This is a study group for the wonderfull music of David Nevue. We will be playing God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen.

The talented participants will include:

Monica Kern
Shortcircuit85
Opus45
Shirokuro
kawaigirl1
rocky
psychopianoman

The sheet music can be purchased HERE.

If interested reply, everyone is allowed, skill level does not matter.

We are looking at starting after July 4th.

All right! I am psyched indeed. One of my favorite new age artists, and a chance to have a song ready for Christmas! (Last Christmas, I never did quite nail down my holiday pieces in time to feel comfortable playing them for others.)

I just listened to Nevue's recording again. Oh, if I can actually play this by Christmas, I will be one happy man!

A beautiful carol...beautifully arranged.

(I see (hear) what all the fuss is about this guy and his music...divine.)

I listened to the sample clip, I will have to order the cd now, I looked at the sample page and it does not look to bad but he does usually open a little mellow on the intro and then tends to get more technical.

I think this will be fun even if it is hard. I can not wait!

Gulp! I just looked at the sample page and listened to the GRYMG arrangement. It is a lovely arrangement. But it's also clearly no walk in the park and sounds a lot harder than the other David Nevue pieces I have learned. [wonders if maybe they should have started earlier, like January?]

I too thought it sounded difficult when I listened to the recording, but the music seems simpler than I was expecting. It's easier from a technical perspective, harder from an expressional perspective. I think it's the fact he is rocking alot of chords back and forth that both makes it sound harder but look easier.

This being my first Nevue piece, I would be interested to hear how you guys (Monica, Shiro, Rocky, anybody else who have played his other pieces) compare the skill level of this piece to any of his other pieces when you get the score.

The hardest piece I have played is The Vigil, it took a while to get it down and longer to memorize.

This looks about the same, he usually follows a predictable pattern and after a week I usually latch on to what is happening. His left hand almost allways follows a set pattern once the song gets going. The right hand focuses on bringing the melody out and playing with the chords.

I have finished 4 of his pieces and am working on 3 others now but am in no hurry to finish them up, just toying with them when I have a moment.

Oh goody goody, let's get started! I mean, after July 4th of course. I'll get out my score and see how I think it compares to Overcome (the only other DN piece I've played so far.)

BTW, Psychopianoman, what other DN pieces have you played?

Monica, would you list your DN repertoire too? I'm curious what everyone's chosen to play.

My DN repertoire: Solitude; The Gift; Home; Overcome; Emerald Valley. And a bunch of sheet music downloaded I haven't started yet.

GRYMG definitely seems the hardest of what I've learned so far.

I have finished in order of difficulty to me:

Overcome (follows easy pattern)
Ascending with Angels (follows easy pattern)
Variations (only harder due to the expression)
The Vigil (hardest for me because I had to sight read this one)

Currently playing around with:

The Gift (A little harder than overcome)
Take my Life and Let it Be (needs lots of expression)
The Emerald Valley (About the same as overcome)

The difficulty is only my opinion and I do hope to learn all of his music. Once I tackle a little more of his stuff I think I will be ready for some David Lanz.

I think it's interesting how people's perceptions of difficulty vary so much... I view The Gift and Emerald Valley as being fairly easy and comparable to each other, and Overcome as being the hardest--yeah, it's got lots of repetition, but that low E-flat bass run is a KILLER to play smoothly without messing up! (At least for me. ShiroKuro, I am FINALLY at a point where I can play it better with the new fingering you suggested than I did before with the old. Phew!)

Ok, sign me up for this group. I haven't got the sheet music yet, however, I looked at the sample page and it looks....well....difficult to me. However, most stuff looks (and is) difficult to me. This is another one like "Edgewater" that I probably won't be very successful with, but we shall see.

So far, I have played the following of David's:

Home
The Gift
Psalm 77
Deep Heaven

Have played around with:
One Night at Mozart's
Winter Walk
Overcome (never gonna play this one right!)

Never say never, rocky. You will play it. Just as you and I will one day play Edgewater. I hope.

Add me in.

Ok, so I downloaded GRYMG just now...looked over the music and, well, just about fainted!! Just glancing over the sheet music this looks pretty daggone difficult to me!! Hopefully, it will be easier to play than it looks.

Good thing I'm getting started on it now so it will be ready by Christmas......2010

rocky, you just motivated me to download the piece. Move over; I'm going to faint, too. Let's see...how can we put a positive spin on it? Uh, it's only 4 pages? The left hand doesn't look too bad? The first two lines look positively easy, so if worse comes to worst, we can just repeat them a dozen times and pretend that's the entire song?

I'm pretty sure I'll be able to play the first two lines!!! Yes, indeed, I can handle those!!

4 pages, but you have to go back play parts of page 2 and 3 again!!!

Hopefully knowing the melody already will help out!!

Okay, I just listened to the piece again while going along with the sheet music, and it's not QUITE as bad as I had feared. The only real tough part will be the fast jazzy section in measures 32-40. I'm not optimistic about my chances of pulling those 8 measures off. But the rest seems doable.

Yes, I'm also thinking this is going to be a bit difficult. I played through GRYM and Carol of the Bells yesterday, and the Carol is definitely easier-- no, no, not GW's Carol, the one form the Virtuoso book!

So I'm going to start the Carol first (too much difficult music in my practice menu right now) and then start on GRYM. And of course, I won't be starting with the easy part. But I haven't decided which section looks like it's the hardest. Any thoughts? Are the rest of you going to start at the beginning or somewhere else?

Monica, I just re-read your post, so I'm guessing measure 32 is the place to start then? (I don't have my score out just now)

BTW, as I was looking through this piece yesterday I was thinking that it's very DN-esque. The development of the music is very straight-forward, the sections transform into each other seemlessly and naturally. And the theme is very clear (obviously, since it's a lyric) I think there will be some challenging places, but it should be a lot easier when we get started on them. This is very do-able!

I have not looked at it yet but I like the way you described it, most of the time he follows a set path, I will get it tonight and see. I hope it is not as bad as everyone states.

I played a bit of this last night and maybe, just maybe, it will be something I can play. Some parts look harder to me than they actually were. I will give it my best shot!

Bob, thanks for the great concert report! I soo wish I could have been there, it sounds like it was a wonderful night. I'm not surprised you found David Nevue to be really good with the audience, I've emailed with him a few times, and he seems really friedly and down to earth. So are you going to start working on any of the music you heard there?

Hi everyone,

I'm very excited to see this happening here at PianoWorld. How cool is this - people excited to play my music!

I've got three new sheet music selections coming out soon as well. I hope to get them up within the next week or so if anyone wants to tackle those.

They are.... (drumroll please)
"Wonderland" - really simple
"Sweet Dreams & Starlight" - gets slightly tricky at the end
"Watching the Clock" - this one is in Ab - SEVEN flats! That might scare a few of you, but actually it's pretty simple to play once you figure out the time signature changes and remember that it's C *FLAT* which is really weird to see on paper and then play a B - er - not a B, C flat.

Anyway, keep up the good work!

David, I *really* like your music!!! I knew from the newsletter that you would be having new sheet music soon and have been waiting anxiously!! I have almost all the others even though I can't play them all. Heck, even the ones I say I can play don't sound much like your version, but hey, they sound ok to me!!

My favorite at the moment is "Deep Heaven", just love it!!

P.S. I really hate C flats!!!! :p

yeah, F flats aren't much fun either...

