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#1091788 - 05/08/08 12:37 PM Re: OT gas prices
ROMagister Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 518
Loc: Bucuresti, Romania
All those hydrogen technologies are energy *carriers* not sources. And not very efficient either (except in very large quantities like for the Shuttle). Very much electric energy must be used to break down water (electrolysis) into hydrogen and oxygen... and this energy will come from more nuclear ? coal ? Wind and solar are OK, but quite 'diluted' and not in the huge currently used amounts. Hydrogen can also be made from natural gas (methane) but also with losses in process.

Coal, tar sands and other inferior fossil fuels also accelerate Global warming. Although I've read debate in green circles that the GW problem is overrated, a sort of 'acceptable front' to get the same actions needed for Peak Oil, which is the real problems. They said:
"The only thing worse than Peak Oil is NO Peak Oil".

Still I marvel at the pre-oil, proto-industrial society that made the Silbermann organs, Pleyel pianos and other marvels ... If they made music then (and what music !) then there will be hope after oil too ;-)

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#1091789 - 05/08/08 02:00 PM Re: OT gas prices
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4238
Loc: Arizona.
Dear fellow Americans, Here is a glimpse of what our future transportation will look like!.

Although you may chuckle a bit now, if oil rises to over $200/barrel as projected, you may want to place your order now!.

Sure, you'll arrive to work a bit late everyday with bugs in your teeth but driving a super energy efficient vehichle will make you an instant chick magnet. (Just don't go on any dates on rainy days ;\) ).



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#1091790 - 05/08/08 03:30 PM Re: OT gas prices
gmm1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1674
Loc: Spokane WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by signa:
actually, there's a current technology - fuel cell, hydrogen based, which simply means the engine will run on 'water'. the only thing is, as i read, that it's still in the early stage, and costs too much to build, which means it's not coming to the market soon. [/b]
If Only....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9iWaCMbw60

My question is, the car runs on gas or water....why??? If water worked, why would you ever purchase gasoline again?
_________________________
"There is nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself." Johann Sebastian Bach/Gyro

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#1091791 - 05/08/08 04:03 PM Re: OT gas prices
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
Back in around 1994-95, I saw on TV, Discovery or TLC I believe, about A21 fuel invented by Rudolf Gunnerman. It was tested for a few million miles in commercial trucks, and the results were impressive. Nevada was nearly ready to have A21 pumps at gas stations. Then all of a sudden, A21 disappeared. Wonder who bought the patent and buried it.

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#1091792 - 05/09/08 03:14 AM Re: OT gas prices
polostrings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 216
Loc: Hawaii
 Quote:
Originally posted by mr_super-hunky:
Dear fellow Americans, Here is a glimpse of what our future transportation will look like!.


[/b]
Hilarious! How old is this moped? Do they even exist anymore?
_________________________
Aloha!

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#1091793 - 05/09/08 03:33 AM Re: OT gas prices
polostrings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 216
Loc: Hawaii


Here's my politically incorrect Gelandewagen. It's 15.9 mpg on a good day, about $100 to fill the tank with premium. I love it, it can go up a wall, or go through it ( which ever way you choose).
I'm speeding up progress by oil consumption, therefore forcing technology to be more efficient. :p
_________________________
Aloha!

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#1091794 - 05/09/08 05:06 AM Re: OT gas prices
crusadar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 670
Loc: Middle England
Diesel fuel used to be around 20% cheaper than Petrol (Gas) here until diesel engined cars with increased fuel economy became popular, then to make up for the loss of tax revenue the government made Diesel slightly more expensive than Petrol so that although you got more M.P.G. you still paid he same amount of tax. My wife's car is a French Peugeot 307 Turbo Diesel from which she gets up to 65 mpg, that's Imperial Gallons. There are other advantages of having a diesel engine, i.e., no problems with damp ignition (drive through floods), less likely to get fried if involved in a collision, less/easier maintenance and the engines last a lot longer too.

