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In my case I had had my teacher play it for me and I saw that he had used his right hand, so I can't take any credit for having figured it out. JF, it's no wonder you don't need a teacher.

After having dealt with Prelude in C Minor at my lesson today, I talked my teacher into letting me skip forward to the Moonlight Sonata. I'll probably regret it, but I am anxious to try something serious, and I think I have most of the tools, but we'll see.

Page 3? There's only 2 pages alloted for this piece in my All-In-One book. The figure is played again, but after the D.S. al Fine on this same page.

Well, that remains to be seen in the long run. I've allowed for the possibility that as I move into more difficult repertoire some day (perhaps sooner than I would wish) I may be forced to give some serious consideration to engaging a teacher, if only on an occassional basis, to help with more complicated techniques and the finer points of artistic interpretation (especially with Classical works) - and learning the best ways to accompany singers and other instrumentalists, which I would like to be able to do in a very professional manner some day.

Go for it Bob - good luck and have fun!

Regards, JF

Oldfingers...hmmm...the moonlight sonata. I am still working on the 1st 1 1/2 page. I love it, and my teacher said 'the sound was there' (which I took as a compliment), but the big (octave and 9th) right hand stretches combined with the fact that you actually have to play some stuff with the fingers in between...I have the feeling I lack some necessary relaxation somewhere. I feel tension in my hands that shouldn't be there. So I am trying to take care of that issue before going further. The volume stuff is pretty tricky as well. Have to play a loud melody with your right little finger, while playing a soft 'background tune' with the other fingers OF THE SAME HAND! Whaaah!

Oh, and John, I looked at your right hand/left hand passage (then at least I'm prepared when i get there myself). Just looking at it I guess I would have drawn the right conclusion because of that very low D that is dangling at the bottom side of the bass cleff. It's just impossible to play that lefthanded together with the other notes....but you're right usually they make some kind of remark to highlight the 'other hand' thing. We are probably supposed to become good at stuff like this without additional guidance once we got this far.

I am working on the classy rag this week. Special Day is over and done!!

Ingrid

Yes, I think they assume you don't need any guidance anymore. I don't have Book3 (or any book), but they have probably mentioned it before. If you look at Moonlight Sonata, there are plenty of places like this.

As for playing Moonlight Sonata, as Ingrid say, if you are familiar with the things that she mentioned, then I think it is ok, otherwise it might be a little frustrating. But there is always different views on this. Some says that whatever technique you need to learn, you will learn it when you learn the piece. Others say that it is better to learn the technique first (on smaller pieces, e.g.) before you get to the bigger piece.

That sounding out the main melody while playing the "accompaniment" in soft tone needs some time and practice. If you have played piano before and are a restarter, I think it is ok. If you only study from Alfred series, then I would recommend wait till later. Not that I think you cannot do it, but it will be a little frustrating.

When I restarted, I found that my theory, chords, harmony, listening, sight reading etc have improved a lot over the years, so reading Moonlight Sonata is easy for me, so I am doing it. Years ago just the reading of it would have given me headache or caused me to stop.

But it is in Book 3, so of course you can if you want to.

Umm, yeah, sorry. I was looking at the piece from my copy that I used my notation software to print out for my "keepers" notebook. I spread it to 3 pages to make it easier to read on the smaller, 8x10 printed sheets. My bad, for not realizing...

Thanks for pointing out the pitfalls, which I am sure to fall into, but I think I'll try it for a couple of days. It's just that I have reached page 106 with the Ab exercises in front of me and I'm not inspired by the music I see in that section. Nor do I see anything in the remainder of the book that will help me with the sonata. So I really don't have any excuses.

I'm working on the first page and must admit to having difficulty figuring out the chords. Any suggestions?

It is mainly in C# minor (though it is hard to say that the whole is in C# minor because he cleverly changed from one part to another), but as a minor key, you would expect those familiar minor chords.

If you think C (Am rather) key, then you would expect Am, E7, Dm, those kind of keys, and basically you see the same thing except it is in C# minor key. The first measure is C#m inverted, of course.

But there are places where the tune changes to major tune, so you have E, A or A7, B7, Bm. etc.

Then there are place where there is progression. He changes one note at a time and beautiful leads to the next section, like E (inverted), Em (inverted), G7, etc.

If it is difficult to see it at first, just listen to it and feel it first, and close your eyes and don't think about the notes but the feel. They are familiar chords actually, just transposed to C#minor key, and they are often inverted too, so they don't look very familiar.

I am ashamed to admit it, but I looked at the four sharps and was thinking Emajor even though the first chord was clearly C#-. Thanks for getting me off on the right footing. Please stand by as more questions will be forthcoming. You obviously know this piece very well indeed.

Dave, I'm going to press my luck a try for a free piano lesson tonight.

In Cmajor, the chords are Cmaj, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj, G7, Amin, Bmin7 flat 5. What are the chords associated with the relative minor Amin? Alfred's 3 discusses only the three triads Amin, Dmin, E7. How can I figure out the others given the three minor scales?

Bob

Yes, I noticed that large stretch between the low D and the other notes (a 10th or 11th) and there's no way for me to do that

I'm trying my best to finish off "Classy Rag" - I can play all the sections fine and at tempo, but when I try to put it all together there's always some dumb mistake - except that the mistake pops up at a different place each time - maybe it's the overall length, which is 52 measures with repeats and playing the intro as a Coda - but I'll keep beating on it until I get a good recording.

Regards, JF

Hi Bob, while I like to read about theoretical stuffs, I didn't go through music school formally, so my answers might be incomplete (or can be heredetic too).

