Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Recording method options: from good to better to best.

It seems the question of how to record a tune on the piano comes up quite often. While this topic has been discussed numerous times already, one thing that seems to be missing from these discussions are the listings of the many methods which are available to achieve these recordings; specifically from good to better to best.

Now, the purpose of this thread is to simply give some of the newer members not that familiar with the various recording options some info to consider BEFORE they go out and purchase their equipment.

Before we go into all the various recording methods, I'd like to make a few (factual) items known which may help in your equipment purchase descision.

In ANY form of recording, two things MUST happen. A microphone needs to be used to pick up or "sense" the frequencies being transmitted and these frequencies (in the form of sound waves) must be stored somewhere for future reproduction. Nowadays, this is usually done via a computers sound card (or the recording device digital soundcard).

Most recording microphones used in audio recording are a pair of condensor microphones (typically setup in the "XY" configuration).

In most circumstances, the pair of consensor microphones need a source of power {usually referred to as "phantom" power). If using a digital recording device (like the Zoom H2, H4), they DO have this power source built into them and if using a pair of condensor mics, the cheapest source of power is usually found in obtaining a cheap mixer...They can be bought for around $50. (I use a Behringer)

The quality or source of the form of power (Zooms or cheap mixer) is usually not that important however the quality of the microphones and storage of information (sound card) definitely is.

Yes, it IS possible to get out an old circa 1980's cassette tape recorder to record and play back your music but it is also possible to cut your lawn with a pair of scissors!. Enough said on that!.

Assuming that an old cassette tape recorder is probably the worst (poorest quality) method to reocord a tune, the next upgrade would probably be using an external microphone hooked up to your laptop or pc. The weak link here is usually the quality of the microphone being used, (as well as lack of stereo) and the potential of a weak (poor quality soundcard).

I must admit that I HAVE heard some incredible recordings using this type of method but in many cases, the microphone and soundcard have been upgraded as well as the addition of some very good software which can make a lesser quality digital recording sound fantastic. I know Mahlzeit is a pro in this area and has some music software that can make an inexpensive digital piano sound like a concert grand. It's all in the software however.

The two most popular recording methods used on this forum are typically the use of a Zoom digital recorder or the use of a pair of condensor mics and an inexpensive mixer to provide phantom power. The option of using a pair of external condensor mics plugged into the Zoom digital recorder is an even better option for current Zoom users.

The Zoom digital recorder is an extremely simple option to use as it already has two built in condensor mics with their own phantom power supply. The only weak link is the quality (frequency range) of the built in microphones.

For Zoom users, they CAN upgrade these mics by simply using better quality external mics plugged in to the unit.

Typical costs for this setup are:

Zoom digital recorder: $300-ish
Better quality condensor mics: $200-350-ish depending on brand/model. NOTE: A very good suggestion from Bob Muir was to use a pair of Rode NT5 mics. They can be purchased for around $300.

If going the pair of condensor mic/mixer setup, you will need the following iteams:

Pair of condensor mics: $200-350-ish.
Mixer.................: $50.00
Patch cords............$25.00 (used between mics and mixer).
Upgraded sound card?...if needed.

Please remember that the best studio recordings made in a proffessional setting almost always use the pair of condensor mics and a mixer. This is done because the quality of a good pair of mics is paramount and the mixer does not only just supply phantom power but can also be used...well, as a mixer!. (Think of a graphic equalizer on a stereo in which the user can increase or lower the bass, midrange, highs etc).

Actually using the mixer AS a mixer can get a lot more complicated but in the begining, using it for just a phantom power source is fine). As your recording experience levels improve, using the mixers functions can really fine tune and equalize your recordings to sound much more proffessional.

typical costs for this setup are:

Pair of good quality condensor mics $200-350-ish
Inexpensive mixer...................$ 50.00
Upgraded computer soundcard?...if needed.

Now, remember (as mentioned in another thread), most digital recorders (Zooms), condensor mics/mixer combo's, even digital camera's and videorecorders CAN produce good quality recordings. The weak link in most recording setups is usually NOT the equipment but rather two other items. ROOM ACOUSTICS, and MICROPHONE PLACEMENT.

Most piano's are not usually "Boomy", "overly bright" or "tinny" sounding; the ROOMS are!.

It is important to realize that room acoustics is NOT something you can get rid of...EVER!. It is something that you MUST try very hard to perfect (or at least get as accurate as you realistically can).

To do this, two things must happen.

1.) Try and find the best placement of your piano to where it sounds the best naturally. Your piano is something that produces sound just like speakers would and the correct placement of the piano (or speakers) is probably the most important thing you can do. Unfortunately, I can only assume that most people place their piano in a room more like a piece of furniture as opposed to what it really is...a source of sound waves.

