Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Counting out loud - anyone?

Okay now that I have everyone chatting at the piano dictating which notes to be played next, does anyone count out loud?

I admit that I do. I verbalize the rhythm, tap it, walk it, walk and tap it if I can, etc. until I can feel it. This process isn't necessary all the time, but there are cases where the brain says the music goes one way, and the fingers think it goes another.

So out comes the pencil, metronome at the slowest pace possible, and me stomping, tapping and even clapping to get it right.

Another thing that helps too is verbalizing the complicated passages. Huh? As I hear whispers amongst the members here.

Simple... Make up words or syllables that fit the particular measure, or passage. This will help internalize the feeling and pulse that the notes indicate.

Anyway something else thay may or may not be helpful.

John

Funny you should post this. I was doing exactly that while working on one of my lesson pieces this morning. It's not a particularly complex rhythm (4/4 time, dotted quarters against eighths), but I was losing a half beat somewhere in one measure. I actually had to write the measure out in all eighth notes to figure it out, but I got it. And then I went back to the bench, slowed way down and started counting it out loud to make sure I got it right. It's not perfect yet, but it's better and I think being able to count aloud helps me get it ingrained in my poor old brain. I will also, sometimes, sing the counts, especially if it is a melody I am familiar with. I think that helps put the music as well as the counts in my head.

Oh man, I just cannot do that. Everytime I try I find myself saying my finger number and not the beat. And if I concentrate hard enough to count the beat I get hopelessly messed up. I find it easier just to use the metronome until I have the rhythm down and then rely on memory.

...but I envy all of you who can count while playing.

p.s. I can't sing or talk while playing well, either.

Are you kidding? I'm lucky just to be able to determine what notes I'm suppose to be playing (I swear they are getting smaller and smaller every day, or I am getting blinder than a bat). Besides, I can't play anything that I haven't heard. In other words, my timing is TERRIBLE. I play strictly by ear, as far as timing goes.

Kathleen

I am a lot like that, Kathleen. It is far easier for me to play something if I know how it is supposed to sound. I will often go and look up even a short clip of something new, just to get a basic feel. But I still find myself counting at times, as a reinforcement.

Huh, funny how stuff like this works. I'm the exact opposite of what you describe above. Due to lots of timing issues when i started up with my current teacher i started counting out loud a lot of the time while playing. Now I actually catch myself counting without even realizing that I'm doing it. I must say though that it's helped tremendouly with my timing/rhythm.

The metronome on the other hand, gah, I find it impossible to use. Completely kills my playing. I really really need to get used to practicing with it more.

I cant count. I kind of do the math in my head as I play. And timing is one of my problems...

I find that if I am going to count out loud, I have to say something on each half beat. 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and or 1 e & a, 2 e @ a and so forth. I don't understand just being able to count 1,2,3,4 and fitting the notes correctly in between.

I use the metronome every day when I'm learning a piece, but I definitely slack off once I'm at the polishing stage, and I should probably continue to check the rhythm by it.

Nancy

My teacher tells me that is exactly what I should do: break the counting to the smallest value in the piece. So if in 4/4 and there are 8th notes, you would count it all as 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &. I doubt I could do a straight 4 and get it right, either. And forget trying that with dotted notes! lol

Now that I think about it... I don't really count. I watched a documentary on Glenn Gould about a year ago and have taken to humming along a little bit. I think sometimes all the timing issues can be solved by listening a little more.

Matt

Well, I count out loud absolutely all the time. I do it when I am learning something and then when I am trying to speed it up (for me this is a problem and when I go faster I get out of time)

And if I can't stomp clap or tap it, it's just not gonna be right on the keyboard. With big muscles (feet), then hands on the closed keyboard, then fingers not trying to reach the right keys.....

It is a process different than learning the notes. I'm not at a point where I can describe it yet, but I need to learn the notes and the pulse apart and then bring them together. I am told that as my note reading improves, these processes will come together.

In fact, just this month I taught my daughter to count out loud for her cello.

Perhaps some Chopin cello and piano music is in your future Dorrie?

I count out loud when learnind a piece ... my teacher insists on it. He feels timing is one of the most important skills in playing and has drilled it into me. When i am tired though, I count more to myself. I am horrible at counting 16th notes because I lose my breath. And I am horrendous at couting triplets.

Actually, Matt, I am looking for some easy duets for the summer. I'm afraid Chopin is a bit in the future.

My daughter just switched teachers to one who is a counting stickler. At the moment, my supervision of her practice is to point to the notes and count. It's a whole lot easier with a one-line instrument.