Well David, I think I'm not alone when I say I'm excited to see that you're excited to see us learning your music. I think it's neat that the composer is out there watching us learn his music. It's not like Chopin is going to pop in on the other group learning Raindrops...

No kidding Andrew, how cool is that?

(of course, it will make it very intimidating to submit a practice recording to the study group...can you imagine how he would cringe hearing me destory his beautiful music?)

HI Y'ALL. AND HELLO TO DAVID NEVUE! I'M NOT A MEMBER OF THIS GROUP, BUT I DECIDED TO POP IN BECAUSE I LOVE DAVIDS MUSIC. I WAS EXCITED TO SEE HIM ON THIS THREAD. I AM WORKING ON OVERCOME[/b] RIGHT NOW. I JUST GOT DONE DOING THE GIFT[/b]. I WOULD LIKE TO DO THE VIGIL[/b] SOMEDAY, I REALLY LIKE THAT SONG. AND DAVID NEVUE: WHEN I HAVE BAD DAYS I LISTEN TO YOUR MUSIC.....AND IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER!!!! SO KEEP ON COMPOSING THAT BEAUTIFUL MUSIC!

Arias, if you post here that automatically makes you a member.

We'll expect recorded practice submissions by September! :p

GEE WHIZ, MAYBE I BETTER TAKE A LOOK AT THE MUSIC AND SEE IF I CAN HANDLE IT

Thank you David for your support. You will have to check out our recordings when we get finished.

That was too funny.

Hi Arias,

OK, I will!

I have two albums in the works. One is all arrangements of traditional hymns, the other is almost entirely new music. Both will probably come out in 2007. At least, I hope so.

Ok, so I just downloaded the sheet music (and purchased a few albums) and here is my take.

First page: It will not be as easy as I had thought it would be but the first page is ok untill measure 17, 18, and 19.

Second page: 20 and 21 no problem and the rest of it will be a killer for me.

Third page: 36-40 a killer for me. The rest of it is not bad.

Fourth page: This is another page of doom for me but much of it is repeated from page two. So will not be a problem IF I learn page two.

I think I can do it but it will take at least 8 weeks if not more and I am thinking 12 weeks to have it memorized to a performance level.

I will need some explanation on the repeated signs. I do not know what they all mean and where the music goes unless my CD gets to me quickly and I listen to it and mark it down. I will surely need advice and support on this one because the hardest one I have played is the vigil and this is much harder to me.

By the way; I will be starting on page two but to keep my interest I will be spending some time on page one because I think I can get it up to speed quickly which will motivate me (I am impatient) to press through this. I have never spent a long time on a peice of music.

Psychopianoman, I hope David will come back here from time to time, but until then maybe I can help you with the repeats.

One thing I like about David's scores is that they all have the measures numbered, so that will help us to talk it the score. Also, The score is nicely spaced out. I remember when I printed out George Winston's Canon from his CD, the first thing I did was xerox it, cut it up and re-paste it more spaced-out because the layout was so cramped! Sorry, back to the topic at hand!

Ok, there are no repeats on the first two pages, but you'll see a Segno mark in measure 26.(Looks like a S with a slash through it and two dots.) Remember that because it marks a destination.

Page 3, end of measure 42 you will see "To Coda" with that circle-cross thing. I have always called that symbol itself a Coda mark, but my Japanese piano teacher sometimes calls it a Bee-Day (that's a phonetical spelling of her Japanese, but I don't know where that word comes from.) So I'm not really sure what this mark is usually called in English.

Anyway, the first time you play this, you play right through that. Play all the way to measure 66. There you'll see "D.S. al Coda." D.S. is short for Dal Segno, which means "return to the Segno" and "al coda" means "play to the coda."

So what does all that really mean? Play to measure 66, return to the Segno at measure 26, and play through to measure 42. At the end of measure 42, where it says DS al Coda, skip to measure 67, which is clearly marked with the Coda circle-cross mark, and play to the end.

Without checking by listening to the CD, you can tell this is right because measure 25 and measure 66 are similar enough so that you can see it will be a smooth transition. Same with 42 to 67.

Why use this kind of repeat-system? There are probaby other reasons, but I always appreciate this kind of coda set-up because it makes the entire score probably a full page shorter, so the music fits nicely on the stand.

Psychopianoman, this explanation may have been more thorough than you needed, but maybe someone else will benefit from it. Also, if anyone knows other names for these symbols, please share them here. I cannot figure out why my music-university-educated piano teacher says "bee-day," because I have never seen that word in any music dictionary, Japanese or English. I suspect it's from a non-Japanese, non-English word, and my love of etymology means that I have always wondered about that word ever since the first time she used it over a year ago!

Thanks, I needed it all. Now I understand what to do. I have not taken traditional piano lessons since around 2001 I think or 2002. Anyways, I forgot all these symbols.

Psychopianoman, glad the explanation was helpful!

Today is my first day of playing around with GRYMG. I'm thinking that a good learning approach for me will be to work though this HS at first. I can fairly easily sight read this HS and should be able to get each hand up to speed [1/4=100] fairly quickly (left hand will take a little more time).

I think I'll also record each hand separately and play along with the recorded hand (taking turns left & right hand). I'll work this up to [1/4=100].

Then, I'll work on playing HT at slow tempo & gradually increase tempo as I'm able to play it accurately.

This method worked well for me for a Bach Fugue that was giving me fits (and it was a fun way to learn it).

This is my first David Nevue piece. I've already decided that "Overcome" will be my next David Nevue piece (thanks to Monica's flawless and inspiring recital performance).

Ok, I guess it's time for me to get started on this too. Between this piece and "the Carol of the Bells" I'll be expecting Christmas to arrive any day now! :p

I've started too! Parts of this aren't too bad, other parts are going to be a struggle. Most all music is like that for me.

Can I retract that statement?

In order to play this smoothly at [1/4=100] I'll need to have some dependable & efficient fingering worked out (and the sooner in the learning process, the better for me). The fingering for measures 1-22 seem highly intuitive to me, and Mr. Nevue provides some very good suggestions as well. However, measures 23-31 seem much less intuitive and do not contain fingering suggestions from Mr. Nevue.

I worked through these measures a few times and made several changes in places. This is the fingering I've worked out for measures 23-31:

23:[/b] 1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, 1-4, 3, 2

24:[/b] 1-3, 4, 3, 4, 1-5, 2, 3

25:[/b] 1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, 1-4, 3, 2

26:[/b] 1-3, 4, 3, 4, 1-5, 2

27:[/b] 3-1-2-3 4-5-2-1

28:[/b] 3, 1, 2, 3 1-4, 3, 2, 3, 4

29:[/b] 1-5, 1-5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 3

30:[/b] 1-2, 4, 3, 2, 1-5, 2, 3

31:[/b] 1-4, 3, 4, 5, 3, 2, 1, 3

I'm certainly no expert for developing good fingering technique (a former teacher often pointed out potential problems with fingering I developed).

How does this compare with what you all have worked out? Does anyone have fingering suggestions for these measures that you think would be more efficient?

I am not sure I understand the above fingering but do agree I will need some sort of steady fingering to go by or I will never play it.

I am starting this today and should have an idea on what I will do for the second page and will post it back.

Here is what I do and why. Any time more than one note is being played I use the thumb so it is not included and this is for the treble line only.

