Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum DOMINANT PREPARATION -- Now where did I put that darned whip again? (III)

Bob - I was looking at your post above to see if I came up with the same combination on the first one and noticed you have 17/16ths. How did that happen

Cathy

I was hoping Matt would give me "extra credit", cathys.

Kathy I agree with you (except for a couple of to "to 7 or not to 7" ) everywhere except for :

Example 3, (auld lang whatever) Measure 2, Beat 2&, which I see as a d7, which would be vi7 rather than vii7. I figure good chance it was a typo.

As far as Normal and Retrogressive.
1 Hark: normal all the way

2 God Save the Queen: M2 Beats 1,2,3 goes V vi V I so that little part is retrograde, I think.
same song, [ M3 B4] , [ M4 B1,2,3 ] goes ii7 iii ii I so that part is retrograde too, I think,
(just the ii7 iii part, I guess to be more precise.) (just trying to avoid more Pretorian epithets)

3 AuldLangWhaterer: M2 B1,2,3,4 goes V7, vi7, V iii, V7 (to I ) so V7 - v7i and V - iii are retrograde


4. Good King WenshelWhatever M3 b1,2,3,4 goes IV iii ii7 V7 (to I) so IV - iii and iii-ii are retrograde.

Okay I see that one; the typo excuse sounds as good as any. I think I need some clarification on the normal vs retrograde. If everything is going along normal but all of a sudden we get a chord out of sequence before a "reset" does that make it retrograde?

Cathy
P.S. I knew those songs sounded vaguely familiar.

BY cathys:
-------
If everything is going along normal but all of a sudden we get a chord out of sequence before a "reset" does that make it retrograde?
-------


I think thats how I understand it, cathys, except that a leap "out of sequence to the RIGHT" would still be Normal, while a leap "to the LEFT" would be Regrograde.


The sequence order given as

III - VI - II - V - I - IV

with vii as a "possible" "farthest out" member, ie.
( VII ) III - VI - II - V - I - IV
and IV occupying a spot almost equivalent to VI ie.

( VII) -III - (VI IV) - II - V - I

is what we're working with.

For NORMAL progression, you work left to right, never "backtracking" to the left.

i.e. if you play a VI chord you would continue to right, say VI, II, I ... or VI, V, I ... but NOT VI, III...(which is to the left of VI, or "farther away" from the root)..., VI, II, I.
Well, you CAN jump to the left, but that IS the definition of retrograde. (I think.)

I may be exaggerating or misjudging a bit, but retrograde progressions seem to have a kind of "minor" or "unsettled" sounding quality about them. Not out of place, but a bit different and noticeable.

There may be "cautions of (size) scale" involved here too, as these passages are pretty short, and longer ones with several phrases might show better retrograde examples.

I'm not sure how retrogrades work with key or tonal center changes, but I'm sure they are linked fairly closely. The last two chords in AuldLangSang, for instance, while being I, IV in F are V, I in Bb. I really hate this song, or I'd go look it up to see if the next phrase is centered around Bb instead of F. (sorry, I just must have heard too much of Guy Limburger's 34" vibrato on this song ) :rolleyes:

I guess it takes a while to carve those little wooden answers to those not so little wooden exercises. (Tapping my big wooden shod toe. :p )

I guess next week's lesson will now be late. Now that Matt understands that his little example ditties are expected to catch on like wildfire and make the Top Forty by the end of the week. We have a right to expect them to have made Safeway's Muzak in not more than a fortnight. If little old church ladies aren't humming them while window shopping we just aren't getting what we paid for. :p

I have a question concerning chord terminology that might fit in here. I'm going to hammer it in anyway, so objections are pointless.

I know Matt called in sick a couple of days ago, so I don't expect an instant answer, unless its "Why don't you just GO TO BED already?"

Is there a term for 2-tone chords, or chords that are missing one of the main triad notes (1,3 or 5)
I've heard "power chord" used when just the root and the 5th is played, and I'm not sure how "power" became the chosen word, but that's not the aspect of the question I'm interested in right now.