Of course, we need to be realistic by placing it where we CAN and where it will actually fit and look best. Just realize that where the piano will actually fit and look best may NOT be the best acoustic placement of the instrument in terms of best sound reproduction.

To realize how important proper placement of sound transmission is, take your stereo's subwoofer and place it in the middle of an empty room. You won't get a lot of bass reproduction from it as the sound waves have nothing to reflect or bouce off of.

Now, take this same subwoofer and place it 2 inches away from a corner wall (with either the driver or port facing a wall). You will now notice a significant increase in bass reproduction as it is now properly (acoustically) setup. This is just an example of how significant proper acoustic placement can be so don't go stuffing your piano into a corner just yet!.

The next important criteria is to fine tune or adjust your room acoustics to match your current room conditions.

For example, if your room is very "bright", (as in echos if you clap your hands or yell), you may need to dull down the room a bit by adding carpet or floor rugs. You may even possibly consider heavy curtains/drapes or in extreme cases, possibly adding some foam to the underside of the piano or using frequency absorbtion tubes...[Greg help me out on that one!].

If your piano is very dull/non responsive, you can posibly look at doing just the opposite such as removing carpet and adding a hard wood floor etc. (You may possibly have an issue with your piano in this situation such as soft/worn out hammers or something else.)

The bottom line is this. The "best" system for anyone is the one that the user will actually use correctly and be comfortable with. It does no good to buy very expensive, sophisticated equipment if you will never learn to use it correctly. This is what makes the simplicity and ease of use of the Zoom digital recorder so attractive and like I said, you can REALLY make that setup good by using better quality external mics.

There is no "best" setup as I've heard really good recordings from people using just about every method possible. It just depends on what you are most familiar or comfortable using.

Btw, not to sound like a total hypocrite but I currently don't use any of the methods mentioned above!. I simply hit "record" on my digital piano and upload it onto my computer using Audacity!.

I DO have a very good quality piano as well as recording equipment but obtaining the perfect room acoustics as well as finding the perfect microphone placement is VERY,VERY difficult to say the least!. It definitely CAN be done and you may just luck out or it can take a whole lot of trial and error.

[For the more sophisticated recording people]. The optimum room acoustics and piano placement CAN be found by using a portable osciliscope but of course that would involve hiring an audio reproduction company to come out with the equipment and start doing numerous tests with the piano is several locations]....possibly not the most *realistic* option for most of us!

Anyway, this covers most of the basic information and may give some people a better understanding of how to record using various options.

I can't end this discussion without mentioning how important proper microphone placement and positioning is as well. There are SO many variables when determining proper mic placement that all I can say is to try as many locations as you can, remember where the best spots were and then try to fine tune it.

The most widely accepted piano recording method in using a pair of condensor mics is to place them in the "XY" configuration. See attached photo.



I hope this basic information has been helpful to some and also would like to hear from others as to what setup they use and how it has worked out for them. Everyone must realize that there are a LOT of variables involved and to just be patient.

Cheap equipment setup correctly will always sound better than expensive equipment not set up properly. This is something that you just have to learn/understand and then try your best to get it right.

It is going to take some persuasion to stop me using my tape recorder. What I have heard recorded with these other devices does not exhibit enough clear superiority of sound, convenience and cost to shift me - yet.

I use a high-end Pioneer tape deck and component system (they cost a lot but they seem to last forever) and I simply dangle one stereo microphone through the brass hasp on the underside of the open piano lid so it rests about six inches above the strings.

I have recorded in this way for fifteen years. My piano tuner listened to some and thought it was a commercial recording, and he probably has a much better ear than I do.

So I would disagree that tape is an inferior medium, but admittedly all the equipment does have to be high quality.

You can't be serious there. And without even mentioning the convenience of digital storage - every single time you play your tape its quality will gradually deteriorate.

Honestly, it may be time to let go - donate that tape recorder to the museum and get on with the times

Nice write-up Mr. Hunky. I would like to mention that as far as home studio - the highest quality recording can be obtained by recording via MIDI using a software piano. You won't be introducing any noise - and the samples were obtained by sound engineers in real studios. But of course - you'll have to give up the pleasure of playing on an acoustic to accomplish that.

Ted2:

I respect what you are saying about tape decks and as I've said, the *best* method to use is what works for YOU and what you are most comfortable with.

I have an old Teac reel to reel tape player that sounds really good. The fact is (as Eternal has pointed out) that each and every time you play it, another very slight deterioration of the physical tape (magnetic transmission) has occured.

That's not to say that using a tape deck is not a viable option. As you've said, your recordings sound very good and since that is the goal you are trying to achieve, well, it sounds as though you have accomplished that.

Having said that, using any form of magnetic recording and transmission is very old technology and it may be wiser for a first time recording equipment purchaser to spend $300 on state of the art current (superior...factually!) equipment as opposed to spending possibly more on very old stuff.