This is way off for classicly traned people because I use the pinky way to much. I have thrown that rule out the window and my pinky has alot of control and agility but it will some times go crazy. I also use fingers again that have just hit notes. I know this is a no no but I am not trying to play the hard classical music so I will not need all the harder fingerings.

I have set this up to allow me to use the same fingers on notes in the first beat of the measure such as 23, 24, 25, 26, and 30. I have set this up for what is easiest for my hands to remember (muscle memory).

I am just showing what I do to share my method. What opus45 posted would be better if you are building technique or are classically trained as some of it was to hard for me.

23:[/b]2-5-5-4-3-3-2-1
24:[/b]2-3-4-5-5-1-2
25:[/b]2-5-5-4-3-3-2-1
26:[/b]2-3-4-5-5-5
27:[/b]3-1-2-3-4-5-2-1
28:[/b]3-1-2-3-4-3-2-3-4
29:[/b]4-5-4-5-4-3-2
30:[/b]2-4-3-2-5-3-4
31:[/b]3-4-5-5-3-2-1-3

This may change but it is working out for now.

I finally did some serious work on this piece yesterday (not long, but focused.) I'm thinking this piece might be more difficult for me than I thought, and unlike some others, it might actually be more difficult than it looks. Hopefully not! In any case, here is what I am going to do in the short-term.

1) Not listen to the original version. David plays it with great rubato throughout, his tempo is very free (hence "freely" written at the beginning.) That is one of the things that makes this piece interesting, but I think trying to attempt that from the beginning would make it easy to create sloppy timing and bad habits. So first I'm going to work on getting it even and steady, and up to a good tempo. Then, I'll probably go back and listen to his version again and see whether I want to (if I even can) imitate his rubato-style, whether I want to play it straight or do the tempo fluctuations in my own way.

2) Play HS (and some HT) for the whole piece for a few days. I can't quite get a handle on which parts will need the most attention, so I think I just want to get to know the piece better overall.

3) Work on sections 30 through 40 because IIRC that's where the rhythm is interesting, and I think that will be hard to learn since it's different from the original singing melody that I still have stuck in my head.

Hi psychopianoman,

Thanks for taking time to write out & share your fingering for those measures. And I see what you mean about understanding the fingering I wrote, it was very confusing, so I changed it to a more conventional way of writing them out (and included all the "thumbs").

If you're throwing out rules, then you probably know more than I do about classical fingering. As far as I know, your fingering might be more classical (or conventional?) than mine.

For measures 24 & 26, I initially used fingering that you have indicated & changed it for some reason I can't recall. I'll be trying them both out while I learn, I may end up going back to what you've worked out for those same measures.

I don't really use any "rules" for developing fingering, but I do try to work out fingering that:

1] prevents me from running out of fingers
2] allows me to play something over & over without inducing finger or hand pain
3] related to #2; follows as closely as possible a "natural hand shape (relaxed, contracted or extended)
4] is as efficient as possible (permits accuracy & speed) and,
5] sets me up well for the next note/measure/phrase

It seems to me that you are equating "classical" fingering with "hard". I'm not so sure about that. I've learned some music pieces where the fingering indicated seemed "hard or odd" to me, where after some time, the odd fingering made sense to me (especially after gaining speed). Other times, I will dismiss suggested fingering completely.

[Edit] Hi Shiro, we were simulposting again. I'm with you on the hands seperate for learning GRYMG. It seems that this technique works well for some pieces, and for others HT works best from the beginning. This piece seems well suited for learning HS at first.

By the way, what is IIRC?

From what I learned with traditional lessons the fingering sometimes left what was eaiser to me. This was only to get you ready for tougher music that ran all over the place so you incoorperated tricky fingering up front. This is only harder at first but becomes a habit after awhile.

I was only trying to explain so I do not teach my bad habits to those learning a classical approach. In classical fingering it is usually a no no to use the pinky the way I do and hitting different notes with the same finger as much as I do.

I just felt that my fingering was the lazy way which will never allow me to progress to difficult music. For new age and popular music this style does fine though.

You are right, what seems odd or hard does make sense especially when people progress to more difficult sheet music.

I do think Shirokuro does classical alot, she would probably have a better handle on those needing fingering suggestions than I.

I just want to make sure I do not lead anyone astray.

I agree, I got my CD's yesterday (yeah!!!) and have been listening to it and it gets kind of crazy.

It is easiest IMO if you just get the notes down to perfection where you can play them without much thought and then go back and add the style and special touches. This is how I have learned all his music so far. He uses rubato alot in his music, I do good just to imitate it. I never really get it perfect. My recordings are always 10 to 30 seconds off of his.

Jeff, IIRC is "if I recall correctly." I think I used it there because I didn't have the score out in front of me at the time.

Pyschopianoman, you're right, my fingering is probably much more classical-based for two reasons: 1) I'm studying Bach, and 2) I'm learning the finer points of fingering from my teacher, who is classically trained.

However an interesting thing is that, even in classical music, fingering is all about knowing the rules, and knowing when to break them. My teacher will sometimes say "the standard fingering is this, but you should play it a different way" or "really, we're not supposed to use this finger here, but it sounds better so let's do it." But the most important thing is to be purposeful, if you know the standard fingering, and why that's preferred, and then you know why you're playing it a different way, you can be sure your fingering is good. One crucial thing I've learned from my teacher is that fingering should never be haphazard, or chosen just because. Fingering should be chosen based on several factors, and the pianist should be clear on all those factors.

So here again are the criteria Jeff described for choosing his fingering.

I would add the following:

6) Takes into account previous notes, measures, phrases (not only immediately preceeding notes, but also 1 to 3 notes back)
7) Takes into account the strength of the fingers as related to melody. For ex if you want a note to really sound, you probably don't want to play it with your fourth finger, since that's the weakest finger. If you want a note to be quiet, and can avoid using the thumb, that would be better because the thumb tends to be very loud.
8) Takes into account patterns in the music, so that if the same pattern comes up repeatedly, you're playing that with essentially the same pattern even though the notes are different, this will help prevent confusion.
9) Takes into account standard fingering for chords/scales etc. For ex in the RH you'd play the C chord with fingers 1-3-5, so if you played those same notes as an arpeggio, the standard fingering would be 1, 3, 5.

I would call my approach to fingering holistic, because in choosing fingering, I'm trying to look at the whole piece, and also at all the elements in the fingers.

Psychopianoman, with new age music I think fingering is just as important, if not more. Anytime you have more than one note (simultaneously) in the RH, that means that one of those notes will be the melody and the rest will be harmony. If you want to bring out the melody, good fingering is essential. Also, even if the notes aren't played simultaneously, most music beyond the very most beginning music has non-melody notes in the RH. DN's Overcome is a good example of this, the RH upper notes (every other note in the 16th note-blocks) play the melody, and the RH thumb is playing harmony. Knowing that the thumb is too strong, but there's no way around that fingering, helps to make you aware of the difficulty/importance of bringing out the melody in this pieces.

Not that anyone here is doing this, but just as a general comment: Choosing fingering based on what feels good is probably not the best way to do it, because as we have all experienced, even awkward fingering becomes comfortable and obvious once we're used to it. So I am trying to get this criterian out of my head when thinking about fingering. If I've been using the same fingering for a few days and it still doesn't feel good, then and only then do I want to come back and think about what feels good.

Comments? Complaints, criticisms?

Everything you stated makes sense but as I stated I am lazy when it comes to this, I do not have a teacher to help me with this so I resort to what feels good and is easy to come up with.