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#1091795 - 05/09/08 06:09 AM Re: OT gas prices
Late Beginner Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 588
Loc: West Australia
 Quote:
Originally posted by polostrings:
I'm speeding up progress by oil consumption, therefore forcing technology to be more efficient. :p [/b]
Excellent excuse Polostrings. I'll have to remember that one. ;\)

Here's my current contribution to your cause.



Chris
_________________________
Who needs feet of clay? I can get into enough trouble with feet made of regular foot stuff...

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#1091796 - 05/09/08 07:43 AM Re: OT gas prices
Props2u Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Connecticut, USA
We can complain all we want, but the bottom line is prices will continue to rise because it isnt stopping anyone from doing what they normally do. Roads are still packed with cars 24/7, airline traffic still strong, they have NO reason to drop prices. SUV sales are down a tad, no biggie.
I feel bad for truckers. I saw on the news a bunch of interviews with some and they said it costs them over a grand to fill their tanks, they barely make any money and are pretty mad. I heard if they stop delivering for a week it would cause a crisis. They should be threatening to do this more.

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#1091797 - 05/09/08 08:35 AM Re: OT gas prices
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
 Quote:
Originally posted by Props2u:
I feel bad for truckers. I saw on the news a bunch of interviews with some and they said it costs them over a grand to fill their tanks, they barely make any money and are pretty mad. I heard if they stop delivering for a week it would cause a crisis. They should be threatening to do this more. [/b]
Yes - it happened here in 2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_fuel_protest

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#1091798 - 05/09/08 11:17 AM Re: OT gas prices
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21587
Loc: Oakland
Our local bus agency has three fuel cell buses, and there are a number of fuel cell cars that their supervisors use. The problem is the same problem as using food oils for fuel: There is not enough of the materials needed for them to support the lifestyle people have gotten used to in the past century.

These are all methods of making energy portable. There is only one energy source: the creation of the universe. That led to the creation of suns, which became supernovae, which is the stuff we are made of. Just about all of our energy comes from the fusion furnace we call the sun. Petroleum and other fossil fuels are the energy from the sun from hundreds of millions of years past, trapped by plants and compressed by the ages into a compact fuel. That is also an expensive way of making energy portable, but we have not factored in the value of the thousands of years it took for the conversion to occur.

The current high prices are nature's way of telling us we have been wasting its gifts. (If you believe in a supreme being, the current high prices are its way of telling us we have been wasting its gifts.) We have been living lives of unimaginable luxury, so that our children will not have to in the future.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1091799 - 05/09/08 03:49 PM Re: OT gas prices
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1257
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
OOPS!
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1091800 - 05/09/08 03:51 PM Re: OT gas prices
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1257
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
We have been living lives of unimaginable luxury, so that our children will not have to in the future. [/b]
I like that statement a lot. I'm going to use it.

Thanks
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1091801 - 05/09/08 05:35 PM Re: OT gas prices
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4238
Loc: Arizona.
Polostrings:

The moped pictured is a mid 70's model. There are several companies that still make them and they can be purchased new starting in the $700-ish range.

They were never meant to be an only source of transportation for obvious reasons and limitations but they do fill the missing link found somewhere between a bicycle and a motorcycle.

I grew up in Connecticut and spent many summers in Block Island R.I. Mopeds WERE the primary source of transportation since the island is so small (7 miles long, 3 miles wide) and they can go up to 25-30 mph.

At 80-100 mpg, they are insanely efficient and also fun to drive if just putsing around for a few miles. I would think that they would be great for sightseeing in Hawaii.

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#1091802 - 05/09/08 06:35 PM Re: OT gas prices
polostrings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 216
Loc: Hawaii
Late Beginner,

Isn't your car the car in the commercial where the guy is hugging his car, and it hugs him back? \:\) Like that one..

Mr. SH,
Hawaii is too spread out for mopeds. A Harley, or convertible would be better. Funny they are still around. I know scooters are used often in parts of Europe.
_________________________
Aloha!

