I started Alouette yesterday - not bad, I can play it without mistakes, albeit a bit clumsily. So far, nothing has stumped me like "...Brown Eyes" did, and I still seem to have a mental block about that one sometimes. Yes, it's beginning to sound a little bit more like music now.

OT: I mentioned a few days back about my grandchildren playing a duet at their recital. Well, they did okay, although my granddaughter evidently turned around and glared at her brother a few times, indicating that either he made a mistake or was playing to slow for her. But at least they finished together and didn't get into an argument. Unfortunately, Dad forgot to charge the video camera, so I won't get to see the recital. Evidently most of the kids did a duet with a piano playing parent, and one kid played with her grandmother. My son mentioned that maybe next year..... I told him not to even think about it. :-)

mom3gram,

Take a look at "The 5 Browns". Maybe it will inspire your grandkids (and you! :-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQAJTL5ztBY

I jumped from page 27 to Entertainer and it was good decision. The reason is pretty simple: play music you love and you'll do fine. Next thing I am going to do is real Entertainer (you know that Alfred's is simplified 1/4 of real one) and then "Maple Leaf rag".
About teachers. I am sure that having a teacher is very important to keep their families well financially. 99% you can get from books.

It's interesting to know that Chuan Chang's technique of repeated playing of problem areas such as this has not worked out for you. It has worked for me, and from what I've read on this forum, a few others as well. Yes, perhaps a teacher would definitely be helpful at this point, but until then, perhaps more practice time may also help.

I'm sure when you are ready to, you will. You can also post and share your recordings via http://www.box.net, as many people here has done.

When I am "done" with Book One, I figure I will take some time, maybe a few weeks or a month or so, to go back through the second half of the book, and see if there was any improvement on the things I couldn't perfect. My instinct tells me to expect some improvement. [/b][/QUOTE]

As a true beginner, I constantly have this fear that once I can play a piece well and then stop for even a day or two, I would forget and have to start working slowly back from the beginning all over again, but amazingly I've been finding that the opposite to be true. I can still pick it up where I left off and start playing it again with minimal mistakes.

I would like to believe and hope that you would also find the same to be true for you when you do decide to go back and work on them again.

Good luck to you!

Key Notes

Thanks, and a for you as well.

Besides the Alfred's Book 1 songs, I am working on the Czerny Op. 599 exercises 11, 12 and 13, which I find fun and a decent challenge at this point in Alfred's Book 1, plus it gives me a bit of that "classical music" feel that I don't get playing the tunes in Alfred's.[/b][/QUOTE]

Hmm, this is very good to know, that you are able to play Czerny's pieces at this early stages of learning already. Unless you've had other musical instruments background, it makes me wonder if I could also since we are both at the same place in the book. I like the idea of being able to play more classically sounding music but thought that I would have to wait for quite a while, maybe six months to one year(?), to get all of my basics and foundations down first before I can even touch them(?).

I think these two exercises are actually Hanon 1 and Hanon 9 of his original 60. I also find them mechanical and repetitive, but helpful in my case. I have been doing each one a pair of times for a warmup during the last two weeks. Once you memorize the pattern you don't need the sheet music and it takes literally 4 or 5 minutes max to run through both of them twice.[/b][/QUOTE]

Very helpful to know.

I broke down and sold off a few things via craigslist so I could get a Privia PX-200 to practice each night using headphones. I can't wait until it arrives!![/b][/QUOTE]

Good for you!

I was so excited once I ordered mine that I could hardly sleep, especially the night before it arrives.

I love watching and listening to your youtube link to "The 5 Browns" performances. Fantastic! And your mother-in-law's story is pretty uplifting and funny too.

Happy playing to you!

Key Notes

Good for you mom3gram!

Believe me, that "Beautiful Brown Eyes" was giving me black circles under my eyes as well. I stayed up wee into the night and AM hours to attempt to tame it. I've always been afraid of learning to use the pedals in conjunction with everything else, and I guess I expected it to be harder since this is my very first time learning it, and I'm sure it will be with more advance and harder pieces in the future, but it wasn't too bad for this piece. I don't know, or maybe I just got all scared with anticipations from hearing how hard it was for you and a couple of other people here. Silly me.