Most of the music I play (except for Nevue and Lanz) is easy in terms of notation, it has none. Just chords and the melody notes written in to keep me on track. I only know to hit the melody harder than the fill in stuff to bring it out. Never have to think about fingering because I play it the way I want and not the same ebery time.

What do you have for fingering ShiroKuro? I chose the feel good method but am open to a better format on this song. As I stated, I lack technique so I chose what is easy.

I also think fingering is essential in New Age but most of it is not as technical as the music concert performers play which require more skill than I will ever obtain. That is why I stated that. The same applies for me when I play out of a fake book.

Anyhow back to our study session. Let me know what you peaps are doing for fingering.

I agree with what everyone stated but just did not want someone to follow my shabby fingering without making myself clear.

Psychopianoman, fingering is very individual, so there's no reason to force yourself to conform to how other people play, and if you're getting good results from playing what feels right, then there's no reason to change it.

The only thing I would advise you on, however, is using the same fingering each time you play. You will progress a lot faster (both through an individual piece and with music in general) if you use the same fingering every time. This will help you remember the music much better and much more quickly. It will greatly reduce the number of random mistakes you get after you have the piece up to tempo. Also, if you use the same fingering each time, you will develop your own fingering patterns which you can then apply to other pieces, and that will in turn help you get through that music faster.

There's no reason to force yourself to do something that seems like a chore, on the other hand, just because you don't have a teacher doesn't mean you can't aim high and be your own teacher.

Just my two yen.

Shiro (and anyone else)

How would you improve upon this right hand fingering for measures 23-31?

23: 1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, 1-4, 3, 2

24: 1-3, 4, 3, 4, 1-5, 2, 3

25: 1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, 1-4, 3, 2

26: 1-3, 4, 3, 4, 1-5, 2

27: 3-1-2-3 4-5-2-1

28: 3, 1, 2, 3 1-4, 3, 2, 3, 4

29: 1-5, 1-5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 3

30: 1-2, 4, 3, 2, 1-5, 2, 3

31: 1-4, 3, 4, 5, 3, 2, 1, 3

Sometimes I think my fingering is brilliant, other times I think I stink. Not really sure what to think of this fingering scheme??

Ok, so here is my fingering method. I tend to just play something without paying attention to any notated fingering. I do always use the same fingers. If a particular section is giving me trouble, only then do I look at any suggested fingering and try them out. This method seems to work for me. But I am also self-taught and have no aspirations of becoming a "great" pianist. Just someone who can sit down and play something that sounds a bit like music!

Thanks for sharing Rocky. I would think that if you're sure you're always using the same fingers, then you're probably giving some attention to the matter, on some level.
I would still be interested in whatever fingering pattern you're using for those measures, if it wouldn't be too much trouble? (no problem if it is )

Okay, I'm back form my vacation, and I can see I am already way behind the rest of you folks. I'll take a first stab at the sheet music tonight. ShiroKuro, I know in my heart of hearts that you are right in suggesting that we start with the most difficult section first, just as dieticians are right when they advocate a diet full of fruits and vegetables. But I just can't do it (referring to both sheet music AND diet). I like to start either at the beginning or with the easier sections. For me it would work better psychologically to master the entire piece except for the tricky measures 32-40, because that would give me the extra push to stick with it and get those measures down; my thinking is something like "okay, Kern, you've got the whole piece down except for 8 lousy measures, there's NO WAY you're going to give up at this point." Whereas if I start with the 8 tricky measures, I would be too tempted to conclude that it's too hard for me and give up.

p.s. to David: I was absolutely delighted to hear that the sheet music for "Watching the Clock" will be available...that is one of my favorite pieces of yours and I was hoping you'd transcribe it.

Monica, it makes sense to start with the easiest parts and then kind of "egg yourself on" for the difficult parts after you've got all the rest taken care of. In terms of personal motivation, I can really understand that. But you just know I have to add another comment, so it may sound suspiciously like I'm trying to convince you otherwise, but try to ignore that part!

The reason for starting with the hardest part first is two-fold. 1) If you start with the hardest section(s) first, often you'll find a lot of elements of the other sections there, and it makes the rest of the piece easier to learn. This is said to help with motivation as well because once you get the hard part into your fingers, you know you can do the rest of it. 2) If you start with the hardest section(s) first, that means you are practicing that section for the entire time you work on the piece, often several months, instead of starting your practice on that part near the end of your practice of the piece. That means that you'll have put in much more practice time on that section overall, and it will end up being one of your strongest points, which will give you a lot of confidence when you're ready to record or perform it.

I can see how one wouldn't be swayed by point number 1 here, but point number 2 is just so compelling..

However, I am not trying to convince you to change your method, so I'll put a cork in it! The important thing is that we all have a starting point and a way to stay motivated to get through the piece. I don't always start with the hardest part (gasp!) esp if I can't figure out what's going on in a piece, I'll start with the part that is easiest to understand, so I get a handle on what's going on. Then I move on to the hardest part!

Jeff, I'll look at those measures after work and see what I come up with.

I am spending this first week on everything to get a general feel for the piece.

I do not think I will have a problem playing it but the rhythm is throwing me way out of wack. 32-40 is difficult for me. I do not even know how to count the beats out in this area. Can anyone help me here or should I just try to mimic what I hear on the CD.

I am with you, this area is hard to play correctly for me. I would appreciate any help you can offer. I can not count it out to equal 4 beats?????

psycho,

maybe this will help for measure 32:

eighth notes get ½ beat, and 16th notes get ¼ beat

b-e (one) b (and) b-b (two) b-a (and) b-g (three) b-f (and) b-e (uh) b-e (four, but holding: tie) b-d (and) d (uh)

In more detail: Using: one-e-and-uh, two-e-and-uh…. Counting scheme, then:

b-e (one-e) b (and-uh) b-b (two-e) b-a (and-uh) b-g (three-e) b-f (and) b-e (uh) b-e (four, but holding: tie) b-d (e-and) d (uh)

This would be a tiresome way to count, I'm just dissecting it to show the math...that in fact, 4 does equal 4.

In actual practice, I would count the measure this way: (bold for notes played)

one, and, two, and three, and, uh[/b] four (holding) and, uh[/b]

Thanks, it sounds harder to count than mimic. I hope I can get it right, if not I will play it without the added style.

I understand now but what about the dotted 1/8 notes in 33 and 35.

This will be hard to make sound the same. How long does everyone anticipate this to take to get to a performance level?

The dotted note is increased by a value of 1/2 of the note value. So for measure 35, you could count measure 33 this way:

b-e (one-e) f (and-uh)
b-g (two-e) a (and-uh)
b-b (three-e-and) b-c# (uh)
b-c# (four, holding, but still counting) b-d# (e-and) b (uh)

This however, is a very cumbersome way to count (very dissected). I typed it out to help you understand the note values mathematically. [4=4]

I would actually count measure 33 out loud in this way: (bold type for actual notes played)

one, and, two, and three [/b] and uh,[/b] four and, uh[/b]

I would count measure 35 this way: (again, bold for notes played)

one, and, two, and, three[/b] and, uh, [/b]four (holding), e, and, uh[/b]

Thanks, I got it now. What would I do without everyones help???

I have been helped here too many times to count. I am only too happy to help someone else if I'm able.

Disclaimer: I make LOTS of mistakes!