16ths can be a bit tough to count, but there's a solution. Do the counting when working on the piece slowly and subdivide the measure so that the 16th note become the 8th note, and quarter notes become half notes, etc. Once you can feel the rhythm, the music will flow evenly.

For triplets you need to think in 3-evenly spaced notes to a single beat. The best thing again is to work on the time slowly and ramp up the speed so that the time always stays even.

Hope this helps!

John

John

Fitting in the spaces with other syllables works too. I've made up words or phrases that fit the music and the time. This will also help internalize the music so you don't have to rely on the finger memory at the moment. The brain will be doing some of the work for the fingers instead of the other way around.


John
John

Not quite counting aloud, but I find myself counting under my breath during the grave sections of Beethoven's Pathetique (the piece I am currently working on). The rhythm is quite slow but complex - quarter tied to dotted 16th, 32nd, dotted 16th, 32nd, quarter, 8th, dotted 16th, 32nd - all in the first measure. The only way I can get the rhythm right is counting on the 16th notes...

Generally I find myself counting for long held notes or rests...

Yes. And then I'm singing the words in my head as I play the rhythms. Hopefully I've got the right notes, too, since I'm singing it.

When the rhythms are really tricky, I have to subdivide to the smallest note value, write it on the score, and then count out loud.

I don't count out loud. I count silently to myself. And, I only count 8th and 16th notes when I have to. For instance, I'll count 1 2 3 & 4; 1 & a 2 e & 3 4, etc.

I find that counting every increment actually throws me off. Also, counting out loud, as well as patting my feet throws me off. I can only attribute this to my rhythm training while playing the drums in school bands.

16ths can be a bit tough to count, but there's a solution. Do the counting when working on the piece slowly and subdivide the measure so that the 16th note become the 8th note, and quarter notes become half notes, etc. Once you can feel the rhythm, the music will flow evenly.

Hope this helps!

John

John [/QB][/QUOTE]


That is a good idea ... I am going to try this. Thank you for the advice.

I reserve the out loud counting for when the brain doesn't get what the music is doing. Most of the time, I do exactly what you do. This helps to keep the pulse steady.

My teacher had me subdivide this even smaller to keep the 32nd notes even steadier. The subdividing really works in places like this especially when the tempo is very slow and the mind begins to wander off from the task at hand.

John

That's a very good description of what's going on in my head...

I count out loud tap out the measures before I play. I try to remember all the great advise I received when I was taking lessons. So much stays with me, and this was one of those things that I thought was going to be a crutch, but turned out to be a valuable piece of advise. It helps me connect the rhythm with the music. Otherwise I get lost, and end up frustrated too much to continue.

I used to count or tap my foot to keep tempo. I'm now trying to avoid it if possible. I just start playing the pieces and figure it out along the way. It's pretty difficult with a new piece but manageable since I'm playing fairly simple pieces.

The responses to this thread have been interesting. Please keep them coming...

John

Ok buddy, I remember when studying music counting and beating out rhythms would make me break out in a sweat! Today I look at a piece and before I play take note of the time signature and hope to get it right. John, here is a question for you...In 3/4 time, when a turn is introduced in a measure, it requires you to use three pitches, one diatonic step apart. How do you count this out? For example: treble: d d (c)turn above c. That's one measure. It's Allegretto. What do you think? I usually also da, da the measure...da, da, (da,da,da,da,da,da)
(d),(d), (c) with turn
How do you count this out?

Best Regards,
Nick

It seems there has been a lot of good advice and ideas expressed already. When necessary, I use many of the above methods. One thing I have been taught and find very useful is to simplify music. This goes beyond playing hands separate. For instance, play one hand completely and play only the downbeat with the other. Do this until you can count, then add the other notes. Or, simply play the top melody note with the right hand while playing the left. If you have big chords based on octaves, play only the octave and then fill in the other notes when you can do the octaves comfortably. If you have voices in the left hand, play only the base note, while playing the right hand until you have that steady. If you have trouble tapping rhythms, play only the notes on the beat with one hand while tapping with the other. Once you start doing this, you will find creative ways to take the music apart. The important thing is to simplify it until you have blocks of information that your brain can process. This way you avoid some of the tedium of slowing yourself down and picking apart all the notes and rhythms at once. I find these methods to be very effective in learning more quickly. I have found that I learn the piece much better by asking myself to learn it in different ways. It may seem hard to play only the melody note in the right hand, for instance, but once you master it, the rest will be much easier.