OT: I mentioned a few days back about my grandchildren playing a duet at their recital. Well, they did okay, although my granddaughter evidently turned around and glared at her brother a few times, indicating that either he made a mistake or was playing to slow for her. But at least they finished together and didn't get into an argument. Unfortunately, Dad forgot to charge the video camera, so I won't get to see the recital. Evidently most of the kids did a duet with a piano playing parent, and one kid played with her grandmother. My son mentioned that maybe next year..... I told him not to even think about it. :-) [/b][/QUOTE]

It's really too bad that you didn't get to see or hear your grandchildren's duet performances, but I'm sure you must be so proud regardless. And I seconded redeagle's uplifting inspirations to you to think about your son's suggestions. What beautiful experiences and memories that would make.

Happy playing and best regards,

Key Notes

The recital was on a weeknight, about two and a half hours away from me. I don't drive at night anymore, and am not really comfortable driving that distance by myself either. So I'm disappointed in not seeing a video of the recital. I did get to see last year's, when they were just beginning. It's funny how different the kids are. My grandson is 15 and learns note reading, etc. as a normal beginner. My granddaughter is almost 11, and has been playing by ear since she was about 6. She has no patience for reading music, and plays her lessons pretty much with a combination of ear and memory. She picks things up so easily - but the two of them had real trouble playing together and it usually ended up in an argument. I'm glad they were able to pull it off. They played "Parade of the Wooden Soldiers".

As far as my playing with them, I'm still struggling with early level 1 stuff, I don't have a real piano, just a 61-key keyboard, and I don't have a teacher. And, like I said, I live 2 1/2 hours away. And we haven't even added stagefright into the mix yet. :-) So my playing a duet with them is just not practical.

I have a question which might be worthy of it's own thread, but we'll start here, and escalate if it seems worth it.

What part of the learning process for a given piece is the most beneficial to long-term expertise? Suppose there is a learning curve for a new piece, where the initial acquisition of expertise is very steep... initially (Stage 1) I might sound like a complete idiot on a new piece, but after a couple hours (Stage 2), you can recognize the tune, then there is a period of refinement where everything gets smoother (Stage 3), and finally a long period (Stage 4) where the last little kinks are getting ironed out.

In which of those stages am I improving the most? Which is the most valuable?

Reason I ask is, more and more, I am finding myself putting considerable time in the last stage, ironing out the little things that trip me up. And I am beginning to question whether or not this is the best use of my practice time.

If I know what a piece is supposed to sound like,I am in luck,otherwise I am screwed for reading rhythems.
One pawed I am fine,put in the other one and it all falls apart. I have the right hand part of Kumbaya down fine,the left hand part ok,when I put the 2 together,it all falls apart. (what was that note again thats a G duh!)and for me the idea of reading the notes as well its 6ths is part of the problem I had before. I learned A was 2 fingers down b 1 finger plus thumb c no fingers...not the note names just the what is it supposed to sound like and what fingers go down....
bad idea. I did not know that at the time. So needless to say,I still look at anything in bass clef as "what is that note"not wher do I put my finger,I am attempting to not make the same mistake again.
sometimes step one for me is what are the notes for the left hand,then what is the timing,as in counting. I have written in some of the counting for pieces.
never had to do that for flute.
all steps are valuable. the most valuable one i guess would be the one that makes you go AHA I think I got it....just when I think that I discover NOT,...and its back to practice.
sounding like a complete idiot..happens a lot to me.
the last part of fine tuning a piece can be the hardest for me. Its a "i think I got it...but then I record myself and discover,no way jose.....I am just using the roland keyboard now...away from my favorite yummie toy /////serious withdrawal symptoms may occur...
I have been given permission to go a tasty tower in Ok City but its about a 3 hour drive each way and with gas being 350 a gal...and I get about 15 miles to the gal.

I have a question for you guys. How many of you have a hard time whith the last 2 measures of Lavender's Blue,as in iding all four notes.

