Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Alfred's Basic and ALL in One Adult Piano Course Book #3

Ingrid - good choice for the special summer selection - Tiersen's stuff is good and he's fairly popular here at PW - 1 or 2 of his pieces always show up in each Recital - you might want to listen to some of them.

I'm putting the finishing touches on the spiritual piece "Steal Away", a very interesting arrangement as I mentioned before in a recent post above - I'm sure you won't be surprised that I've devised my own unique way to play it (putting in a D.S. al Fine where one didn't exist before!)

TTigg welcome from me also - we're really anxious to get you and some of the other Book 2ers over here to share and help.

Regards, JF

It's nice to see that TTigg has added some new life to Alfred 3. I check in from time to time to see what happens when a few more people finish Book 3. I think I might have found my niche with the Lee Evan's arrangements. I really love playing from the American Songbook, and after finishing Aflred's, I find that I can actually play the stuff with some musicality. One of these days, if I can ever overcome Red Dot Fever, I'll post one or two of my new pieces. So Ingrid, it's unlikely I will be playing any Satie in the immediate future. Maybe I'll go back to it if I ever tire of these jazzy arrangements I'm playing.

For the record, I still am unable to play Fur Elise properly, at least the third section anyway. My teacher dragged out the metronome today to slow me down. I'm going to stick with it until I get it, so I'm not finished with Alfred 3 yet.

BTW, TTigg, I'm losing track of time, but I think I spent about six months on Level 2 and about a year on Level 3. The effort was well worth it.

OldFingers - good to hear from you as always - glad you enjoy playing the great standards so much - I love them too and will probably head largely in that direction when I finish Alfred, although I really do enjoy playing some classical pieces (currently working my way thru a series of shorter, lighter pieces in the "Essential Keyboard Repertoire" book).

I hope you'll check in here often to kep us updated on your progress on whatever you're working on (including "Fur Elise") and please do share with us some recordings in the future - would love to hear them!

I'm not sure but I think I spent about a year on Book 1 and about a year and a half on Book 2, and will spend at least that much if not more on Book 3 (given the "ambitious section").

Regards, JF

Working Fur Elise, Prelude in A, Prelude in C.

I will be in Alfred 3 for a long time...

Mark - it's not the quantity of time you spend in Alfred 3 but the quality of your efforts in whatever time you do ultimately spend there . . . there is no time limit.

Regards, JF

Well, here's my preliminary take on "Steal Away", which as I discussed above is full of musical "stuff", perhaps more so than just about anything I've run across yet: sections, tempo and dynamic changes, multiple fermati, etc.

I added to the assortment by inseting a D.S. al Fine at the fermata in the 3rd to last measure, which jumps back to the "segno sign" at the beginning of the 9th measure and then continues to the Fine (which is the actual, original end of the piece). It still needs a little polishing here and there but it's roughly presentable:

Steal Away

Hope you enjoy. Please offer up your suggestions. Thanks.

Regards, JF

John,

I haven't played the song yet, and I don't know the tune at all, but to me it sounds as if there's something real strange going on with the timing/beat/rythm. From the 1st bar onwards. I will listen to it again tonight with my Alfreds book 3 in front of me. I'm really curious to compare the notes with what I am hearing....

Ingrid

Ha! If you're trying to tap your foot along with a constant beat, forget it - there isn't one - it's a "freelance" piece, in effect - you're right that there is something strange going on with the timing and rhythm - I warned you about that twice above - with all the fermati (pauses) and chordal "rolls" (where the timing is optional and variable) plus the tempo changes this is a piece that one plays pretty much "as one wishes", and one cannot expect to march in perfect synch to it.

The only place where I messed up a little on timing was at the very end (where the 3rd tempo change is called for) - I was playing from memory and forgot what the next to last chord was! I need to practice that a little more and re-record it.

You'll see when you have the music.

Regards, JF

John,

I put the book next to it, and (honest feedback here) for my taste you are a bit too flexible with the timing. And I don't mean the tempo changes or the fermata's but basically the rythm within a certain phrase or even bar.

Just to mention a few things I noticed from the first bit of the song...the two 8th notes at the end of bar 1 and 2 are supposed to be on the count of 'four-and' (you play left a looong one-and-two-and-three-and, and then the 2 short 8ths on 'four-and'..correct?)

Your 8ths are played earlier then written, starting already somewhere on the count of 'three and'. Especially in bar 2 you can hear it very well if you count along. They also have a kind of uneven swing feeling, of which I wonder if you did it on purpose. To me it sounds a bit un-spiritual-like

Also your rest in bar 4 was a lot shorter then notated (1/4).

I don't mean to sound too straightforward, but because of the things mentioned above , and without having the notes in front of me I felt a bit disoriented rythm wise listening to the start of the piece. And if the tempo then really starts changing, and the fermata's are showing up I really had trouble hanging in there, since I didn't have a real 'base rythm' fixed in my mind from which the changes then happen.

With the notes in front of me I did understand, and there were absolutely long stretches where the timing was perfectly in synch, but for me the start was really confusing. Again, maybe you did a lot of this on purpose, as artistic freedom, but I hope you don't mind hearing how it's perceived by a listener not familiar with the song....