Hi Nick,

Don't count the beats in the turn; just count the beats in the measure. Take for example your turn on the third beat. There are still 3 beats to the measure, and the turn is just played quickly and evenly on the third beat just like any other chord or single note would be played. Remember these are just ornaments that have been added by the composer to fancy up the melody.

There are a couple of things to try:

1) Play the melody without the turn until you get it straight (pun intended).

Once this is comfy...

2) Play it with the turn.

It helps if you sing the melody to yourself, and try to imitate what you hear.

Enjoying the new piano aye?

John

Thanks John!

I will try exactly what you advise. Are yo familiar with the Menuet by Paderewski? That's where this is from. He uses several ornaments in the piece which are slowly returning to me as I played the piece YEARS ago and had it memorized too! I'll e-mail you today.

Best Regards,
Nick

My wife and I are both taking lessons. I count aloud when I am learning a tricky passage because I was trained that way back in orchestra and band (1-and-a-2 or 1-y-and-y-two-y-and-y or trip-a-let trip-a-let or whatever).

My wife, on the other hand, struggles. Her biggest challenge is rhthym. She cannot count out loud and she used to get frustrated enough to cry. The she discovered she can sing in a rhthmic way to help her count. She sort of stutters the lyrics when there are lyrics to match the beat. That is, if a word of the lyric spreads over multiple beats, she breaks the words into enough syllables to match the number of beats (even if she has to stutter some of the syllables to make it fit). If there are no lrics she sort of hums the melody in the same stuttering way. Once she has the piece down she can play without stuttering. It sounds horrible but it works for her.

I would tap my hand on my thigh while humming the tune or playing with my right hand. If it's too complicated, I will start slow and gradually increase the tempo.

Once I have the melody (?) down and I start battling with the timing, I find myself "scat singing" the melody as I play - to keep the pace going.


Sort of like an internal metronome.


But once it all gets up a head of steam and starts rolling, the scat singing stops

Here's a Glen Gould video. Watch his mouth as he plays this Bach piece:


Glen Gould Talks Through Back

I play the piece through to get an idea what it sounds like, then I use a metronome to the 8th notes - that way I can hear a sound with each note.

Unfortunately, I am not able to count out loud, because my counting out loud is not in time. I may end of slowing down at some parts -- the metronome is more accurate.

ILM

Sometimes I count out loud. Rhythm is my pp. Today I discovered another way to help my rhythm. I am practicing a piece that requires a steady beat in the bass, while the note values in the melody are a little tricky. While playing this piece I had the feeling that I am not playing at a steady pace, so I started using my metronom. But my metronom, must not have been enough, because I then found myself swaying left and right on my piano bench in synch with the metronom. It must have been a sight. It worked really well though.

I never noticed this before but...

After posting the bit above to the Glenn Gould video, I pulled up his first recording of Goldberg Variations in iTunes and was working with that on.

At first I thought it was my dog whining at the music (he LOVES Bach!) but then when I listened more closely it was Gould humming and singing in time, in the background of the recording.


What a character he was!

Now I wonder if he did the same thing in his 80s remake. Hmmmm.....

John. Once again I am in your debt for bringing this business of counting to our attention. I decided to try it with some of the Chopin Mazurkas, which I thought I played fairly well.

Gosh, what an eye opener when I began to count dotted notes, etc. My rhythm was way off.
So back to relearning them---playing slowly and counting. 1 e and ah, 2 e and ah, or whatever is necessary for each measure.

I count groups of four 8th notes: One tah ta tah, two tah ta tah, etc. Triplets, are One la le, two la le, etc.
Gaby Tu

And just to throw another spanner into the works, my husband- who plays electric bass- just brought home a video by Jeff Berlin. For those who don't know, Jeff Berlin is considered a master of the electric bass- he is a superb soloist and a well-known teacher. He says that using a metronome will mess you up more quickly than almost anything else. His method is to count beats, yes, but to count "out of time" until you know the notes inside out. So instead of trying to learn something at a steady 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&, however slow, but always trying to keep it steady, you should not worry about doing 1-----&-2----&---3-&-4-&, or whatever it takes, as long as the notes happen on the correct beat. It's hard to explain without hearing it. His reasoning is that as long as you connect the right notes with the right beat, once you learn the notes dead on, it is easier to bring the tempo up. His claim is that this is the way to truly instill an inner sense of timing. If you watch the video, it makes some sense, but I'm not completely sold- yet.