I think I have the rest of the piece down mostly.

Interesting questions AWtPP. I would be interested in knowing what the others' thoughts are in this regard, particularly from the piano instructors. I agreee, while many people may visit this thread, perhaps you may be right in giving it its own thread for wider coverage.

:) I personally can't imagine performing in any kind of live or on stage performances. I think all of my fingers and mind would freezed up, and my hands would definitely need a pair of electric gloves in order to thaw them out again.

The only performing experience I've had was being in a ballet dance recital way back when and wow, that was plenty scary enough for me. My mind did froze for a second at one point and I didn't even know what the next move was, but then I found it again.

Question posted. Let's see what the teachers have to say.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/27/2063.html

AWtPP, I don't have an answer for you, but I too am interested in what you find. Especially after reading some recent posts about students with teachers trying to play a piece cold (first time through, without warm up) without error for their teacher.

That said, I often find my first take (of a well practiced piece) is the best. I tend to go down hill after that.

Key Notes,
The last two months with Alfred's is my first ever experience playing any musical instrument. The Czerny Op.599 "Practical Exercises for the Beginner" is a progressive set of excerises. They're not mechanical like Hanon, but they're not sonatas, either. Just musical, nice-sounding practice exercises, which, is actually what the simplified song arragnements we play in Alfreds are too.

It is written in two chapters. I think most folks in Book 1 that have reached Alpine Melody could handle almost anything up to Exercise 31.

Just FYI, the titles for the groups of exercises in Chapter 1 are:
- Prelimnary studies for the knowledge of the notes (1-10)
- Exercises for the 5 fingers with hands at rest (11-18)
- The First Excercises for the Thumbs (19-26)
- Excercises Exceeding the Compass of an Octave (27-31)
- Exercises in Sharps and Flats (36-38)
- Exercises in Other Easy Keys (39-43)

Beyond this it gets into velocity exercises and complex melody stuff that I can't see doing for a while. Ex 1-10 are basically scales and simple chords so I tried them just once and now do not play them. Eleven was the first that sounds like any sort of song.

Here is a youtube recording of somebody doing number 13, to give you an idea of what they sound like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUu-TjqxVpE

I decided to do a few as sight reading practice and to take a mental/aural break from my 50th rendition of "When the Saints Go Marching In". If you take lessons, I would discuss with your teacher if/which you should do based on their plan for your studies. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

At the end of the day, I have found that at ANY level, one can be swamped with many more exercises, studies and practice pieces than one could handle even with 3 or 4 hours each day to practice. It becomes a challenge to make the best/most efficient use of limited time to perfect or improve your skills.

Which now leads us into the discussion AWTPP brought up...

Ok, brief update on the thread on the piano teacher's forum... DO NOT GO THERE! (Of course, now that I say this, you will. I know I would.)

The message I'm getting is that, as long as I am self-teaching, there is no benefit in any of the phases of learning a piece. Since I plan on signing on with a teacher later this year, I may as well shelve it for now, and not ingrain my bad habits any further.

AWTPP, Shelve what? Not continuing and finishing up the rest of Alfred's book 1? Or, not go to back and work through the second half of it as you've previously mentioned? Or, to not continue to take lessons from any of Alfred's books period until you've signed up with a teacher?

The suggestion is that I shelve Alfred's entirely, and not touch the piano again until I get a teacher. When I do, they may or may not want to use Alfred's, it all depends on what they use.

I read some of the posts in the teachers thread and doing all of book one in 4 months. Even with a teacher it is not a reasonable time frame. It would be the exception. So with that mind set the whole Alfred program would be completed in about a year? Again way out of line. Listening to many Alfred one players it seems the average time frame is more like 6-8 months with a heavy practice schedule. I took 7 months 3 without a teacher and 4 more with a teacher. I wonder what everyone else's time frame has been for Alfred one.

PS: Alfred two took me 8-9 months and I'm still cleaning us stuff in that book...