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#1091803 - 05/09/08 10:08 PM Re: OT gas prices
melissa d Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Cibolo, Texas
How about this as an alternative mode of transportation? zap sedan You just can't go very far or fast.
_________________________
My blog such as it is http://melissasjourneys.blogspot.com

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#1091804 - 05/09/08 10:46 PM Re: OT gas prices
crusadar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 670
Loc: Middle England
originally posted by polostrings:
 Quote:
Hilarious! How old is this moped? Do they even exist anymore?[/b]
When I visit France I see those pedal type mopeds everywhere, they're very popular.

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#1091805 - 05/09/08 11:08 PM Re: OT gas prices
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4379
Loc: Jersey Shore
The Zap car should have coffin handles on the side. Because you will surely die in it, if you drive it in the USA...

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#1091806 - 05/10/08 12:56 AM Re: OT gas prices
polostrings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 216
Loc: Hawaii
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mark...:
The Zap car should have coffin handles on the side. Because you will surely die in it, if you drive it in the USA... [/b]
You beat me to it :p Not only would you save on fuel cost, you would also save on the cost of a casket, it's just the right size.
_________________________
Aloha!

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#1091807 - 05/10/08 07:54 AM Re: OT gas prices
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3575
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Frank:
Does anyone know what the average price per gallon of regular, for example, is when adjusted for inflation? How do they figure that? In terms of it's equivalent cost at some previous time?

And compared to other commodities and services has the price of gas increased at a greater or lessor rate?

In other words, while we may think the price of gas is inordinately (or unreasonably) high, especially when compared to what we were paying for it at some time in the past, how does it compare in that regard to other items and how their price has risen?

And just from the standpoint of the relative costs of a gallon in different parts of the world (as quoted in the news and here in this thread) isn't the price here in the US still somewhat of a "bargain" (if I dare to use that word in this connection)?

Regards, JF [/b]
Anybody have any answers?

Regards, JF
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.

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#1091808 - 05/10/08 10:36 PM Re: OT gas prices
TX-Dennis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 4126
Loc: Texas
I heard a discussion on a local talk radio program where an oilman said that if you applied the inflation rate to the gasoline price in 1960, the price would now be about $4.00 per gallon. We're getting pretty close to that. I have not done the calculations to check how accurate his assessment is, so take it for what it's worth.
_________________________
Dennis

flickr


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#1091809 - 05/11/08 12:16 AM Re: OT gas prices
Mechanical Doll Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 199
Loc: Garden State, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by melissa d:
How about this as an alternative mode of transportation? zap sedan [/b]
Does anyone else hear the clown-car music playing in the background? :p

 Quote:
Originally posted by crusader:
originally posted by polostrings:
 Quote:
Hilarious! How old is this moped? Do they even exist anymore?[/b]
When I visit France I see those pedal type mopeds everywhere, they're very popular. [/b]
This is a little to light on hardware for my peace of mind, but after hearing an exchange the other night from the car and moped in front of me:

Car Driver: Hey, how many mpg does that thing get?
Moped Driver: 90!


I'd definitely consider investing in one for short trips in the spring/summer/autumn.


 Quote:
Originally posted by TX-Dennis:
I heard a discussion on a local talk radio program where an oilman said that if you applied the inflation rate to the gasoline price in 1960, the price would now be about $4.00 per gallon. We're getting pretty close to that. I have not done the calculations to check how accurate his assessment is, so take it for what it's worth. [/b]
I wonder if that statement takes into account that your average new car today gets about 27mpg, whereas the steel behemoths of yore got, what, 15mpg? I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't, but it would affect the price per gallon.
_________________________
Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without. ~Confucius

Music is moonlight in the gloomy night of life. ~Jean Paul Richter

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#1091810 - 05/11/08 01:12 AM Re: OT gas prices
Late Beginner Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 588
Loc: West Australia
 Quote:
Originally posted by polostrings:
Late Beginner,

Isn't your car the car in the commercial where the guy is hugging his car, and it hugs him back? \:\) Like that one..

[/b]
Yes that's the one. It's an affectionate model. \:\) I can't say I still remember to hug it as regularly as I used to, but it still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. It looks like it ought to run on its own self-generated sunshine but, alas, it does require to be fed on a diet of high grade gasolene.