Ingrid (curiously awaiting your reaction!)

John, having the benefit of my teacher's recording, Ingrid's interpretation more closely resembles that of my teacher. In particular there are no swinging 8th notes, they are played right on the beat. Also, the trills are meant to be played a little faster I think, not being arpeggio-like. Finally, perhaps it is your digital piano, but successive notes seem to be too distinct, not having enough legato.

Once I overcome Red Dot Fever, I'll give you the opportunity to return the favour.

Ultimately a matter of opinion or personal taste - if I heard you play I might say that you're too rigid or inflexible




Sorry, I don't hear that - they aren't played as smoothly as I'd like but I don't see anything wrong with their timing - maybe you were just counting too fast - I played this piece very slowly, slower than the Adagio Moderato called for, at about 70 bpm or so.



Again, I don't hear (and I didn't intend) a "swing" feel - actually the entire piece sounds very "unspiritual-like", due mostly to all the added extra musical accoutrements that the authors arbitrarily threw in for technical training purposes



That one's OK, but I short-changed another one later on in the repeated section.



So, you admit that the timing was in synch for long stretches, thus inadvertently admitting that you just might have liked at least a small part of my performance - or wouldn't you go that far?

Regards, JF

Oldfingers - again I didn't intend to play any swinging 8th notes - when I do you'll know it But, if they do swing all the better - after all it is a spiritual! Also, there are no trills indicated to be played in this piece - there are, however 4 rolls which are the LH/RH chords connected with a wavey line which are meant to be played arpeggio-like, holding all the notes thru it's execution, and with a speed at the performer's discretion (which I determined to be fairly slowly in the spirit of the music). Finally the are no legato indications at any place in the music - phrase marks over the RH, but no legato marks, and phrase marks are not, as you know, legato indications - so, if they're not there I don't play them

Now, let me say this - since the long standing procedure here at PW (especially in the Recitals) is to first mention what you like about a performer's playing of a piece and then, second, to offer suggestions and constructive criticism, and since both of you went directly to the second part, may I thus safely assume that neither of you found anything at all to like in my performance?

Regards, JF

John, I'm sorry, I think I have upset you. That was not my intention. Here-to-fore I have not make comments about a person's performance, but I just thought that I could support Ingrid's attempt to provide feedback based on my teacher's interpretation of the piece. However, you are quite right, you can play it however you like.

I was unaware that there was a protocol for commenting on a posted performance. Given that I an now aware of it, let me congratulate you for having played the piece through, having conquered Red Dot Fever. You are miles ahead of me on that score.

Bob

John,

Just like Oldfingers, I didn't mean to be rude, or upset you. And I wasn't aware of any criticism-protocols here at PW.

You asked for suggestions, so (maybe naive) I thought I'd give some. It was really meant to help.

If I had a recording device here you could hear that I am by no means an advanced player. It happens to me often that I've been playing a new piece for a week or more, and am getting used to the 'sound' of it, and then my teacher highlights that at spot A B or C I am playing something quite different then is notated. Huh?? It sometimes really takes a while to admit that 'my' playing, which really sounded OK to me is wrong, in a sense that it's not wat it's supposed to be.

I am glad to have a teacher that puts me back on track regularly. You don't. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that your request for suggestions meant you wanted to hear where you could do better.

I did hesitate to post my message, because I know I am the blunt type, and am easily overdoing things. The reason I decided to 'just do it' is because I've heard recordings from you before, and usually you are quite OK rythm wise. This 'confused-what's the beat' thing I experienced listening, I never had before in any song I heard you play. That's why I thought you maybe had one of those 'accidentally played it differently and got used to the sound' things going on that I do experience myself now and then as well, and hence the thought that you might benefit by one of those teacher-like 'wake up calls'.

Ingrid

Bob - I wasn't upset by your post at all (hence all the grins, etc. in my reply to reassure you of this). My explanation about the standard way typically used here to review someone's performance was intended to educate both you and Ingrid about this, and only since neither one of you submits recordings or usually reviews Recital pieces (not that I've ever noticed anyway). I wasn't trying to "scold" you or indirectly "beg" for compliments.

I was somewhat mystified, however, by (1) your very basic explanation of how, or how not, to play "swinging" 8th notes when I hadn't played any to begin with; and (2) your explanation about how a trill should be played when the music doesn't call for any trills (rolls are not trills - trills are indicated by a horizontal curvey line above a single note and not by a vertical curvey line across both staves in front of chords in both hands usually, and a trll is a rapid alternation of a note with the note immediately above it). You didn't address these two things in your reply.

You were correct about the legato aspect - I went back and looked at the sheet music again and there is a legato indication right at the very beginning of the piece (written out in a word) which I somehow missed... I usually look for the tie-like curvey line connecting notes of different pitch to designate legato playing.

I find it amusing and somewhat tell-tale that the best you can say about my performance is that I completed the piece and that I conquered the red-dot fever. I'm not sure if this is your true assessment or just a negative reaction to you being ofended by my "lecturing" you about performance review protocol here at PW, or both. Now, I'm sorry if I offended you, but the protocol is what it is. again, I wasn't trying to scold you but merely inform you.