If I were you, I would continue just what you are doing. If you stop playing for a few months and wait for a teacher, you will either totally frustrate yourself with piano withdrawal, or you will backslide and lose a lot of what you have already learned. You might even find yourself losing some of the interest and enthusiasm you have now. And so what if you start book 2 and your new teacher wants you to use something else? You will have a supplemental book to dip into whenever you wish. Bad habits? Yeah, maybe, but measure that against the enjoyment you are getting out of it. Life's too short to wait for later.

:D I can definitely identify with you there.


If you take lessons, I would discuss with your teacher if/which you should do based on their plan for your studies. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.[/b][/QUOTE]

Very good advise and definitely a good idea. I'm currently self-teaching, although I have a lady friend who is a classical piano instructor, and whom has kindly offered to provide me with instructions free of charge, I've decided to not take advantage of our friendship and self-teach. Although, I will still gratefully and gladly seeks out her occasional coaching and guidances should I ever ran into something too difficult for me to do deal with.


At the end of the day, I have found that at ANY level, one can be swamped with many more exercises, studies and practice pieces than one could handle even with 3 or 4 hours each day to practice. It becomes a challenge to make the best/most efficient use of limited time to perfect or improve your skills.[/b][/QUOTE]

For sure. I barely get in 2-3 hours weekday evenings and about 3-4 over the weekends. There are just too many things that I need to do, want to do and enjoy doing. It's definitely a fine line between concentrating on a few versus spreading myself too thin. But I guess it's my way and attempts at enjoying my life and potentials to the fullest. Speaking of which, I better get to practice now. Hopefully I'll be able to get to Alpine Meadow by this weekend as well.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences with me.

Happy playing to you!

Key Notes

Although I had only gone over there once initially to read your question and a couple of responses and have not gone back sinced to read the rest but wow, this seemed like a drastic diagnose for them to make, assuming that they have neither seen nor heard you played. Very interesting. Obviously their fear of your potential reinforcement of your own "bad" habits outweighs even your interest of learning how to play the piano.

I don't know what your goals are but unless you are planning on being a professional concert pianist, I don't see what bad habits can possibly be bad enough to completely stop your enjoyment of learning how to play the piano, or any other instruments for that matter. But what do I know, I'm just a mere amateur beginner.

I'm sure that we each have our own set of known and unknown bad habits but wow, to stop completely and not finish something that you've started so long ago and are so close to finishing up seems absolute insane to me. Unless it's detrimental to your physical and mental health and well-being, that's like dropping out of school when you are almost graduating!

The next question I have is, can you start working with any other method books if you put away Alfred's, or does your bad habits, since it's a part you now, will always prevents you from learning and studying on your own even with other method books? Did they recommend any other learning resources or do you absolutely have to always work with a teacher from now on?

I'm sure that I have plenty of bad habits but I just can't see myself stopping completely until I get a teacher, so I agree with everything mom3gram is saying in this case, "Life is too short to wait for later".

But of course, only you will know and can decide what's best for you at any given time.

Best of luck to you!

Key Notes

Interesting informations.

I wonder what everyone else's time frame has been for Alfred one.[/b][/QUOTE]

A perfect idea for another independent thread. I would like to know as well, not to compare since we all learn at different rates along with many other factors included but just to get an idea and time frames.

I started 12 weeks and 1 day ago on March 19, 2008 and am now on page 65 of AAIO, book 1, with medium (2+ hrs./day) to heavy (4+ hrs./day) level of practices. I don't know if this is normal (average) or not but those are my stats.

Key Notes

I would keep going. Acknowledging the bias you will get from most teachers, I do think it is best have a teacher or mentor in any field, but it is extremely narrow minded to discard completely the value of self-learning.

So what if your technique isn't perfect. How could Seabiscuit win every race with such an ugly gait? How can Jim Furyk win tournaments with such an ugly golf swing? How the heck could Glenn Gould play the piano sitting so low? How did Horowitz manage such control with those flat hands? Pros in every sport constantly undergo training to modify/improve technique. I think you will be working on your piano technique your whole life. But I guaranty you ZERO advancement if you stop.