For the situation I'm thinking of, the word "open" or "ambiguous" or "transfer" might work better.

I've got a piece (Sheep may safely graze, Bach) that's been in Bb Major for 20 measures (except for a brief 4 measure foray into F quite a ways back. The piece is heading for Cminor and gets there by going from Bb Major to Gminor for 4 measures and then hitting Cminor for several more measures (8 or 10 or 12)after that.

Measure 20's chords are:
EbM7, Bb, F7, g, F7,F or
4M7, 1,57, 6m, 57,5, (in key of Bb)

Measure 21 FIRST chord contains 3 Bb's and 1 D, while the next chord adds a G so it has Bb, D, D, G

So the second chord is a Gminor triad, while the first chord could be Bb Major triad if an F was added, or a Gminor triad if a G had been added.

My point is that it is a kind of swing chord ... it is almost the Bb that the last 2 F chords in Measure 20 would normally fall too and its almost the Gminor triad that the next 4 measures are rooted on.
Seems like there might be a tidy little name for this thing... "modulating ambiguosichord " or something. (hopefully something other than THAT.)

A similar thing happens 2 measures later as the tonal center shifts from Gminor to Cminor.

The chords up to then are
g?Bb? (the chord mentioned above) g,D7,g, |bar| Ahalfdim, D , g, and then 2 more ambiguous chords, dX and G7X

(so far its been
i(?) , i , V7 , i , |bar| ii halfdim , V , i , dX , G7X ) (in Gminor.)

The last two chords in the measure contain the following notes.

(beat 4) F G D A and (beat 4&) F G D G
The first would be some form of a Dminor chord, and the second some form of a G(Major or Minor)7th chord, but the Bb or B which would declare it as a major or minor is missing.


(the next chord is a Cminor triad which sets the tone for the next several measures)
so the progression to the first Cminor chord, (as expressed in Cminor) would be ii . (V7 or v7), i

I see the point of leaving the determining note out of the chord ... it makes the transition a bit less abrupt ... but I'm just wondering if there is an accepted or common terminology for the technique or the chords used.


I can clean the cat hair off my flatbed and scan and post this part of the score it its not clear enough above.
(Cats: can't live with em :b: , can't live with em. :b: )

Bob-- what do you think of the Bach? Which arrangement did you get?

When you answer my question, I'll write back and tell you that I don't know the answer to your question!

Nina

I like it. I first heard it on David Duval's "Reflections from the Keyboard" radio program, where someone played "Blithe Bells", which is Percy Graingers arrangement of this piece.

Egon Petri's arrangement, mentioned on PW early this June and serendipitously and surreptitiously forwarded to me by the illustrious Ms. Tunes of Tweksbury Mass, who also went to the considerable trouble of sheathing each page in one of those clear plastic page protectors. ) was one of Victor Borge's piano teachers.

Bob
(Sorry for the delay in aswering your post. I got busy and js now got bach to it. )

OK, sorry for the delay. I'm almost well now, so I managed to put the answer's to last week's lesson together. (I think THIS week's lesson will become NEXT week's.) Now, with the sharpened chisel , let's look at the answers. (Numbers in parentheses indicate inversion, | = bar line.)

#1 (Hark the Herald Angels Sing)
A: I I(6) vi(6) V(6/4) | I vi I(6/4) V | I(6) V(4/2) I(6) ii(6) | I(6/4) V7 I

This is all pretty straightforward, with no retrograde motion. We'll call it normal (and boring, too!).

#2 (God Save the [gender-neutral monarch])
Eb: I vi ii(6) | V vi V(6) | I I(6) ii | iii ii(6) I(6) | ii I(6/4) V7 | I

This one's less obvious, but it DOES have a retrograde motion when the ii at the end of m. 3 goes to iii in m. 4. Any guesses for a perhaps better choice there?