Improve?? I'm not likely to do that, however, I am using different fingering, so I will share what I have been using for 23 & 24:

23: 1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-5, 1-5, 1-4, 3, 2

24: 1-3, 4, 1, 4, 1-5, 2, 3

I'm not sure this is quite right either, but so far feels the best for me.

:::wondering to self:::: How do they decide when and where to indicate suggested fingering on a score?? It seems in some places they showing fingering when it would be the logical fingers to use and other times when the fingering is complicated (at least for me) they show no fingering.....

yikes! dupicate, sorry!

Man! Isn't that the truth? What's with that?!? You wouldn't believe how many times I've wondered the same thing!

AND, I just want to say one more time: I can't believe I said I could *fairly easily* sight read this. I take it back, I take it back, I take it back!

This piece will be a challenge, but I'm excited about it!

Gosh dang it, ShiroKuro, you WOULD have to be so logical. You are right; reason #2 is extremely compelling. So much so that I am just about convinced to give your approach a try.

...though I did already put in about half an hour practicing the first two pages this evening. Those are quite manageable I think. And after I finished it, my daughter came up to me and said "Mom, I like that song the best of any that you've ever played." (Which I wasn't quite sure how to interpret, given that it was literally the first few run-throughs of the piece and so really didn't sound all that good. Oh well. I'll take compliments from my kids when I can get them. )

But tomorrow I'll start with the dreaded measures 32-40.

I think whenever anyone mentions measures 32-40, they should insert a dramatic "da da dum dum" like you hear in movies right after someone mentions something terrible.

I was having a little trouble getting the timing down on this section too. It's definetly ackward. Who's going to be the first one to dare post a recording?

The race is on.


Yeah right!

I am thinking 4 weeks.

I haven't made it to the piano yet today, but here's a hint for dealing with rythmically challenging sections. Repeat after me:

The metronome is my friend. I live the metronome and the metronome likes me. Especially when I set it to click 8 times per measure (in 4/4 time.)

If you have a metronome clicking 4 times per measure, and you have eighth notes, then there is only one note between the clicks. If you have 16th notes, and the metronome is clicking 8 times per measure, there is still only one note between clicks. This will help you stay in time, and makes it unnecessary to count "1 e and a 2 e and a." When I do this, I often just cut the measure in half (mentally) and count 1,2,3,4, 2,2,3,4. I was never able to do this (double the beats) until I started doing Bach, so if you have no idea what I'm talking about, or you try it and your head explodes, don't worry, that's normal.

Monica, logical is great, ain't it! I think you should use your method and mine together, play the easiest part and the hardest part. It's like you're knitting a sweater, and first you work on the left hand cuff, then the right hand cuff, and back and forth till you get to the middle.

Hmm, my metaphors are pretty pathetic today, it was a long day! :p

Gosh Darnit! I'm just too slow...I thought I would actually get ahead of you on this one Monica, and here you take a vacation...return & sit down at the piano for half an hour...breeze past me and go directly into the dreaded measures (32-40).

Not to worry, Opus45. I just said I played those two pages for half an hour, not that I played them WELL. :p Though I do think it won't take too long to get them up to speed.

Oops, I came here to see how my fingering compares to what you folks have listed here, and I just realized I've been working out measure 32, and you all were talking about the bit starting in measure 23! Ok, maybe more on that later.

Now, for counting measure 32, I am treating each measure as two measures and counting "one two three four, one two and(three) and(four) and" (the beats in parens are for the tie and that sandwiched 8th note). Measure 33: one two three four, one(two) and(three) and(four) and"

This is really hard to write out isn't it. First of all, if anyone is having trouble with the rhythm in these two measures, I recommend that you immediately stop listening to the original (Sorry David, you play too fast!) and try clapping the rhythm (with or without metronome) at a very slow speed, something like the spped that you'll play it at. Use whatever method works for you to be able to *understand* this rhythm as opposed to forcing yourself up to speed to be able to imitate the CD. Then, if you still haven't got it worked out by Friday, I will post a crummy RH only recording of me playing this at half speed because by then I should have the rhythm worked out. Also, if anyone is really confused, I record myself counting it with the metronome for you so you can hear different ways of counting and see what I'm talking about re doubling the beat. I hope no one needs that, because it will be really embarassing!

Monica, this is definitely the most difficult section, the rest of it is just going to roll off your fingers! And the LH is going to fit in so nicely.

Having said that, Jeff, I do think this piece is one of those that is actually harder than it looks. Kind of like the opposite of CR.

Ok, back to the piano with me!

Shiro, your observations and comparisions always seem to strike me as *right on*.

Monica, I second this comment by Shiro, GRYMG is more difficult than it might seem and the Croatian Rhapsody is easier than it might seem. I think when you do decide to play around with the CR you'll agree.

Edit: That is not to say the Croatian Rhapsody is easier than this version of GRYMG.

I have got measure 32 down except for one thing; when does that last bass note get played. With the bd combo or inbetween the bd and d in the right hand.

I am also finding that 33 does not get the authentic sound without the bass. That last bass note gives it the extra kick.

If we can get through 32-37 then I think we will have the song beat.

I have found I do best without counting. I tap out the rhythm at full speed once I have all the notes for a measure in memory. At first I even just hit one note in time. If this sounds to crazy I turn the volume down and hit a key to the rhythm hearing what is playing in my brain. What I go for is the hands hitting the keys in correct time regardless of the notes being hit. The absence of sound keeps my brain from being hindered. Try doing it if you have a digital. Put your hands on an F chord with the sound all the way down and then just pound out the rhythm as if you are hitting drums.

This works for me because I can hardly read the music anyways. If you have an acoustic just put your hand in a chord shape and do the same on the table.

Just thought I would share my crazy way of playing music that I can not read.

I assume you mean the E in the LH at the end of measure 32? that notes fits in between the last two notes in the RH for that measure. (same pattern in measure 33.)

I think your mehod of playing with the sound off is very good, it's a lot like just clapping or anything else we can do to just hear the rhythm and not the notes. Your "crazy" way ofplaying music that you can't read sounds like it works for you, the only trouble I imagine is that you might have trouble playing music that you didn't have available on a CD. If you're interested in learning how to read this piece a little better, another thing you might do is read it *after* you learn how to play it, i.e. follow along with the score and see what all those different symbols mean after you already know how to play them.

Jeff, thanks for the vote of confidence!

I agree, I am always buying CD's so that I can play the music I like. I do not mind as my main goal is to learn playing by ear. All the other music I play is gospel and contemporary christian so I know it well enough that I do not need the music, just a fake book and my ear.

Thanks for the tip on the E note in the left hand.

Do not know if anyone is interested but since we are doing Nevue Music I thought I would post two recordings I did today.

This caused my fingers to sweat so I ended up playing through a bit quickly. Playing for my piano world friends made me shake. I will have to redo them but here they are.

Be nice because they are not perfect and I slipped of the keys a few times.

These are "Overcome" and "Variations" by David Nevue ( David Nevue )
Performed and Interpreted by psychopianoman

http://www.box.net/public/f7kvar93fp#main

psychopianoman, your playing is fantastic!! I very much enjoyed listening to both pieces.

I do believe that I am out of my league with those of you in this group. I knew that before I decided to join, but it has been proven.

I have tried to play Overcome and simply can't. I know 3 of you at least have learned to play it in no time and 2 of you I've heard play it. Both did excellent jobs!!

