from one of Liszt's tours and it's truly astounding. He covered Europe from one end to the other and gave hundreds of performances and this was back when traveling was traveling[/b] with no roads, going by coach, etc.

7. His musical impact. Although many of his transcriptions were later decried as being "vulgar", they were in fact the only way that many people could hear operas or orchestral works and did much to popularize the work of Wagner, Berlioz and others.

next?

8. Without him, there would be no public recitals or the thought f memorization (i believe before that it was considered respectful to use a composers score while playing it).

9. His sightreading skills were unbelieveable! [Look 2 posts up]

10. His sense of humor! Liszt is reputed to have clapped wildly after a bad performance by an ill-prepped student after having made faces to the rest of the students in the group during the performance. The student would smugly take it in then face the guffaws of the others. (Not real funny for the performer, but for the rest, hilarious!)

11. His contribution to the technical aspects of pianism.

12. His influence in the shaping of the future direction of classical music.

Oh, so nobody wanted to do #13? I'll pitch in:

13. His music. Really, from wild energies of Mazeppa to deep poeticism of Chasse-Neige, from complex texture of B minor sonata to transparent brilliance of Liebestraume #3, from the explosive optimism of Valse di bravura to deep sorrowness of Pensée des morts, his music always finds its way to the inner hearts of true music lovers.

14. What he did to the music of great composers that came before him: his transcriptions of Schubert song , Beethoven's symphonies, Paganini caprices, etc.

15. Consolation #3

16. His larger than life spirit and charisma

17. As a young man, he was incredibly handsome!

18. He gave up a fabulously successful career as a touring virtuoso performer to devote himself to composing and teaching.

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19. He created a LisztAddict

20. Alkan!

I'm a big fan of Liszt followed closely by F. Chopin. On the first page a few posters mentioned Evegny Kissin (sorry if i got it wrong) performing La Campanella.

Here's another youtube video of Liszt's 'La Campanella' performed by Yundi Li.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEnfZjqMSy0

I feel that his interpretation is better than Kissin's (don't hurt me! ) simply because it doesn't sound as rushed i suppose. Anybody would like to refute/support this claim?

Cheers

P.S: Gotta love this Liszt thread! Thanks for bringing up my favourite composer

For those who are wondering who Yundi Li is (this is for the fans of Chopin) he was the youngest child ever to win the International Chopin Competition held at Warsaw(?) every year!

nUtChAi,

I am quite taken by Yundi Li to the extent that he is my next favorite concert pianist behind Evgeny Kissin. I own two DVDs of Yundi Li; the first, his 2000 win of the Chopin competition, 2nd, Yundi Li Live in Concert. To compare with these I have the Kissin DVD, "The Gift of Music".

I listened to his performance from your link to YouTube and must admit his performance is breathtaking and trying to choose a favorite performance between the two is too difficult for me to attempt. It's like trying to compare two like diamonds of equal weight and brilliance cut by two different jewelers. For this performance I concede to equality but no more. Each is great. I hate to equivocate because I admire both performers immensely. My vote for the greatest living concert pianist still goes to Evgeny Kissin.

Congratulations on joining the forums! You will find much stimulating conversation about both of the romantic titans here and elsewhere. Enjoy your journey and welcome to the best forum on the Internet. If interested, feel free to contribute a performance in the upcoming (November) ABF piano recital. As the time draws near you will see a post from Monica K. on how to enter. It's great fun and you'll hear much beautiful music from all levels of play.

Enjoy,

Regards,

Lisztener

Thanks Lisztener

I would consider joining in the performance but I'm all the way in Australia

Maybe I could've played Liebestraum Nr.3...

Will there be a video recording of the performances?

And this forum is great They've made me feel very welcomed.

nutchai