Sure, perfect technique is great. Having a teacher is preferred, but many great achievements in many fields have been accomplished by the self-taught. It all depends on you and the results you want. Is learning making you happy? Can you keep the beat? read the notes? manage the dynamics you want? Do you stay free of pain in hands/wrists?

Even if you get a teacher in 3/6/9/12 months and have to retrain some physical techniques, you will still have advanced a lot, enjoyed yourself and grown in musicality.

Personally, I feel if I am getting somewhere if my kids can "name that tune" when I play it.

PS: If you have young ones, don't let them know you can play "Wheels on the Bus" or its all you will ever play.

PPS: I suggest watching some videos of professional concert pianists. I went to see an awesome recital yesterday at the Miami International Piano Festival. It is amazing what you can learn just watching their technique. Focus on the fundamentals. Watch the angles and the movement of their elbows, arms and wrists.

A perfect idea for another independent thread. I would like to know as well, not to compare since we all learn at different rates along with many other factors included but just to get an idea and time frames.

I started 12 weeks and 1 day ago on March 19, 2008 and am now on page 65 of AAIO, book 1, with medium (2+ hrs./day) to heavy (4+ hrs./day) level of practices. I don't know if this is normal (average) or not but those are my stats.

Key Notes [/b][/QUOTE]

You sound like you are at the pace I was at in book one. Not the AAIO, but the regular Adult. A very nice pace. Some take a year some less. But very few in 4 months I believe...

Hi Everyone,
Great posts here and elsewhere on the forum. I am a newbie (oldie but goodie) and have been playing about two months on my own...I didn't even know about DP's until Christmas...got the bug...anyway...my question and I hope I'm on the right forum here...I will be teaching myself...I can play simple tunes from a fakebook using C, F,G, G7, D7 chords...I usually memorize them and try to play them without looking...Now I need to move on...My question...I do not have a teaching book...but have read about the Adult series of Books by Alfred (all in one) and Bastien and Faber...which one would you recommend? I do not want to learn Classical...just blues, pop, country and gospel. Thanks!

Welcome Jim...

I would guess most here would recommend Alfred since this is the Alfred book one thread..

All the methods you mentioned are fine, but most tend to follow a classical route. Alfred does mix things up and has its share of blues, jazz and other pieces. I can't comment on the others. methods. These methods teach you to read music and in the long run will allow you to play what you like.

If your goal is improv then these methods are not for you. There are online resources like Piano Magic that can help you there...

If you are in piano for the long term then even spending a year or two doing a method isn't a bad foundation.

Also you might consider a teacher who specializes in your preferred music.

Hope this helped...

Mark

Thank Mark... I really appreciate your input...let me also ask...there is an Alfred's Teach Yourself to Play Blues...would this be a good choice?...would it have technic and theory as the AAIO book has? Thanks again!

Hi jukeboxjim - I'm not familiar with any of the other method series, but from direct experience I can recommend the Alfred Adult All-In-One Books (3 Levels).

I'm nearing the end of Level 2 and have really enjoyed the educational journey provided by this well-organized, mature approach to learning to play the piano.

Perhaps one of the biggest assets or advantages of the Alfred series is that is does present study pieces from across a very wide range of the musical spectrum such as folk songs, blues, light classics, pop, country, gospel, a little jazz, world music, etc. basically everything you said you were interested in playing, and more.

Mark & Key Notes - FYI, it took me the better part of 10 months to work thru Book 1, but I spent alot of time going back & reviewing as I completed each section. But the time it takes to work thru it - assuming that you study every piece in it and don't skip over pieces you don't like or find too hard - will vary a great deal depending on many factors such as motivation, available practice time, method of practicing, how much time you spend reviewing & "polishing", natural talent for the piano, and even whether you have a teacher or are self-teaching (like me).

It would be interesting to discover what the average time is - if such a thing would actually be meaningful at all - especially broken down between students with teachers and those self-teaching. Should we start a thread in the ABF asking for input on this from current and past Book 1 (also Books 2 & 3) students and maybe from teachers in the Teacher's Forum?

Regards, JF

Good to know. Thanks.