After playing around with GRYMG, I again, think this is a piece above my level at the moment. I'm going to plug away at it, but don't expect much success.

Sorry to carry on about myself, got carried away.

Again....EXCELLENT job!!! Thanks for sharing!

P.S. I think you should go post these over in the July Piano bar so everyone will see them in case they aren't reading this thread!

You know, rocky, I am tempted to say the same thing...I spent 15 minutes today on the right hand only of measure 32. (See, ShiroKuro, I promised you I would try your method of tackling the hardest parts first!) Fifteen minutes. On one measure. Right hand only. And did I mention I was doing this with the metronome set at below half-tempo? It was highly frustrating, and I think if I were not in the study group I would've flailed away hopelessly and then given up on this piece.

But it really is only those 8 measures that are tricky, and I hereby give you (and me) permission to skip that section of the song when we play it come Christmas time.

I think I am just going to approach it with the same sort of Zen philosophy that I use with Edgewater: It's okay if it's not perfect; I'm learning something simply by trying to learn the piece even if I don't get it polished. But I think on balance it's been good to attempt both of these pieces as they push me a little beyond my comfort zone, and maybe the only way you make real progress is to tackle things outside your comfort zone. I hope.

I agree Monica!! Hopefully spending time on these is helping me in some way!! I think I tend to give up too easy, but, I always move on to something else, I don't give up! But, then again, I have very few pieces I can really play, ugh!

I feel like I'm stuck. The easy stuff is too easy and intermediate stuff for the most part is too difficult!!

I agree that it is hard but do not give up. If any of us can not get these 8 measures down then we can improvise through them.

I am not saying anyone should do this yet but do know there are options to consider befor giving up. I will need help so you all better hang in there!!!

I know, you may be saying I can't improvise. Here is the eaisest improv. on this piece. Instead of playing the notes with a swing adjust it a bit and play the notes straight (no swing). Just take out the tied 16th and the finale 16th in measure 32. That would have both your left and right hands landing on the last half beat of the measure or tha AND after 4 such as 4 and.

Look at 34. It is almost the same. There is only one note changing and that is a D. It moves frome the middle of the measure to the front. Defeat 32 and you defeat 34. Measure 33 and 35 are only about a beat and a half different.

36 and 37 look crazy. All most like some two part invention stuff going on.

We can do this if we disect the weaknesses out of the music. Do not focus on the notes. Look at it like a trail for your fingers to follow. I see the notes as M&M's that my fingers are chasing.

All I am saying is do what you have to to get past the intimidation.

Psychopianoman!! Bravo!!! Great job! Wonderful! Did you add these to the piano bar like Rocky suggested? You need to share them with everyone!

Monica, sounds like you did good work. Less than half-tempo, 15 minutes for one piece, that's the kind of work I often do with Bach. But, you spend 15 minutes on one measure, and other measures you fly through, so don't think of it as anything out of the ordinary, just part of the process. If you spend 15 minutes on that measure, yes at less than half tempo, every day for the next week, then that measure will be yours. By the way, don't forget to turn the metronome off sometimes.

By the way, did you read my mention somewhere of the 7/20 rule? I think it was while you were on vacation, so if you don't know about this already, I'll repeat it here. One idea is that you repeat something 7 times to get it into your head. Another element of this idea is that if you can't play a section 7 times in a row (slow tempo is fine) without making a mistake, then the section is too big for you to work on and you should make it smaller. The 20 part refers to 20 minutes as the limit of our concentration. Using the 7 repetitions idea, figure out how big of a section you're going to work on, and then spend 20 minutes working on it. 20 minutes and we need to take a break, or switch to another section etc.

Monica, why don't you try using this when you approach measure 32. Repeat it 7 times, veryvery slowly is fine (maybe skip the metronome for a while and don't worry too much about having perfect timing.) If you can't play it through 7 times in a row, then maybe play only half of the measure plus the first note of the second half. No wait, it's the second half that's more difficult right? Sorry, I don't have the music out now. Hmm, how about starting with the second half (plus you should play the last note of the first half so that later when you put the measure together, it will be easier to link it up) Now play that 7 times in a row. Then work on it for about 10 minutes. Get up from the piano, stretch out, sit back down. Now play that whole measure, 7 times in a row, and then work on the measure for another 5 minutes. Get up and stretch again, and then when you sit back down, it's time to work on something else, either a different section of this piece or a different piece all together. Do not expect results in one or two days. But in 7 days, or 10, I bet you will have made some noticeable progress.


This is part of doing the hard stuff first. You could spend this time now, as one little part of all your piano practice. While you're spending just a little time on this measure every day, you can also be working on the easy parts of this piece, and on other pieces. This way, you will make much faster progress overall.

BTW, what is it that is so hard about this measure? I mean for you, Monica. I know why it's hard for me, and I am using all the tricks that I'm learning from working on Bach to approach this. Would it help you to see the measure written out as two measures? (And all those notes would 8th instead of 16th notes, or 4th instead of 8th notes) Or would that confuse you more? I have notation software, it would take me about 10 minutes to rewrite measures 32 and 33. Or maybe we should all record our playing of these two measures. It was extremely helpful to hear Croatian Rhapsody played slowly, perhaps the same would go here.

Monica, your Zen philosophy is a good way to approach it I think. Just play it, do what you can and put in a little time on that section. Don't expect results, think of it as a keyboard meditation. Because you are learning just by doing that, and you're right, you have to work on stuff that just feels impossible if you want to advance beyond the level where you currently are. It's that way with any learning, piano, foreign languages etc. We all have to work just above the level we're at or we will never move up.

Ok, now get me off this keyboard and over to the black and white one because after all this pep-talking-- at least, that's what I mean it to be! I'm going to have to put my money where my mouth is and post some recordings!

One more random thought, not directed at anyone in particular.

One of the things that makes it so hard to play a section like measure 32 is that we have to play it slowly at first. But it doesn't sound right played slowly. On top of that, this is a famous melody that we all know, and David has done something unique with it (which is one reason why we all want to play it.) But the uniqueness is hard for us to recognize, and doubly so when we're playig slow. So one of the first things we have to do is re-learn this melody, with David's twist, at that slow speed. Which is why I said early to stop listening to David's playing on the CD, because it's too fast, we have to get that speedy version out of our heads. Only at that point can we begin to really practice it. And then, after that point, we'll be ready to go back and listen to David's playing at tempo and use his playing as a guide for our own playing...

End random thought.

I would have said the exact same thing if I had Shiro's talent for explaining things.

For some difficult passages, I usually start to learn them without the metronome (just to get the notes under my fingers)...then slowly shape the notes into something that closely resembles the correct timing...then start to count it (or clap it) out loud...then start the metronome at a slow tempo...then gradually work the metronome up...then abandon the metronome & play it from within.

Like other pieces we struggle with, it simply doesn't sound right until we get them up to a reasonable tempo.

Ok, after much fighting with Box.net (is it just me or does that thing always take more time than it should?!) I have uploaded two clips:

GRYMG RH 32 to 41 with metronome

GRYMG RH 32 to 41

On the recording with the metronome, I have the metronome set to MM=72, but I'm having it click 8 times per measure, so the true tempo is MM=36, Monica, that's waaay less than half tempo! Also, I have the metronome set to ring every 4 clicks, so it rings at the beginning of the measure and in the middle.

In the recording without metronome, I'm playing a little faster, but not much.

Both of them sound pretty bad, but it's a start. Maybe next time I can do HT...