I compensate for my wickedness by not driving a lot of miles in it, and also by having capped my own breeding at one child. So I'll have a very slim line of decendants to gobble through whatever is left of the planet after we've all finished tucking into it.

Cheers,

Chris
_________________________
Who needs feet of clay? I can get into enough trouble with feet made of regular foot stuff...

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#1091811 - 05/14/08 09:30 PM Re: OT gas prices
FormerFF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 476
Loc: Roswell, GA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by TX-Dennis:
One misconception that has been mentioned is that diesel is only more expensive than gasoline because it has become the "in" thing. The truth is that refiners are now required to re-refine diesel in order to get its sulfur content down to that mandated by current U. S. law. This makes diesel, which once was much less expensive to produce than was gasoline, now more expensive to make than gasoline. Another minor factor is that the federal tax on diesel is 24 cents per gallon whereas the federal tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon. Of course, state tax is added to each gallon on top of that, and it varies from state to state.

Yes, I live in an oil producing area. No, I do not work in the petroleum industry. I drive a relatively fuel efficient 4 cylinder vehicle as does my wife. The area where I live, though, is known as the per capita truck capital of the world. It seems that virtually every vehicle on the road here is either a Suburban, a Tahoe, a Hummer, a Ford Expedition, a Lincoln Navigator, a pickup, or a Cadillac Escalade. I would hate to have to buy gas for one of those. This morning I paid $3.52/gallon for gasoline. I did not buy from the least expensive place in town, as I prefer to purchase brand name gas for its higher detergent content versus the generic. Disclaimer: I once owned a pickup truck, but gas was much less expensive in those days. \:D [/b]
The EPA, quoted on BP's web site, estimates the additional cost of low sulfur diesel fuel at 5 cents per gallon: BP report on low sulfur diesel

The real reason for diesel and gas prices: increased demand from developing countries: CNN report on refinery activity
Also, refinery runs are lower than they would normally be, probably because refineries do not like their current margins on gasoline production.

If you go to GasBuddy.com and generate a graph of gasoline prices vs. crude oil prices, you will see that it isn't that the price of diesel is excessively high, but that the price of gasoline is lower than you would expect, considering the price of crude oil.
Historical price chart

Cost only sets a floor for a minimum price. Market price is set by supply and demand. The cost of refining gasoline vs the cost of refining diesel isn't the cause of today's prices
_________________________
Piano self teaching on and off from 2002-2008. Took piano instruction from Nov 2008- Feb 2011. Took guitar instruction Feb 2011-Jul 2013. Can't play either. Living, breathing proof some people aren't cut out to make music.

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#1091812 - 05/14/08 10:12 PM Re: OT gas prices
melissa d Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Cibolo, Texas
Here is another alternative to gas plus it doesn't look like a toy \:D tesla motors
_________________________
My blog such as it is http://melissasjourneys.blogspot.com

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#1091813 - 05/14/08 11:00 PM Re: OT gas prices
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
But the problem with electric cars is the time to charge the batteries: Hours
Compressed Air cars can get their compressed air tanks refilled in ~ 3 minutes. Which is the time it takes to refill our cars today.
Max speed is ~90 mph, already enough to get a ticket. Check it out on youtube .

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#1091814 - 05/15/08 12:54 PM Re: OT gas prices
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
We as a country will never reach a point where we will have some type of "fuel" for free..they will make it so your paying for "something" compressed air..electric charging stations with a special plug or a car that runs on "distilled water"
companies will make you pay for something! \:\(

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#1091815 - 05/15/08 01:00 PM Re: OT gas prices
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
do you think the release of national reserve oil would help the market price?

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#1091816 - 05/15/08 01:57 PM Re: OT gas prices
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by signa:
do you think the release of national reserve oil would help the market price? [/b]
Yes, just a little and also temporarily. Then everything would be back to where it was or worse.

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#1091817 - 05/15/08 02:26 PM Re: OT gas prices
melissa d Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Cibolo, Texas
After Katrina there was a release of oil from the strategic oil reserve that led to a fall of 46 cents per barrel for the price of oil. Given that minor reduction I don't see that it would significantly change the current situation if reserves were released again.
_________________________
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