#3 (Auld Lang Syne)
F: V | I vii(6) I(6) I | V7 vi7 V(6) V(4/2) | I(6) I I I(6) | IV

This one is normal, with nothing out of the ordinary, unless you got surprised in the second full measure going from V7 to vi7. This is considered a deceptive resolution (remember deceptive cadences?), but not retrograde. How'd you like the half cadence on IV? That's pretty rare, but, as you can see, it still works.

#4 (Good King Wenceslaus)
G: I vi ii7 V | I(6) I V(6) | IV iii ii7 V7 | I(6) I

An interesting harmonization, don't you think? Did it sound a bit off, though? Notice that m. 2 ends on V (half cadence), but the first chord in m. 3 is IV. This might be acceptable, depending on context, but here it just sounds weird. But m. 3 also has the IV going to iii (oops, that's retrograde, now isn't it), which makes for an even weirder sound.

So, how did you do?

Sorry to learn you were sick, Matt. I'd have nursed you myself if I'd only known.

Thank you for your help in guiding the adult students to better understand theory. Your dusty, wooden examples are just great. Actually, Good King Wenceslaus rocks!

p.s. - I stole your whip. You can stop looking for it now.

For want of a better term, I would call them "ambiguous" in most contexts. Generally, it is the third above the root of a triad that is the determining tone in whether the triad is major or minor. An open 5th with no intervening 3rd is ambiguous. It could be used in a number of places where one wanted to keep the harmony ambiguous, but for the most part that would have been considered a non-standard usage.

As for calling them "power chords," this is a terminology (and technique) originally used by guitar players, who wanted to make their part in an ensemble more prominent. By using only the root and fifth of the chord, they get more volume (and strangely enough, even on the piano, you'll get overtones that suggest a major chord).
OK, don't get too worked up over this particular one. A fairly common voicing for a chord could just be the root and the third (recall what I just said about it being the determinant interval), often with the root tripled. In fact, this is such a common resolution for a dominant (well, looky there, that's what precedes it!) that it is given special consideration.

Ah, yes, well, isn't g minor the relative minor to Bb Major? Actually, even if one were to ignore the triple-root idea presented just above, the resolution from the dominant to the submediant is very commonly referred to as a deceptive resolution (see what I wrote above about this), which also underscores the whole Major/relative minor relationship.

Here's a handy hint for deciphering weird chords: rearrange them so you can stack them in thirds (all lines or all spaces). When dealing with extended harmonies, it is common to leave many of the notes out of the stack. So your first chord (FGDA) stacks D F A (C) (Eb) G, an 11th chord. 11th chords are usually just suspensions, though. Check the harmony just prior: is there a G that appears to be held over?

The second (FDGD) stacks G (Bb) D F; a 7th chord. Wait, no third??? OK, let's see what follows: a c minor chord. Hmm, sounds like a secondary dominant (or if you're going to c minor, then the dominant in c minor). Why no third? Sometimes voice leading can lead you into a strange spelling for a chord. It happens.

Actually no, this is not really any particular technique. A composer will make lots of decisions on voicing harmonies in deference to voice leading (making the inner voices smoother with mostly stepwise motion) or playability, especially for keyboard instruments. In this particular case, it was apparently felt acceptable that the third be omitted in favor of, most likely, one or the other of the above.

As an extra-added aid in understanding some of the concepts I've presented in this lesson, I'd like you to take a look at this cool little gadget that Frank B. is making available at his pianosupplies.com site: the Circle of Fifths Clock ! Even if you don't buy one, print a copy of the clock face; it's a much better visual than I can possibly render here by typing.

I thought it would be some type of bondage device, after reading the leader in 'Today's Active Topics'.

Seriously, I am looking forward to personally understanding what we are talking about. I AM studying but I am afraid I suffer from Fifth's Disorder.

I bought one of those Circle-of-Fifths clocks for my oldest son when he first went off to college, but I screwed up the order and got the one with a digital readout by mistake. (You have to be really good at theory to read THAT puppy!

Thanks for the feedback on my questions, Matt. I'll have to look more closely at the score when I get home to check for that held-over G.