Oh, Jeff, I must have been fighting with box.net while you were posting! YOu're always so sweet, saying "talent" where most people say "wordy" :p

My teacher always says that no matter what the final tempo (even if you're aiming for 120) things always sound better if you can get it up to at least MM=72. I always think that's interesting, but I've noticed that 72 ends up being a sort of turning point, once I can get up to that speed, things are much more enjoyable! (And remember, I'm currently playing at what is effectively 36, so I still have a long way to go...)

Ok, who's going to post the next recording?

ShiroKuro, those don't sound bad at all to me...it's clear you've got the rhythm down!

I think what makes that section hard for me is the jazzy rhythm with notes falling on the off-beat. (I'm sure there is a more correct music theory way to express that, but danged if I know what it is.) These kinds of rhythms are a huge stumbling block for me and accounts for why I fail miserably at Brickman songs like Lake Erie Rainfall and Edgewater (which is full of off-beat rhythms) and why I find pieces like Cristofori's Dream and Overcome infinitely easier.

But I will keep plugging away. My version of measure 32 sounds much like yours, so I think I am on the right track, phew!

Monica,

These "off beat rhythms" are more difficult for sure, but they really are a lot of fun to play once you get them (they will probably become your favorite part of this piece to play).

My first and second recital pieces contain a lot of these "off beat" notes. Havah Nagilah has them from beginning to end, and I have to say that it's these off notes that make Havah Nagilah fun for me to play (well, working on it anyway).

At first I thought this was "syncopation", but I'm confused about that now. I just looked up the definition & it says "A shift of accent in a passage or composition that occurs when a normally weak beat is stressed.", which is not the same thing as what we're talking about is it?

Monica, thanks!

I would call that a sort of jazzy rhythm, because there's a lot going on on the upbeat, and the "backbeat of the upbeat" (where things happen on the last beat of a set of 16th notes.) I agree, things happening on the beat are much easier to work with. You know what else has lots of upbeat-notes? George Winston's Canon.

Jeff, I think I always use the word syncopation wrong too, because I always think of something as syncopated when there's a lot of interplay between the left and right hands, where the two hands play in between each other's notes. Actually that might be ok to call syncopated.

I also looked up syncopation in my music dictionary and it says something similar: "The placement of accents on weak beats or weak portions of the beat." I think it helps to think of not just a literal accent, but if there's a rest and then a note, that note is automatically accentuated. So in most music, things start on the downbeat, and the strong beats are beat 1 and 3. If there's a rest (or a complicated group of 16th notes and dotted notes etc) then it sounds like more is happening on beats 2 and 4. It's like a lot of jazz music that starts on "and" (as in one and[/b])

Or, I think the same goes if you divide up a quarter note into 16ths, because then you have 4 "beats" and if the action is happening on the 2nd or 4th 16th note (which would normally be a weak beat) it sounds syncopated.

So I think for the measures we're talking about, having that dotted 8th note and 16th note pattern makes is syncopated because there's action where there normally wouldn't be.

Hmm, I wonder if I'm right? Who can we get to read this and confirm it? I'll ask my teacher, but I know she'll say "oh, I don't know anything about jazz"

Thanks for those recordings, this will help greatly.

Ditto Psycho Shiro,

Those recordings will help a great deal as we get these measures up to speed. I looked at the music while listening to your recordings and it sounds to me as if your timing is precisely accurate with the metronome. I agree with your strategy of learning it precisely with the metronome before playing it freely by the way. I think if you first have a precise command of the notes you'll be in an even better position to play this with "freedom".

Why is it that these measures are not giving me any serious technical concerns, yet I'm still doubting my fingering for the right hand in measures 23-31?

Jeff, the measures aren't giving you trouble because you've been through Take Five! But if you're doubting your fingering for the other measures, there could be two reasons for that. 1) You're human and we all doubt ourselves. 2) The fingering for this piece is not at all intuitive. When I played through this HS RH, I found that more than with other music, this piece does not just roll off the fingers. I am going to have to go through and write in the fingering for almost all of it!

I am just off to work, but when I get home I'll play through 23-31 and see what fingering I can come up with so you can compare it to your own Jeff. Have you decided fingering for 32-41? If you don' mind, type that in too (and I'll add mine) so we can all compare.

So far we have had 3 different fingerings for measures 23 & 24, so it will be interesting to see if Shiro matches one of us or comes up with yet another fingering!

Ok, I'll try to write out my RH fingering for measures 23-24:

measure 23
1-2 5 1-5 1-4 1-5 1-4 3 2

measure 24
1-3 4 3 4 1-5 2 3

One thing I do is slide my pinky back under my 4th finger when going down, or I'll let my 3rd finger "walk over" my 4th finger going up. I do this in several measures from this section all the way through 40. Ok, here are so more (there is al ot of repeating here, so I'm not putting in every measure, hope that's not too confusing)

measure 29
1-4 1-5 4 3 2 1 3

measure 30
1-2 4 3 2 1-5 2 3

measure 31
1-4 3 4 5 1 4 3 2

Does this make sense?

Jeff, after a quick look at your fingering (on the previous page of this thread) and mine, I think the main difference is measure 23 (and that pattern where it comes up in other measures.) I start the second half of the measure with my pinkie, that lets me play the first half and second half of that measure as two distinct groups, which I think is important for this piece and the way DN is phrasing it.

I'm not saying my fingering is better than yours, I'm not sure that it is. But if you feel doubtful, it might be because your fingering doesn't let you express those phrases the way you want. Remember, choose fingering not just because it gets you to the next note, but because it sets you up for the next group[/b] of notes.

Just a thought...

I will have to look at this, some of the musical phrases with my fingering are not as expressive as I want so maybe I need to try a new route.

Thank you Rocky, ShiroKuro, and Psychopianoman for indulging me!

It is an interesting comparison for measure 23:

Psycho, Shiro, and Opus developed the same fingering pattern for the first half of the measure.
Rocky and Shiro developed the same fingering pattern for the second half of the measure.
Rocky developed unique fingering for the first half of the measure.
Psycho, and Opus developed unique fingering patterns for the second half of the measure.

Measure 23:
Rocky:
1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-5 * 1-5, 1-4, 3, 2
Shiro:
1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-4 * 1-5, 1-4, 3, 2
Opus:
1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-4 * 1-3, 1-4, 3, 2
Psycho:
1-2, 5, 1-5, 1-4 * 1-3, 1-3, 2, 1


I can appreciate Shiro’s explanation for starting off the second half with finger 5:

That makes a lot of sense to me, and I feel like I’ve learned something new about piano fingering technique today. Shiro, put this concept on your "fingering guidelines" list if it's not already on it.

Jeff, I haven't shown this fingering to my teacher yet-- and if I don't get over this cold I've managed to get, I may have to cancel my next lesson! But I'm really curious to hear what she'll say about the fingering I've come up with.

Where was that list I made of fingering guidelines, where I quoted you and added to it? My head is really fuzzy right now, but I'll see if I can find it. If you remember, please tell me.

I keep forgetting to print this thread out so I can compare all of your fingering suggestions to mine, but I'll try to do that tomorrow.

I am actually making progress on this piece, and that is a highly gratifying feeling! (Considering that I am just about ready to give up on Linus & Lucy, and have hit a solid brick wall on Edgewater.)

I can now play the whole piece HT, of course much slower than the suggested tempo and with a few hesitations here and there. But the good news is that this arrangement sounds very nice even when played too slow.