Regards, JF

Ingrid - see my explanation about this in my post above in reply to OldFingers. I wasn't upset or offended at all and didn't consider you rude at all.



Yes, I did and I'm sure you did - you weren't naive - are you implying that I was being dishonest in my request for suggestions? Why else would you possibly think that you were being naive?



I'm sorry to hear that that's what sometimes happens to you, and you're apparently still saying that that's what happened to me - that I'm playing something wrong but just won't admit it. But, that's not the case here. My contention is that I disagree with you about your interpretation of this (your criticism and suggestions) it's not a matter of being in denial, but a matter of simply disagreeing with you - please see again my detailed point-by-point explanation in my previous reply to you above.



Again, I did want suggestions about problem areas and how I could play it better, but the ones you offered were not helpful at all (actually incorrect) and I simply don't agree with you - again see my explanation in my previous post replying to you - but why are you saying that maybe you assumed "incorrectly" that I wanted suggestions? Again, you are implying that you are suspicious that I was dishonest in my original request for them.



Once again I must repeat that I simply disagree with your interpretations and suggestions and that no "teacher-like wake up calls" were warranted or necessary. You apparently either didn't really read my previous reply to you or you don't believe anything I said there (apparently any more than you believe that I was honest in my request for suggestions - which is unfortunate).

Regards, JF

I know I've been out of touch for a bit (just not a good few weeks, but that's not relevant). I've been playing and yes, I owe an update. It's coming....

For now, I'm going to weigh in on Steal Away, as I really love the piece and still play it fairly often.

John- It's obvious you put a lot of work and thought into your playing. You play better than I do, that's for sure! But I have to agree with Ingrid and Bob on this one. I, too, am not fond of your interpretation of this one. Not that I would say you are playing it "wrong," as that is a purely relative term, but in my opinion, you have maybe missed the intent of the piece. Yes, there are ornaments and details added to this arrangement for the purpose of review in the book (it is a review piece), but the song remains. It is a spiritual, yes, but not in the same vein as, say, Dry Bones or Rock-A My Soul. When I learned this one, my teacher said this is a slow, quiet piece with a lot of depth and flow. More like a lullaby than a work song. The entire piece should be very legato and connected, including the 8th notes and the rolls. To my ears, you are shorting the legato in too many places, especially the 8th notes. Not really swinging them, but edging a bit toward staccato. This is definitely one where some rubato can work quite well, but not at the expense of the flow and soothing sound of the entire piece.

But, as I say, that is just how I interpret it, and how I have always sung it. YMMV and all that.

Mak - it's entirely possible I did miss the intent of this piece, especially since I've never heard it sung or played - I was strickly going by the music as arranged, with all the added extra "stuff" thrown in - notewise it's a fairly easy piece, but all the changes in tempo and dynamics and pauses were the real challenges with this piece, which I actually took on with quite a relish! I'm not really that good at some of these extras so I looked forward to attacking this piece and improving some of them.

And, yes, it is a "slow, quiet piece with a lot of depth and flow" (as you say) - partly. But it is also loud with lots of hesitation and little flow also - partly. This is called for in the markings. And this all adds to the challenge.

As far as the legato goes I simply blew that by missing the designation (as I mentioned above), but my legato playing isn't too polished so I don't think it would have made a difference in my performance.

I'm sorry you didn't care for my interpretation, but if I really did miss the intent of the piece, well I'll just have to work on it some more and see if I can improve it. Thanks for your comments. Too bad I can't hear someone else's version (especially a teacher0 to get a better idea of the intent and how it should sound.

Let us know what you're working on these days - it really has been too long since we heard from you.

Regards, JF

It's good that you have brought up the issue of "rubato" as it is not discussed in the Alfred Series, but it can profitably be applied to many of the pieces. My teacher brought it to my attention when I was learning the Chopin Etude in Book 2. As he expressed it, "rubato" allows a piece to "breath". I like using it where I can because it allows me to bring my own feeling to the piece as there are no strict rules for its application.

Do you find, that as a singer, you are more aware of temporal phrasing that encourages you to play less "metronomically", (if that is a word)? Sadly my vocal cords span a range of about five notes, after which I have to sing falsetto, which is even worse. I'd love to be able to sing along with some of the songs I am now playing. Lucky you!

Bob

Bob-

Yes, definitely. Phrasing is key in singing. I am always listening (after I get a handle on the basic notes, rhythm and an idea of how the piece is supposed to sound!) for where and how a piece may lift and fall, ebb and flow- how it breathes, if you will. Much easier for me with things that have words, as the words, of course, give you a good start on phrasing. Melodic pieces are often easy to "phrase" as well, since they also have a natural flow to them. Some are harder to get a handle on, but, then again, in my limited experience, the ones that don't present a natural lift and fall element to my ear right away are usually not candidates for much in the way of rubato anyway. And some pieces need a light touch on the bending of the written tempo, and some can take a lot without sounding "off."