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Mark -

I agree with you but don't see that the equation is terribly different for children.

Of course, few children have pianistic goals which probably makes for somewhat less frustration.

I know I'd be a much better pianist if someone did my laundry, cooked my meals and schlepped me all around town.....

Agreed.

Hmmmm...I'd have to think more about that. My initial feeling is that, while many children probably don't have any specific goals when learning to play any instrument (e.g., wanting to compete in Van Cliburn, going to Juilliard a as a violin major), they just want to play whatever instrument like the guy they saw on TV, in a band, in an orchestra, etc. The fact that it takes time and effort just to learn how make a decent sound out of a trumpet or to coordinate two hands on a piano for even simple songs can be very frustrating. While goals could be realistic, their expectations on what it takes to achieve those goals is not. Of course, this probably applies to adults, too.

That's what you have kids for.

Alright, I've said my piece. I'll shut up now.

Brings back the point that few adult beginners and parents are aware of the demands when you wish to learn an instrument. Some idea that profs practice for hours and an understanding that "some" regular practice is needed, but little of how much it does take to play that Mozart sonata facile well.

There are people who start young, do everything right, go to music school, even win competitions, yet they don't "make it." I believe you have to play an instrument because you like playing an instrument, no matter what your age. And it's nice to have goals, but the goals can't be the whole reason for doing it.

Someone here has in her signature line something like: "It's the journey, not the destination."

Well, I started about 2 mos. b/f my 19th b-day [about 2 1/2 years ago], and I'm not doing too badly. I don't have any formal traning, either. I learned on my own and learned many songs by ear. The only problem is that for most of the time I can't get through a song w/o flubbing notes... even when I play from the heart. I get in the zone, but I'm not very relaxed. But I did learn a classical inspired 'Harlem's Nocturne' [Ab/G# Minor] in a few short days b/c of its repetitive chords. But it did have up/down repetitive scales and an long, very fast arpeggio at the end [which went from the middle of the piano to near the top] that I couldn't figure out for the life of me for months how to play. But just recently, I did, [I found out that in the quad notes (4 notes in row) that the lowest note in each was the L.H. melody, and doesn't belong entirely to the R.H.] and I do it as good as any classically-trained pianist. It's my favorite thing to play now. [Even Lang-Lang would be floored.] Since I didn't start young [like the legendary violinist/teacher Suzuki], I can't seem to develop sufficent strength in some of my left fingers even though I use them more frequently [in the L.H. melody] in some songs. [I haven't really learned any classical pieces].

Elicia

Suzuki did not start young. He didn't begin learning the violin until he was an adult. His method does advocate children beginning an instrument as young as possible, but he did not learn that way himself.

Piano again: Right on target... ("It's the journey, not the destination.")

Alright, I lied. I'm going to comment a little more.

Maybe I've taken too many Stephen Covey-type courses, but I think goals *are* helpful to have. They help you plot a course (the "journey") so that you have a direction, aren't wasting your time, and aren't wandering all over the musical map. In short, it's just more efficient.

Obviously, a specific goal might be that you want to play a certain piece within a certain time, or your goal is to be a church accompaninst, or you want to play in piano bars. Then, you could break down the goal into smaller, more specific goals. For example, your first goal might be to find a teacher with the desired background, and you want to do this within the next month. Then, your goal is to learn the major and minor chords and their inversions within the following two weeks. Each of these goals are further broken down, e.g., how are you going to learn the chords? Setting interim goals lets you know how, or if, you're progressing and even provides a sense of accomplishment.

Even if you don't think you have a goal, you probably do. A less tangible goal could be that you want to play the piano just for fun. What does "play piano" mean, and what constitutes "fun"? You might determine that play piano means to be able to play songs from fakebooks, or maybe just improvise, etc. And "fun" might refer to achieving relaxation, or maybe mental stimulation, or playing for others. These, then, are your goals, and you break down how to achieve them the same way as having a goal to play a specific piece by a specific time.

Personally, I can't see having a journey without a destination. Journeys don't just fade away, and at some points along the way they must have a physical or intangible destination. While I believe it's important to enjoy the journey without solely focussing on the destination, not having *some* type of endpoint or accomplishment in mind can lead to aimless wandering with only haphazard chances of getting what you'd like to from your journey.

Maharishi Markb

Hi Elicia,

Learning by ear is a wonderful thing, but it's even better when combined with classical training. What you seem to be missing is the training on technique that allows you to relax, and to build strength and confidence in your abilities. If there's a problem with learning by ear it is the lack of organization to the process. Ear players will often disparage those with more training as not playing with feeling. Well I strongly believe it's a "what you don't know can't help you" situation. I can play by ear, but I also play and compose in both popular and classical styles and know my theory backwards and forwards. The usual advice is find a teacher you can relate to and I hope this message reiterates that message.

I would only add one thing, another thing that often gets lost in playing by ear is learning to practice efficiently. This is especially vital to adults with busy lives. Learn to make the most of your time, every day may be different, but sooner or later there are some things you just have to do such as learning a piece hands separately then putting the hands together, practicing with a metronome, doing exercises and scales (and arpeggios) and learning to read music (preferably sight read). These are the fundamental skills of our instrument that every competent player has developed.

YMMV, but I say this with 20/20 hindsight of playing piano with varying levels of success for over 30 years. I will honestly say it's much better lately having bit the bullet to do this hard stuff.

Of course you must have a destination, otherwise there would be no journey. But, as you have said, Markb, it's all about specific goals.

Yes, have goals, but if you are playing the piano for enjoyment, then you should enjoy what you need to do to achieve them. If you are the kind of person who hates sitting alone in a room for long periods of time, for example, you probably shouldn't have as a goal perfecting some aspect of piano technique (unless you're a masochist).

The destination and the journey are two parts of the whole.

i dont think anyone should feel like they cant ask a certain question or seek for encouragement. ive asked myself that question too, even though i started at age 20 (21 now). i love forums like this because you dont have to feel embarassed or discouraged from asking anything you want, and you can always get personalized encouragement. since there isnt a limit to how many threads are started, i dont feel like anyone who comes here should feel restricted to asking anything they feel like asking. sure, we all know that you can learn to play piano at any age...but some people just come to forums like this because they want encouragement directed towards them personally.

Hi, Steve and Piano again. I believe the reason why Suzuki [forgot his first name] encouraged people to have their children learn music young is b/c [and I agree] the younger they are, the more impressionable they are. The older they are, the more likely they are [or the MORE] they're set in their ways, which is usually by the age of 3-5 on average. I know b/c I have 2 neices and 2 nephews from 7 mos. to 6 years old.

Moreover, I read that [I have Suzuki's book at home] for some odd reason, he could never get him left pinky finger to do exactly what he wanted it to do. [The book also tells of his life story, his views on children and life, etc.] I believe part of the reason is that he was an adult when he took up the violin. It's good to develop the tendons and muscles in the fingers and hands when very young b/c it's easier to build up sufficient strength in them. The sooner, the better.