I'm beginning to think it's not an unrealistic goal to have this piece performance-ready by Christmas, phew!

Monica, great job! You're much further along than I am. I'm only doing HT for 32-40, and HS for 21-32, plus a little bit of working on the first part. It's funny how hard it is to play with one hand (the beginning section) I always jump down a line too far because I'm so used to looking at the grand staff.

Monica, how is 32-40 coming? How about past 40, any advice, what's difficult there?

I've got the rhythm down on 32-40, it's just very very slow. My brimming optimism about this piece was taken down several notches this morning when I listened to David Nevue's rendition another time and it hit home once again that he plays it very very fast!! It's going to take me a long time (possibly never?) to get up to that pace.

After 40, the hardest thing for me will be to do the "faster and faster" part on 51-64. He is really flying toward the end of that section, and it's not the easiest fingering for me to go that fast. I guess it will just be a matter of practice and practice until I have those notes down cold and can concentrate on speeding it up.

This is one reason I want to make sure my fingering is the most efficient and least stress inducing. You hinted at the other reason...for me, I know I'll have to practice this over & over. When I practice something over & over, I must have good fingering that doesn't cause my fingers/hands to hurt.

Monica, after one entire month, I only just recently got the first 2 & 1/4 pages of the Croatian Rhapsody up to a little more than half tempo, but playing it now, slowly working up the tempo is pure pleasure. You'll get GRYMG to to "pleasure point"...don't get discouraged (we need you in this group, you've got lots of experience playing David Nevue!)

If I may, let me use a "home improvement" analogy. Say you're going to paint a room or kitchen, before actually painting it and making it beautiful, you should spend time cleaning, sanding, filling in holes with spackling/wood putty, sanding those, taking off hardware, cleaning again, etc.. THEN you're reading for the actual painting. Preparation work is crucial to a nice looking and professional paint job, but the painting is really the easier part. Same thing for learning new music, we're on the "preparation phase" which is more cumbersome & difficult.

(Shiro has had too much cold medicine & I've been smelling paint fumes for too long....yes, been painting lately)

I like your home improvement analogy, Jeff, and ShiroKuro should include that in her book.

But not to worry; I'm not discouraged and will stay in this group. (It's the Linus & Lucy group I'm ready to drop out of!) In fact, I think that I have already hit the "pleasure point" with GRYMG; it's such a beautiful arrangement and sounds good even when played slowly and awkwardly.

Jeff, I'm glad I'm in good company!

Monica, the other thing to remember is that, you don't have to speed up the last part. What you do is figure out how fast you can play, what's the fastest you can play it. Then that is not[/b] the speed that you start out with. You start out slower so that when you get ready to play past 51, you can speed up to your fastest speed. This song will sound lovely even if you don't play it at David's tempo, but by saving your fastest tempo for the end, you'll still be able to apply the increasing intensity that makes David's performance so compelling.

I on the other hand, have not been listening to David's recording, so I have conveniently forgotten that it gets so fast and am just living in a dream world thinking that I've really picked up speed! :p

Who is still working on this? I am still on the first two pages, basically stuck at 32 through 39. I will toy with it one more week befor I start doing my own thing to it because the 3rd and fourth page are easy as the first after that.

What is everybody else doing with it? Have not heard from a few of you in a while.

I'm chugging away! Of course, I'm not practicing it efficiently... I just love this piece so much that I play it, rather roughly, from start to finish, rather than focusing on a small section at a time and concentrating on getting the smaller sections perfect.

I still think the hardest part is just going to be getting it up to speed.

Let me ask y'all a question: What fingering are you using for the left hand in measure 59? I'm having a very hard time moving up and down quickly enough. My other stumbling block on this page is measure 64, where he has us playing an octave E and then jumping down to the Bs. Since that part comes where you're supposed to be going very very fast, I am very very close to wimping out and just playing the low E as usual.

I have to admit I have only done a tiny bit of work on this piece. I actually started working on another of David's christmas carols which I am finding easier to play.

59 left hand: 5, 4-2, 2-1, 4-2

64 right hand: just practice jumping between E and B doing the normal octave stretch with pinky and thumb

The hardest part about these two measures is not the speed in which you move but how you execute the movement. It actually takes a very relaxed light touch from the hands with the arms bringing the weight down. I stiffen the wrist and lock the fingers in place.

In both measures for me I do not focuse on moving into position but rather landing in position. Less left to right and right to left but more like a figure skater being thrown into a triple twist. More of a hop. More of an arch movement for me.

Does that make sense?

Which one? I am thinking of doing silent night as it souns simple, maybe.

yeah, but the last time I went ice-skating I cracked my tailbone.

Thanks for the fingering recommendation. I hadn't thought of trying it that way. I'm not sure I can stretch the 2 and 4 that much, but it's worth a shot.

I do not think I explained myself well. On 59 I use the pinky for the B

For the F an B I am using my ring and index finger

For the B and F I use my index and thumb so that the index stays stationary so you can go right back to the first F&B combo with your ring and index finger.

This only causes you to do one jump from the first B and land in the final resting place for the rest of the measure.

Yes, it is Silent Night. It isn't really too difficult...not that I can play it easily, but I do think I will be able to play this one...not so sure about GRYMG

No, you did! I just answered from my downstairs computer where I was envisioning the keyboard. Once I went upstairs and tried it out for myself, I discovered the stretches really aren't that big... and your fingering is definitely the way to go. I had been playing the last three quarter note chords all with 4 and 1, and that was requiring me to move my hand around a lot, which was hard to do at such a fast pace.

rocky, now you've got me all intrigued to try Silent Night and boost my Christmas repertoire to 3 pieces. [must...resist...temptation to order more sheet music.]

Sorry Monica!! Resistance is futile!!

I can not resist playing or buying this music. If it were not for his music I most likely would have given up sheet music alltogether.

I am glad I could help you Monica. We have got to get this piece down sooner or later. I will be back at it tonight. I still find it addictive to play so I will keep at it.

How about a progress report, everybody?

I'm at the point where I can play it all straight through, despite a few measures that I still bobble on. (Even with your fingering suggestion, psychopianoman, I still have trouble playing the LH on measure 59 at tempo.) Now I'm mainly working on pace and expression.

It must not sound too good, though, because I was practicing it today and my husband got up and shut the door to his computer room, which usually he doesn't do. But he also hates it when we play Christmas music before Thanksgiving, so maybe that's why.

If and when I ever get a usable recording of my recital piece down, I'll try to post a progress recording of GRYMG.

In the meantime, I'm just very grateful that I also downloaded "Wonderland," which is INFINITELY easier!

I am having trouble on the tricky sections with the tied and dotted notes. I am still messing with it, just not too mush. I am at about 10 min. 3 times a week.

I am in a holding pattern (that sounds so much cooler than saying I haven't made any progress at all!) But now that I've gotten some other things out of the way and have finall made some progress with my Bach, I'm hoping to get back to actually working on this piece. Thanks for resurrecthing this thread Monica!

I've put it aside and have been concentrating on Silent Night....which I've made some progress with.

I've put this piece aside for abit because I just can't get into the "Xmas mode" in this hot weather..lol

Okay, I'll fess up. I'm also in a holding pattern for this one.

1. Other Piano Distractions (recital, etc..)
2. Difficult to play Christmas music when it's this hot.

I'll probably pick this back up sometime in September.