Again Ted, you have provided some very useful information by letting others know that there ARE ways to make great sounding recordings using older equipment. This thread is more geared for the members who are about to go out and purchase new recording equipment for the first time however but your feedback is much appreciated.

Yes, agreed, I would obviously not recommend tape to a first-time purchaser. I also omitted to mention that I do convert my recordings into CDs and other digital versions, so wearing out of tapes is not an issue.

The dozen or so recordings I made for the Pianoworld CD are examples of tape recordings, and they seem to compare quite well with the other stuff there.

I suppose, in part, I am lazy and cannot be bothered seeking out people here who could advise me about a new method which is both better and stable. Asking people in the shops here leaves one with the impression that nobody makes home recordings these days and that anyone who seriously wants to is a bit loopy.

But yes, I am most open to positive change, and I am reading this thread with interest.

I hope you're not taking my comment to heart - I was just joking. But I know first hand that it's very hard to break an old habit. Even if it means change for the better.

Allot of recording engineers swear by analog tape because of its pleasing saturation characteristics. But they usually mean reel to reel running at 15 or 30 ips. Ted didn't actually specify but I assume he means a high end Pioneer cassette recorder with dolby noise reduction. These can get between a -60 and -65db signal to noise ratio which is not bad. Dbx nr might get it down to -70db. By comparison, a Zoom H4 will get between -55 and -60db with its internal mics. Which probably beats the built-in sound card and mics in most laptops. But when I tried a Zoom H4 with an external AT825 stereo mic, I got around -72db or so. And with dpa mics, I got around -90db which is quite good and probably better that what most mixers will limit you to, no matter what's on the other end. With the right mics, the Zoom has got just about everything beat on a cost to quality ratio.

Don't get me wrong, though. I do firmly believe in wringing out every little bit of recording quality I can get, regardless of cost. But the flip side is that some might choose to compromise just a little on recording quality and invest a few more dollars in the piano itself. Just a thought.

Far as recording to a PC, you really need a good sound card with top notch converters, even if you have a great mic pre. But one trick I use with a sound card having a digital input, is to use a high quality outboard Apogee converter feeding the spidif input of the sound card. And clock the card from the converter. Another option which is almost as good, is to use an RME FF400 firewire interface which has converters and mic pres almost as good as high-end outboard gear.

Remember, the shorter your recording path, the better you'll be doing. I did a recording session just last month in a recording studio. It was a thousand miles away but I still brought my own 8-channel mic pre, rme ff400, and a PC. And recorded direct to disk. All I used of theirs was their wiring and rooms. I did send feeds to their mixing board, but strictly for monitoring.

There are also things you can do once you get your recording digitized and into the PC, editing wise. Noise reduction, for instance. I use Sound Forge but I noticed even Audacity has a noise reduction function that works off of noise-prints. If you learn how to use this feature, you can often do a 6db to 12db noise reduction that can make a world of a difference to a recording.

Howard

Yes, that's right, Howard. I bought the best Pioneer cassette tape decks available at the time. Decent tapes are very important though; the ones available in department stores here are usually frightful. I too find the Audacity noise reduction feature quite good, although it takes a few trials to get optimal settings, which are usually lower than one is at first inclined to try.

No bother, Eternal. As soon as I find something better in every way, I shall buy it. The difficulty, of course, is verifying for myself that I can produce audibly better recordings in my own lounge according to my own conditions, and that the method and equipment is likely to be as convenient, reliable and stable as what I have at present. While cost is not quite as important a factor, I am not inclined to buy on the basis of advice only to discover I cannot hear any difference.

All that takes time. Once I retire I'll get into it. Right now, the musical ideas are coming so thick and fast that I just want to preserve them however I can.

Howdy Hunkster,

I'm really interested in a set of condenser mics for my acoustic using my Zoom H4 for phantom power. The best I've researched for the price seems to be the matched pair of Rode NT5s. My greatest concern with any externals is the possibility that they will pick up the sound of the pedals or the hammers falling back to whatever it's called that they fall back to. Is this extra sensitivity with externals something that should concern me? I've noticed pedal sounds and fingernail clicking with my Zoom. I sure wouldn't want to make these extraneous noises any louder.

Thanks for the good description above. It's helping my learning curve. BTW, $300. for a pair of NT5s seems unreasonably cheap in today's market. The best I can find is just over $400.

Regards,

Lisztener

Hunkster (love it), your a bit short on audio to digital conversion. You keep mentioning a better sound card but I think it needs to be stressed that without quality audio conversion good mikes are a waste. My advice is get the most expensive condensers AND audio interface you can afford.

But this is what I really want for Xmas:


From: http://www.retrothing.com/2005/09/recording_your_.html