In general, any chord can go with any chord, but there are certain chords and progressions that are pleasing (and what is pleasing is subjective and cultural too).

But given something like Moonlight Sonata which many find so pleasing, you can pretty much tell that the chords are not strange or eccentric.

I don't know all the chords commonly associated with minor keys, especially since there are natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor (and Beethoven is playing with those in Moonlight Sonata).

But if play these chords going up:
Am E7 Am Dm E7

and these chords going down:
Am G F E E7

They should sound familiar (and harmonious, nothing strange or odd). You can also invert them and play them and in any kind of broken style.

Then if you transpose those to C# minor (or E key signature) and play those, and invert those and play them (as full chord and broken), they will sound familiar too, and you will find them in Moonlight.

Maybe if you try the above as a suggested exercise until you are familiar with the sound, then when you approach Moonlight, you will feel easier (and it is a joy too when you can say, "ah, I know what Beethoven is doing here."

Dave, what do you mean by "going up" and "going down".

Dave, I couldn't agree more. It's really neat being able to understand how the chord sequence affects the trajectory of the overall sound.

Thanks for your generosity in sharing your knowledge with me.

Bob

What I mean is not just playing the chord in root position (although you can too), but play it in some ascending order, for example (the following are notes, not chord)

C E A (for Am key), then
D (E) G# B (for E7)
E A C (for Am again but note the inversion)
F A D (for Dm)
G# B E (for E or E7)

so instead of playing just the chord, you are actually using the chords to make melody too.

Then break the chord in any way you want but do the progression. We are not talking about serious composition here, but just enjoy them, like

For Am, play A C E C E C A E A E C E C, etc. (don't even have to think, just play any way on the notes of Am), then move to E7 and do the same, the move to Am....

And you will be an instant mini-Beethoven. (ok, my strange sense of humor. I am a newbie here, so I hope I am offending anyone especially those doing serious composition. I am just joking).

Just remember that I am not a musician, music major and teacher or anything. I am just a restarter but I never really stopped in the past, and I like reading, including some theoretical stuffs. I am sharing what I know, but they can be wrong or not fully accurate in strict musical terms.

But I am a little concerned that I might be talking too much in an Alfred Book 3 thread though. It might be a little distracting/bothering to some. I don't know if we should move this to a separate thread.... but if no one objects, I don't mind doing it here either.

Dave - I, for one, have absolutely no objections - in fact I strongly encourage you to continue to participate here, including offfering us your ideas about music theory in general, and the application of it to specific pieces we're working on.

At this stage of our developement we probably should be discussing some music theory now and then.

I've worked my way thru both "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory" and "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Arranging and Orchestration" so I know a little about these things now (I'm a certified "Complete Idiot" ) and might just jump into your discussions once in awhile.

Regards, JF

Edited to add that inspite of their titles the two books I mentioned above are, in fact, nicely written and, as introductions to their respective subjects, very informative.

Hey Dave (InMichigan)! The moonlight sonata is part of Alfred's book 3, so don't worry!!

And Oldfingers... also about the monlight sonata:

I didn't mean to discourage you! I am glad you are picking it up, and looking forward to share our progress! (or lack of it, I haven't played it at all the last few days. i am re-polishing my Satie pieces, which I had been neglecting for a few weeks, and I was not glad to find out that that had a significant impact on the quality of my playing. GRRR! Keeping up some limited type of 'repertoire' is not easy. At least not for me.)

Ingrid

I see no problem keeping the Moonlight conversation here, in fact after Fur Elise its on my to do list. I did a watered down version two years ago and look forward to the full version.

Mark...

PS: IngridT, I was toying with a Satie piece at the music store while I was waiting for my lesson and one of the other piano teachers asked me what was the name of the piece and how must she liked it. I only played like 4 measure too...

Dave, I get it, you are just inverting the chords such that you can have a chromatic progression on top to make a simple melody.

When you look at "moonlight sonata" from this point of view, the melody is unbelievably simple, but the chords underneath the melody and the way they are played make it so beautiful.

I've managed to play through the first page very very slowly, but I can handle the 9th so I don't think there is going to be a deal-breaker. But getting all four pages to speed with some musicality will be something else.


I got you into this discussion as a result of my work in Alfred's Book 3. When I got to the last section of new theory for the Ab major scale, I couldn't generate any enthusiasm for the pieces in that section and none of them had anything to do with the sonata, so I jumped forward. So not to worry, it's my fault. Besides, with Ingrid, JF, Mark and me on board, we have a quorum.

Thanks again for your help. I have some more questions but I'd ask then at another time.

Mak is probably with us on theory discussions, and so would be piano4 and Cyborg . . .haven't heard much from those latter two lately though . . .

Currently trying to (1) put the finishing touches on Handel's Minuet No. 1 from the Royal Fireworks Suite and (2) still get a decent recording of "A Classy Rag" while continuing to plow thru the Clementi Prelude piece.

Also started my "concurrent review" process of selected Book 3 pieces & currently hammering "Super, Special, Silly, Stupid, Sucky Song" (or whatever it's called) into submission!

Regards, JF

Historical footnote: Clementi was considered the most highly skilled and technically dymanic pianist of his time - he was a contemporary of Mozart and they once met in a head-to-head competition where it was generally agreed that Clementi came out slightly on top from the standpoint of "dazzling the audience", although it was conceded by most that Mozart was a little smoother, polished, more accurate and with much better improvisational skills (from the book "The Great Pianists" by Harold Schoenberg).

Oh, yeah, I am definitely in favor of the theory discussions. It does help to know how a piece is put together, and it certainly can make it easier to see the framework underneath all the embellishments. I may not always comment, but I read with much interest.